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Even back in 98 the trope of hoarding items in rpgs was well known, so it’s absolutely baffling that they made magic a depletable resource that literally scales down your stats if you use it
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May 6, 2019 07:51
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It makes sense if you think they misdiagnosed the issue as "its hard to replace consumables" instead of "consumables area hedge against future difficulty, so using them makes me anxious" In fairness they probably thought draw was super cool then backed into the design if the FF8 demo is anything to go by
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May 6, 2019 08:23
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romanowski posted:I'm playing FF8 for the first time and I'm not quite sure what to make of the junction system but I've always heard negative things so I'm wondering if there's anything I should keep in mind going into it? It seems kind of overwhelming but that might just be because the tutorials dump a lot of info on you at once. Check Draw lists for every new enemy but don't stress about drawing a lot of the same magic because that's boring, instead learn RF abilities on GFs first because they let you engage with the item system and make combat drops actually useful. Playing cards and making them into items can let you get overpowered fast but if you just refine whatever you get from combat and junction it to stats you should keep up with the curve pretty well. GFs also have a lot of fun abilities but default to learning the crappy +SumMag stuff which just boosts summon damage, so be sure to set a new ability for them every time they learn something.
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May 6, 2019 08:38
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Aithon posted:. this part is particularly important because you can only learn two pages of abilities for each one, and if those spots are taken up by SumMag+10/20/30 and whatever the other useless one is, you can actually miss out on learning some cooler, more important abilities. granted you can make a GF forget abilities and learn the missed ones with an item, but it's way easier to just learn them the first time around. rodbeard posted:I'm not talking about getting every spell or end game weapon immediately which you basically can do if you look things up. If you refine anything at all it completely trivializes a huge chunk of the game. I can't figure a way to slowly accumulate power without basically slowing yourself down on purpose. I feel this is mostly only true for people who already know how to break it though. you'd probably stumble on to tents --> curagas yourself, though that also depends on having three GFs with HP-J and that's not a guarantee for a lot of the game, I don't think. but for most of the truly end-level spells, you'd have to sit there grinding out cards or materials to get 100 spells for three people or drawing enough magic to refine up, and you'd have to look up where to do it.
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May 6, 2019 10:24
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There are also various stones that you can refine spells out of that monsters drop every now and then.
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May 6, 2019 10:37
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Leal posted:There are also various stones that you can refine spells out of that monsters drop every now and then. Yeah, that's what I was talking about when I said combat drops. Just fighting random encounters and refining whatever you get will give you stuff like 100 stocks of basic elemental magic, status magic, Aero, Regen etc. that won't break the game but will grant you decent stats for the point in the game you'll be in.
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May 6, 2019 11:09
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Not a Children posted:Even back in 98 the trope of hoarding items in rpgs was well known, so it’s absolutely baffling that they made magic a depletable resource that literally scales down your stats if you use it Unless you're casting your junctioned ultima spells you won't even notice the stat loss if you cast your spells sometimes
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May 6, 2019 11:27
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morallyobjected posted:this part is particularly important because you can only learn two pages of abilities for each one, and if those spots are taken up by SumMag+10/20/30 and whatever the other useless one is, you can actually miss out on learning some cooler, more important abilities. You can’t miss out on any abilities that a GF would naturally learn. You could only run out of room the way you’re talking about if you teach GFs abilities with items.
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May 6, 2019 13:49
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Epi Lepi posted:You can’t miss out on any abilities that a GF would naturally learn. You could only run out of room the way you’re talking about if you teach GFs abilities with items. I would swear that wasn't the case, but it's been years since I've played out so maybe that's what I did. either way it's still such an odd choice that those abilities are what they default to learning
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May 6, 2019 13:55
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Not a Children posted:Even back in 98 the trope of hoarding items in rpgs was well known, so it’s absolutely baffling that they made magic a depletable resource that literally scales down your stats if you use it This reminds me of FFXV, and the fact that I actually didn't cast a single spell in the entire game. why did square think hording spells is a good idea? why does square still think hording spells is a good idea?
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May 6, 2019 15:29
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Optimizing refines to get super OP is probably really boring, but using incidental refines and card mod to get moderately overpowered is cool and good because combat in FF8 just isn't good.
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May 6, 2019 15:32
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If you play FF8 like someone vaguely human it can be really fun. Treat draw like steal, one guy does it a once or twice an enemy while everyone else beats them down. Prioritize refine but don't grind AP just for it and don't go way out of your way for materials to use. Try to card but don't sweat if the enemy dies while you're trying to whittle it down. You'll end up OP and maybe even have fun doing it.
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May 6, 2019 15:47
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If I was in charge of designing an FF8 remake, here's what I'd do: -Get rid of spell charges entirely. If you have Fire, you can use it as many times as you want. -When you equip a spell to a stat slot, it gives you the full amount that you would have with 100 charges. -If you equip a spell to a stat slot, you can't use it in combat. -You have a limited number of slots for spells that you can use in combat. Like 4 at the start, but it can be upgraded through GF abilities. -If you draw from an enemy, it can no longer use that spell. Though this might cause them to use even more dangerous abilities... I think that would get rid of a lot of issues that the system has. I'll be expecting my check in the mail soon, SE.
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May 6, 2019 16:05
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Probably thirty percent of my problems with FF8 were that I was eleven and didn't know what the word 'junction' meant and the tutorials weren't great. Like once someone else explained it to me as 'you can equip spells' it made a lot more sense.
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May 6, 2019 17:46
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YggiDee posted:Probably thirty percent of my problems with FF8 were that I was eleven and didn't know what the word 'junction' meant and the tutorials weren't great. Like once someone else explained it to me as 'you can equip spells' it made a lot more sense. This was 100% me. Even after the tutorial section I had no clue what the gently caress was going on or why
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May 6, 2019 18:01
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Digital Osmosis posted:This reminds me of FFXV, and the fact that I actually didn't cast a single spell in the entire game. Spells were incredibly useful in FFXV as a "gently caress off" button whenever an imperial dropship plopped twenty magitek dudes down in front of you. Ain't no one got time for that!
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May 6, 2019 18:29
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DrNutt posted:Spells were incredibly useful in FFXV as a "gently caress off" button whenever an imperial dropship plopped twenty magitek dudes down in front of you. Ain't no one got time for that! Ragnorok, right bumper, hold down Y. Takes twenty seconds and you get AP!
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May 6, 2019 19:06
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Mega64 posted:Ardyn is a thinly-veiled personification of Arby's. FFXV is a fantastical retelling of the fast food wars, thus the Americana backdrop. Ardyn does have an interesting reveal in the game in that he just looks like some fuckwad but if you’ve seen the movie you know he’s bad news the moment you see him and it’s a really oh poo poo moment the characters aren’t clued in on.
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May 6, 2019 19:38
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Be Depressive posted:Ardyn does have an interesting reveal in the game in that he just looks like some fuckwad but if you’ve seen the movie you know he’s bad news the moment you see him and it’s a really oh poo poo moment the characters aren’t clued in on. Just like Arby’s.
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May 6, 2019 20:22
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Mega64 posted:Just like Arby’s. On the surface it's just a quirky roast beef sandwich. But if you've been around the fast food block you know it's nothing but trouble. Somebody post the menu roast beef vs real life roast beef next to normal Ardyn vs daemon Ardyn.
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May 6, 2019 20:32
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zedprime posted:If you play FF8 like someone vaguely human it can be really fun. So, exactly the opposite of the way 95% of JRPG players play. If your game systems rely on players fighting all of their basic gaming instincts to be "balanced" or "fun", the it's the game's fault for failing.
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May 6, 2019 23:23
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Schwartzcough posted:So, exactly the opposite of the way 95% of JRPG players play. If your game systems rely on players fighting all of their basic gaming instincts to be "balanced" or "fun", the it's the game's fault for failing. on the other hand, you have games like XIII where the game goes out of its way to teach its system and you still have people who turtle and heal without using staggers because people refuse to play any other way than their fallback methods sometimes. also I would be surprised if most people sat around drawing fires from blue bugs in Disc 1 just to get 100 for each character. FFVIII is only easy to break when you know how, and there's plenty of evidence from people on this very forum that many people didn't understand the system very well. most people probably DID treat draw like steal on the first go around. you don't want to be sitting in a battle with no offensive output, because that's boring.
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May 7, 2019 01:02
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For some people, the monsters are the opponents and the challenge is fighting them on even ground. For others, the mechanics are the opponent, and the challenge is making each and every variable yours to manipulate. In the latter case, monsters are just for keeping score.
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May 7, 2019 01:30
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Be Depressive posted:Ardyn does have an interesting reveal in the game in that he just looks like some fuckwad but if you’ve seen the movie you know he’s bad news the moment you see him and it’s a really oh poo poo moment the characters aren’t clued in on. He's so ridiculously overdesigned and with such a sinister theme that I'm genuinely stunned if someone didn't peg him as the villain from his first scene. I feel like he's the most obviously villain-coded villain in the series that doesn't make their entrance with actual on-screen murder.
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May 7, 2019 02:10
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just put a little more time into FF8 and early reports suggest that squall is a bitch rear end loser. I will return when I learn more
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May 7, 2019 02:12
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Cleretic posted:He's so ridiculously overdesigned and with such a sinister theme that I'm genuinely stunned if someone didn't peg him as the villain from his first scene. I feel like he's the most obviously villain-coded villain in the series that doesn't make their entrance with actual on-screen murder. Kuja Kefka Seymour for gods sake
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May 7, 2019 02:13
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Cleretic posted:He's so ridiculously overdesigned and with such a sinister theme that I'm genuinely stunned if someone didn't peg him as the villain from his first scene. I feel like he's the most obviously villain-coded villain in the series that doesn't make their entrance with actual on-screen murder. Does literally anyone besides Ardyn from the Empire even count as a character? Gestahl got more characterization and focus than the FFXV Emperor. So did Vayne and Larsa's father. And of course if you are at all familiar with the FF series you should be aware of the long tradition of "Evil Empire gives way to single super powerful force of evil." Happens in FF2, 4, 6, 7, 8, 9 and 15. ( Not sure if I should count XII and XIII as being part of this trend since while Barthandelus is the real villain in XIII and he's out for his own ends, Cocoon never stops standing in your way. And in XII the Empire as a whole remains the primary antagonist I'd say and Vayne is just its leader.) NikkolasKing fucked around with this message at 02:24 on May 7, 2019 |
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May 7, 2019 02:22
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Calaveron posted:Kuja I've forgotten exactly when Kuja turns up, but my memory says that it's either when helping Queen Brahne be real murderous or after killing Freya's hometown. Kefka's first appearance is being ineffectual in a desert. They actually do really well at downplaying him for most of the World of Balance. I admit Seymour does either beat Ardyn or get close, depending on how genuinely you read his early appearances. He could just read as an edgy later-game ally the first time he turns up.
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May 7, 2019 02:22
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Seymour and Ardyn are in the category of "we're pretending you don't know they're the bad guy but it's REALLY REALLY OBVIOUS they're the bad guy." Kefka got an upgrade from "Crazy Underling you care more about killing than the game's actual bad guy" to Actual Bad Guy, and I can't recall if similar happened with Kuja, but they were clearly on Team Not-Good from the moment they appeared and the story didn't pretend otherwise.
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May 7, 2019 02:32
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Legit honestly, the best way to play FF8 is just to read Cool Ghost's LP. His insight into the story makes it not seem like a plodding, convoluted mess, the characters appear to have character, and you don't have to deal with a combat system that consists of "spam fight/limit".
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May 7, 2019 02:37
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To us, the final fantasy veterans, we instantly realize Ardyn is the bad guy because he had a theme and is weirder dressed than anyone around him. To Noct and his buddies he's just some hippy who might sell them weed for their camping trip. I think they call this dramatic irony.
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May 7, 2019 03:14
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Ardyn the weed smoking yuppie granduncle. Out on the road today, Noct saw a Deadhead sticker on a Cadillac. A little voice inside him said don't look back, you can never look back.
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May 7, 2019 03:25
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Was Ardyn's car really pink with a stripe, or were my colors off?
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May 7, 2019 04:00
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zedprime posted:If you play FF8 like someone vaguely human it can be really fun. Treat draw like steal, one guy does it a once or twice an enemy while everyone else beats them down. I tried that and ended up bouncing off the game a couple of times until I stumbled on to something to cheese all the fights with. My second playthrough I just did something broken from the start and just had no encounters on as soon as possible. The batshit story is a lot more fun just playing cards and fighting bosses.
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May 7, 2019 04:45
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Hector Delgado posted:Was Ardyn's car really pink with a stripe, or were my colors off? Looks red to me.  Also I think Ardyn owns hard, because the game has made me hate him more than any other FF antagonist so far, purely by one critical stab and more loving smug than should be possible for a single human to exude. I think Barthandandanabanalus from 13 was a close second because he was such a smug dick but ultimately he just sat around in a chair and I wailed on his rear end hard. Kefka is obviously GOAT but my brain tends to segregate 1-6 and 7-15 into kind of their own things and I don't really think I can meaningfully give comparative crit between the earlier and later games.
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May 7, 2019 05:01
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romanowski posted:just put a little more time into FF8 and early reports suggest that squall is a bitch rear end loser. I will return when I learn more He is, but does at least show actual character development over the course of the game. Most of them are whiny bitches at the start tbh, they're meant to be dumb teenagers who spend their time going to school and having stupid beefs.
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May 7, 2019 07:13
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DrNutt posted:Looks red to me. My personal favorite villain is Exdeath, for reasons of sheer efficiency and purpose to the game. V is all about finding rad combos to do stupid amounts of damage, and the game's designed around the assumption you're going full-force, so you don't want a villain that you feel any amount of sympathy for. Every scene with Exdeath in it is either him doing something that makes you hate him more, or a chance to kick his rear end. He'd be disappointing if he were the villain in most FFs that came after it, but in V he's perfect. If I were to pick my favorite villain for pure story reasons it'd either be Yevonism or Sephiroth, depending on if Yevonism counts.
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May 7, 2019 08:54
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morallyobjected posted:also I would be surprised if most people sat around drawing fires from blue bugs in Disc 1 just to get 100 for each character. FFVIII is only easy to break when you know how, and there's plenty of evidence from people on this very forum that many people didn't understand the system very well. I don't know about most people but the first time I played my hoarder's instincts kicked in immediately, and I stopped and drew 100 of every spell as soon as it appeared.
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May 7, 2019 12:43
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YggiDee posted:For some people, the monsters are the opponents and the challenge is fighting them on even ground. For others, the mechanics are the opponent, and the challenge is making each and every variable yours to manipulate. In the latter case, monsters are just for keeping score. I'm the kind of player who's way more interested in the planning than the execution. It's why I prefer TRPGs to whatever it is we're having right now, and even the mobile games in a way offer more of that than the main series. The two things that interest me the most in games are solving and optimizing complex decision trees, and finding the best combination of variables. A game like FF13 which I know a lot of people love the combat just doesn't work for me.
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May 7, 2019 13:04
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Elentor posted:I'm the kind of player who's way more interested in the planning than the execution. It's why I prefer TRPGs to whatever it is we're having right now, and even the mobile games in a way offer more of that than the main series. The two things that interest me the most in games are solving and optimizing complex decision trees, and finding the best combination of variables. Not that you're not allowed to have your own opinion, but FF13 battles still require planning and problem solving (when it comes to actual difficult or non-trivial fights) when you don't have too high stats. Pretty much every fight everyone in this thread has complained about, in one way or another, is very possible to do with normal stats without pre-empts or upgrades or summons or shrouds or any other extra boons. Usually it requires changing to a more proper team with more specialized paradigms, and yes probably some better execution. It's not that FF13 doesn't have pre-planning or strategy to it. The walls with 13 come from that you need technical knowledge of the nuances of the mechanics. To know that fire doesn't just act like fire from other games, that debuffs work differently here, how to use sentinels properly, the targeting and the other AI behaviors of your team, how to individually optimize the damage from your staggers, and this just scratches the surface. It's all the little details of how the systems functionally work that you often don't need to think about in a normal playthrough and most people don't need to break down into, but it's where 13 gets it's real nuance from. And it's being able to take advantage of these things that lets you beat things at much lower levels or get into the speedrun where most fights need to use most every of these mechanics when they can. There's definitely some execution needed as well to switch strategies on the fly when/if something goes awry, but imo it's overstated compared to how much it helps to know when to switch teams to take advantage of different parts of the mechanics and plan out the strats differently. Not saying it's more than other games or anything, but it's often a neglected point when people talk about 13 I feel.
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