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Bleck posted:in the finale of the first season she orders the execution by fire of a woman who committed the crime of Stopping The King Of The Rape Barbarians, personally assuring her right before that she will revel in the sound of her screams No one's saying that Dany hasnt shown hints of rage and Tyrant like behaviour, and that she wouldnt punish those harshly who have wronged her though. The witch killing Drogo etc was justified, and yes Dany did burn her alive, but that woman killed her baby and essentially her Husband, anyone who kills a royal king and child arent getting away with it lightly and a mother isnt going to react especially kind. Punishing a murderer whatever their reasons, justified or not is a long way from burning innocent women and children alive for a full hour just to make a point, especially since that moment she's been shown to care greatly about the average common person. As someone said before she is horrified when her Dragon kills a single child. Also as someone mentioned before and it needs to be reiterated, Drogo's army isnt different in the fact that they rape and kill women after battles, Cersei, Tywin, Robert, any other ruler in the show and in human history allow this to happen. That's sadly par for the course and Dany is one of the few or only characters in the show who want to prevent this, maybe Jon as he's shown in the last episode doing just that.
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May 13, 2019 18:45
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General Dog posted:Of course it does, it just follows logic that no one else can understand Fair. It doesn't follow external logic that others can easily comprehend. General Dog posted:The problem with Dany's heel turn is how it dips into cartoonish villainy. Even if, broadly, she wants people to fear her, is the best way to accomplish that leveling King's Landing? This isn't some foreign power that she's trying to bully into submission (like the Romans with Carthage, or the Allies with Germany and Japan), it's the prize that she's been focused on this whole time. The city and the keep are her birthright, and yet when she has it she immediately decides to burn it to the ground, while also putting many of her own troops in peril. That's a good point. Her being mad and insane and being willing to sacrifice civilians here and there as part of her war is the one thing, going full blown cartoon evil by burning down a city - something she never wanted to do ever, neither in Mereen nor when she said she didn't want to rule over ashes is something else. Especially seeing that she started burning specifically after they surrendered. I could see her not stopping due to the bells if she started earlier, but this way just because she realized it was "personal" and how it was taken from her is weird. Also her conclusion to burn it down due to this.
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May 13, 2019 18:46
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Glorious
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May 13, 2019 18:46
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Isn't winter supposed to, uh, have been here by now? Last season I seem to remember it snowing in Kings Landing, indicating that the dreaded super-long deadly winter was here and everything was about to be covered under several feet, if not more, of snow. I know King's Landing is fairly far south, but I was under the impression it wasn't going to be spared by this brutal winter.
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May 13, 2019 18:47
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Surely even the most huffiest of dragons couldn’t blow down a solid stone wall like that
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May 13, 2019 18:49
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Elentor posted:---words-- thanks for this effortpost, a lot of cool and fun words
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May 13, 2019 18:50
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CornHolio posted:Isn't winter supposed to, uh, have been here by now? Last season I seem to remember it snowing in Kings Landing, indicating that the dreaded super-long deadly winter was here and everything was about to be covered under several feet, if not more, of snow. Sorry sir i represent the show and we'd ask you kindly not to mention winter again as that plot point ended in episode 3 thank you, move along.
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May 13, 2019 18:50
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Just Chamber posted:Yes... no ones suggesting otherwise. But prior to this episode women and children werent really killed or shown to be anyway due to her orders. Yeah like that time she burned Mari maz dur alive purely for the joy of hearing her scream as she immolated? It's pretty obvious at this point your entire justification for your opinion is that you just didn't like it. That's fine. But you're trying to make your opinion sound as if it is the only correct one, which is not only dumb but you keep making these glaringly wrong statements in order to do it.
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May 13, 2019 18:52
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Guze posted:All this for a fancy wheelchair. Bran is the true villain. Clearly the end of this is Bran wheeling off, slowly at first, then the camera cuts to Jon Snow running through the lobby after him, then the chair is empty, Bran is walking away, smoking a cigarette, getting into a car, and Tyrion receives a fax.
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May 13, 2019 18:53
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Rick posted:Clearly the end of this is Bran wheeling off, slowly at first, then the camera cuts to Jon Snow running through the lobby after him, then the chair is empty, Bran is walking away, smoking a cigarette, getting into a car, and Tyrion receives a fax. Bran looks into the camera, lowers his rad sunglasses, reveals blue eyes and winks. Roll credits. I know this is Bran is Kaiser Soze, but this is clearly better. Guze fucked around with this message at 20:32 on May 13, 2019 |
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May 13, 2019 18:54
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Raccooon posted:Yeah I can see it being in her character to kill surrendered Lannister and Gold company soldiers. Not slaughtering civilians though. That’s the shark jumping moment. You don't rule with fear, as she said she planned to, if you only kill soldiers. Dany going full mad queen was always where her story was going, and sure GRRM probably intended to have a dozen more steps to get from 6/10 crazy to 11/10 crazy, but he hasn't figured it out yet and the show doesn't have the time or the willingness to figure it out for him. The same is true for every plot in the story.
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May 13, 2019 18:54
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Dany's 72-episode quest has failed, she cannot overturn the system, she's another tyrant now. There were lots and lots of hints at this throughout eight seasons that the show broadcast fairly poorly, because she was framed as heroic and the nobility surrounding her loved her for no reason. The Internet having a blowup at the payoff has been something, but now they feel as I have felt about Dany for eight seasons. She's never really made sense as a character, she's never earned anything herself, she's never proven anything about her leadership qualities. Cersei, despite being insanely cruel and vengeful, was actually the more competent ruler. Throughout eight seasons Dany constantly fails to govern competently and has to fall back on weapons of mass destruction get her way. When she said she would break the wheel, she meant it, but *everyone* convinced themselves she meant a benevolent rule. She left Essos in ruins and no one cared. It's just a shame that the show couldn't build this up better and a lot of people felt the turn came in two episodes flat. It didn't; the show's framing was terrible, though.
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May 13, 2019 18:56
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Just Chamber posted:Sorry sir i represent the show and we'd ask you kindly not to mention winter again as that plot point ended in episode 3 thank you, move along. I mean, "Winter is Coming" was the entire tagline of the show
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May 13, 2019 18:56
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Goons Are Great posted:Fair. It doesn't follow external logic that others can easily comprehend. Yeah. I'd have found it believable if she decided at the start that the civilians were enemies and went in from the beginning in full indiscriminate murder-mode, or if after the surrender the populace didn't show her sufficient love and she decided then to go for fear instead, but the trigger for her mad rage being the surrender seemed really forced and out of nowhere.
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May 13, 2019 18:56
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Midgetskydiver posted:Yeah like that time she burned Mari maz dur alive purely for the joy of hearing her scream as she immolated? Uh, she didnt die purely for the joy of it though. She literally murdered Dany's child and husband essentially. And Dany knew the only way to have her dragons be born was through blood magic that required a blood sacrifice. Was she revelling in her death also? Yes. The woman had just killed her unborn baby. I'm not suggesting Dany is a good wholesome person. Like there is a MASSIVE step from that to burning innocent women and children alive for over an hour. One incident with a murderer being punished is not evidence for what Dany did to King's Landing.
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May 13, 2019 18:56
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Midgetskydiver posted:Yeah like that time she burned Mari maz dur alive purely for the joy of hearing her scream as she immolated? Dany executing the murderer of her child is not the best evidence of madness.
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May 13, 2019 18:57
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CornHolio posted:I mean, "Winter is Coming" was the entire tagline of the show Yeah but they killed the Cold Miser so winter's cancelled.
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May 13, 2019 18:58
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The way they've wrapped up the biggest, most expensive TV series on the planet is the equivalent to when a player makes all the wrong choices in an RPG and gets the stupid ending that only exists to force the player reload and try again, but making decisions that actually make sense this time.
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May 13, 2019 18:58
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I love that all of the fawning people who believed in her potential now have their idealism totally crushed, inside and outside of the show.
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May 13, 2019 18:58
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It seems like every defense of the show this season basically amounts to "what, did you expect it NOT to be stupid?", which I guess is fair.
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May 13, 2019 18:59
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CornHolio posted:I mean, "Winter is Coming" was the entire tagline of the show Well enjoy our new tagline: 'Winter has Come', and it was as impotent and pathetic as the writing on the show
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May 13, 2019 18:59
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Just Chamber posted:No one's saying that Dany hasnt shown hints of rage and Tyrant like behaviour, and that she wouldnt punish those harshly who have wronged her though. The witch killing Drogo etc was justified, and yes Dany did burn her alive, but that woman killed her baby and essentially her Husband, anyone who kills a royal king and child arent getting away with it lightly and a mother isnt going to react especially kind. Punishing a murderer whatever their reasons, justified or not is a long way from burning innocent women and children alive for a full hour just to make a point, especially since that moment she's been shown to care greatly about the average common person. It's hard to simultaneously make the argument that Daenerys cares about 'the common person' while at the same time saying "don't dare harm royal blood, plebs!" (This is a real point in her character, the extent to which this 'crusade for freedom and liberation' can coexist coherently with 'being of royal blood and believing that a continent is your birthright because people from your family once conquered it.' The show says: "not really!")
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May 13, 2019 18:59
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As Nero Danced posted:Yeah but they killed the Cold Miser so winter's cancelled. Do the next week previews count as spoilers?
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May 13, 2019 19:00
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LinYutang posted:I love that all of the fawning people who believed in her potential now have their idealism totally crushed, inside and outside of the show. I hated Dany and she was a tyrant who deserved to be usurped. I just hate the way they went about it as it's disrespectful to the character arc, but that sums up every character in season 8 so i didnt expect any better from the writers.
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May 13, 2019 19:00
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Midgetskydiver posted:Yeah like that time she burned Mari maz dur alive purely for the joy of hearing her scream as she immolated? Mirri Maz Duur killed her child and rendered her barren as a surprise cost to a deal where she was supposed to save Dany's husband's life, and on that end she deliberately made Drogo a vegetable. And then she taunted Dany about it, or even if you don't ascribe any malice towards Dany specifically to her (a stretch since, again, she rendered Dany barren on top of killing her kid, who at least had the prophecy thing going on) was really upfront with how she took everything that mattered to Dany from her. Then Mirri, the blood mage who told Dany about how all that stuff has a cost, got used as fuel for the revival of the dragons by the woman who she just screwed over. It obviously wasn't a good or moral act, but it also was clearly more than just sadism. This is specifically looking at the Mirri-Dany interaction, in case that's not clear. Obviously Mirri had good reason to hate Drogo, and killing him was probably for the better of, well, a lot of people, setting aside it catalyzing the return of dragons (not something anyone could reasonably foresee), and her doing what she did also makes sense from a character perspective. She probably even went into it expecting to die, really, given how frank she was with Dany. I'm just saying that Dany, the teenage girl who lost pretty much everything after finally going from more than just a slave, plaything, and/or pawn of other people, being vindictive towards the person most directly responsible in her eyes, and also possibly knowing on some level about the Targ dragon stuff, also makes sense from a character perspective and is more than "lol murder and torture". Roland Jones fucked around with this message at 19:09 on May 13, 2019 |
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May 13, 2019 19:01
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Qwertycoatl posted:Yeah. I'd have found it believable if she decided at the start that the civilians were enemies and went in from the beginning in full indiscriminate murder-mode, or if after the surrender the populace didn't show her sufficient love and she decided then to go for fear instead, but the trigger for her mad rage being the surrender seemed really forced and out of nowhere. Absolutely. Also, the duration. She doesn't go along and goes mad, burns a few houses and streets, killing hundreds, she doesn't even start going towards the red keep and burn that one down as first action, no she starts flying for a bit, then it goes nuts and she burns specifically the city down, not for a few minutes but for like, half an hour. She systematically goes from back to front and burns down street after street, to finish it up with the Red Keep. That wasn't just some rage meltdown killing a few people, it was full blown nuking the city, while being fully aware of what and why she is doing. It is emblematic here that there wasn't another shot of Dany's face while she does it either.
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May 13, 2019 19:01
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Dead Night King, Dead Cersei and Dany is the real villain all in three episodes. Just a bit silly.
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May 13, 2019 19:02
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Pedro De Heredia posted:It's hard to simultaneously make the argument that Daenerys cares about 'the common person' while at the same time arguing 'hey can't touch the royals man.' Well the argument isnt that she isnt a tyrant. She clearly thinks she's superior to anyone who isnt her but she does feel the need to protect those below her under her rule, and she does care about innocents suffering. You can care about the common people and yet still get mad when they murder your unborn baby. I've never laid a hand on another person and care about others but if someone murders my child it's quite possible i'd do terrible things to them.
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May 13, 2019 19:03
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Midgetskydiver posted:Yeah like that time she burned Mari maz dur alive purely for the joy of hearing her scream as she immolated? Yes and no. It's obvious he didn't like it (neither did I, for a litany of reasons) but it's also entirely possible to do the Dany heel turn in a way that wasn't absolutely stupid dogshit. Hell, someone did it earlier ITT even! Saying anyone is mad about the episode just because they don't like what happened is super disingenuous. I didn't like it but it was ALSO executed like poo poo, which is both more important and compounds the dislike I have for the plot beats.
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May 13, 2019 19:04
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Sodomy Hussein posted:When she said she would break the wheel, she meant it, but *everyone* convinced themselves she meant a benevolent rule. She left Essos in ruins and no one cared. This is probably a key point. I imagine one of the ways the books will make this development more 'organic' is that Essos is going to be a flaming pile of poo poo when she leaves. The show never focused on Essos enough and they handwaved it by giving it to Daario (which is a hilarious and completely nonsensical plot development).
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May 13, 2019 19:05
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oversteer posted:Surely even the most huffiest of dragons couldn’t blow down a solid stone wall like that It's not like napalm. It doesn't just set things on fire, it blows them apart dramatically. Unless it's a person, where blowing them to pieces would actually be the merciful thing. No, people get to writhe in agony. Rule of cool I guess.
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May 13, 2019 19:06
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General Dog posted:I think the subtext might actually just be his growing discomfort with her as a ruler and as a person, the relatives thing is just a convenient excuse to get out of the relationship. I just rewatched that scene and you're right. Sam did tell him about his family being executed by Daenerys and Jon is shocked.
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May 13, 2019 19:06
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the horse pulls his mask off, it’s faceless guy
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May 13, 2019 19:07
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Anyone have a gif of Qyburn getting murked? That part was amazing at least.
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May 13, 2019 19:08
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Anybody see the finale of Veep? That was an actual fantastic "mad queen" resolution with amazing writing. I'd highly recommend it.
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May 13, 2019 19:08
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tooterfish posted:Dragon fire has always been weirdly kinetic on the show. Guess it's something something that fire is super hot, like, wall breakingly hot. It's weird, but given that it's a dragon doing it, I mean okay. Makes me wonder how they eat as they probably crush every food instantly by coughing at it, unless they can, like, control the temperature or whatever.
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May 13, 2019 19:09
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Just Chamber posted:You can care about the common people and yet still get mad when they murder your unborn baby. I've never laid a hand on another person and care about others but if someone murders my child it's quite possible i'd do terrible things to them. This is missing the context of what happened. When Daenerys tells that woman "Hey what the hell I saved you from getting raped," the woman responds "I had already been raped three times." The point being "you are being very naive about the control you can have over these armies. This is war and conquest we are talking about. You are a stupid girl." Daenerys should have thought "poo poo... that's true. This poo poo is terrible, goddamn." Daenerys could have stopped this cycle of violence by being the bigger person and not hitting back... but she didn't. She just burned the woman alive instead, did a magical ritual, and then started a massive campaign of conquest.
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May 13, 2019 19:11
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Here's how i think a good way to turn Dany might have gone, borrowing bits from others itt. - Everything happens the same, up until the bells sound. Dany is perched on her dragon watching the surrender of the city, she looks down at the civilians below cowering, she's framed as pretty evil and a tyrant but she isnt full on crazy. - Suddenly a Scorpian arrow strikers Drogon in the wing/ where ever, some Lannister soldiers didnt get the memo and saw an easy target. - Dany is incensed, maybe the people cheer as they see the Dragon hurt, because they've been conditioned to believe she is an invading monster, they hate her. She burns the Scorpian crew, then she burns the surrendered Lannister soldiers below her, as well as surrounding buildings which kill some civilians hiding in them, this sets off wild fire caches Cersei had hidden around the city as a last resort to ensure she had the final laugh. - The city goes up as one by one wildfire explodes across the city, thousands of people die whilst Dany watches. Is she watching in glee as she sees the people who cheered for her demise burn? We arent sure. - Dany heads straight for the red keep, mad with rage, her child is hurt, these traitorous Lannisters attacked her during a surrender, she must destroy the keep and therefore rip out the place of their power root and stem. - We can afterwards argue that her attacking surrendered soldiers and setting off the destruction of the city was an atrocity but it came from a moment of madness, justified in a twisted way, rather than she is a full blown Psycho.
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May 13, 2019 19:13
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PaganGoatPants posted:Anyone have a gif of Qyburn getting murked? That part was amazing at least. Yes, I need this!
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May 13, 2019 19:14
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I was on the side of defending the show even with the Night King death/episode, but last nights episode was so terrible that I have a hard time believing D&D aren't being wierd spiteful trolls with the series now. sUbVeRtInG eXpEcTaTiOnS means "haha every character has their arc completely reversed! NOTHING MATTERED!! HAHA YOU DIDN'T SEE THAT COMING DID YOU. WE ARE SO SMART FOR DOING SOMETHING YOU DIDN'T SEE COMING" I guess? real fuckin angry at TV shows right now
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