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chitoryu12 posted:There’s a difference between storming the palace and exiling the royals and storming the palace and executing all the royals. Namely in the kind of person who picks each option. 
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May 31, 2019 23:08
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HEY GUNS posted:does anyone else think in hindsight that it's real weird that for 19th century historiography the prototypical "modernizing" early modern states were England, the Dutch, Sweden, and france A lot of people*. The fact that those aren't really perfect examples of the typical european state is a core thread of the anti-Sonderweg argument. *edit: "people" here defined as an pretty small (in numbers, not historiographical weight) body of academics that could probably fit in a crowded bus. but hey expertise has to carry some weight, right?
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May 31, 2019 23:09
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Cyrano4747 posted:A lot of people. The fact that those aren't really perfect examples of the typical european state is a core thread of the anti-Sonderweg argument.
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May 31, 2019 23:13
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Cyrano4747 posted:expertise has to carry some weight
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May 31, 2019 23:19
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If anything one of the thorny legacies of decolonisation is a swath of 'strong men' across Africa who are untouchable because of their status as heroic nation builders in the colonial transition period and started to do the natural thing that happens when they realised they were going to be able to rule forever no matter what.
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May 31, 2019 23:22
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GotLag posted:The difference is dead royals find it that much harder to conspire to come back and retake power Isn't this basically the same argument for, say, Stalin having Trotsky killed?
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May 31, 2019 23:25
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HEY GUNS posted:a backwater, a wealthy permawar republic (which in terms of financial infrastructure relied on legacy software from margaret of parma and charles v), another backwater, and the country that eventually turned into...whatever france is In those terms, everywhere but where you are is a backwater until it starts coming where you are and poking with poo poo. Turns out traditional contemporary perspectives are rarely aware of what the future is going to be like. The way that existing power structures can out of the blue be contradicted by changing circumstances is how classical liberalism was born.
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May 31, 2019 23:28
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StandardVC10 posted:Isn't this basically the same argument for, say, Stalin having Trotsky killed? No you see that's different because *vomits 90000 words of impenetrable doctrinaire gibberish*
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May 31, 2019 23:30
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SlothfulCobra posted:In those terms, everywhere but where you are is a backwater until it starts coming where you are and poking with poo poo.
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May 31, 2019 23:30
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HEY GUNS posted:nuclear take, india's a hot germany India is way more divided than Germany ever was, or really any other country in Europe. Imagine if the Huns totally replaced the Romans, and then got milked for resources by China for a hundred years or something. HEY GUNS posted:does anyone else think in hindsight that it's real weird that for traditional historiography the prototypical "modernizing" early modern states were England, the Dutch, Sweden, and france I wasn't aware of Sweden being included. Does the historigraphy go deeper than their military adventures?
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May 31, 2019 23:32
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Alchenar posted:Long term global warming will turn Siberia into some fantastic farmland, but it will also turn large parts of China into a waterless desert. Is this actually true? I've heard otherwise for siberian soil, mainly that it's too acidic for most crops. I do know soil isn't just dirt and that it's this insanely complicated substrate formed by all kinds of both single and multicellular life and I imagine that being essentially frozen for tens of thousands of years probably at the very least slows this process down Pharmaskittle posted:I ate a ton of MREs during Katrina, so I can say that at least 2005-era MREs were pretty drat good. Did you try the chocolate dairy shake? I actually really liked those. (They got rid of them because they were giving people salmonella) HEY GUNS posted:that was such an awful episode but you are talking to someone who literally stopped watching because i got mad at the costumes so The costume design was one of the best parts of the show 
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May 31, 2019 23:38
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Dairy shakes still in. Chocolate, vanilla and I think strawberry flavors
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May 31, 2019 23:45
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GotLag posted:His first challenge was arguably the most interesting - getting his brother out of the way to take the throne ah poo poo, i meant Rama IX. goddamnit Thailand why can't you refer to your Monarchs by their first name Cyrano4747 posted:I don't know if this holds that well. oh yeah, obviously there's big variation in how things played out over the world. In Africa tended to be contemptuous of tradition leaders, while the British more often tried to work with them and incorporate them into the colonial administration. One place that makes for a good contrast to see the effects of colonization on traditional power structures is Yemen. The north was an independent Imamate, while the south was a British colony. Eventually the Immamate was overthrown by Arab Nationalists inspired by Nasser, but it remains influential as a political idea today. It's political system was based in the local aristocratic class and support from the tribes, which remained highly autonomous and powerful up until the Imamate's end. The Houthi family which dominates politics in Yemen is descended from an aristocratic family with connections to the Imamate. The British built up the port of Aden a lot as it was really strategically valuable, resulting in rapid urban development in the south, while buying the loyalty of the local emirs and Sultans. Some stuff I've read (sorry I don't have sources at hand, think it was a Rand country study) indicated British development in Aden resulted in detribalization and proletarianization of the regions inhabitants, in contrast to the North, which saw much less social change in the period. Upon independence the south was taken over by a revolutionary socialist party which immediately moved against the Emirs and eliminated their formal political positions while trying to destroy their political power. This difference, with a less tribal, more left leaning south compared to a more tribal, more traditional north has persisted into the modern day.
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May 31, 2019 23:46
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Hereditary government is the last refuge of the average man in politics. Other political positions are full of ladder climbers and people with a thirst for personal power. Assigning people to political positions by accident of birth results in leadership by average, normal people, rather than selecting out the most wily sociopaths to lead.
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May 31, 2019 23:51
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Tunicate posted:Hereditary government is the last refuge of the average man in politics. Other political positions are full of ladder climbers and people with a thirst for personal power. Assigning people to political positions by accident of birth results in leadership by average, normal people, rather than selecting out the most wily sociopaths to lead. Doesn't this imply that we should really just determine our leaders by pulling names randomly out of a hat?
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May 31, 2019 23:55
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StandardVC10 posted:Doesn't this imply that we should really just determine our leaders by pulling names randomly out of a hat? Sortition has its upsides
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Jun 1, 2019 00:08
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utterly off topic, i think my life would be fulfilled if i could write a miniseries like Chernobyl or The Terror based on my work. Ten episodes, follow the regiment in my dissertation. They go into northern italy, they try to leave, they collapse edit: The first scene could be dresden in the 1960s, when the government finally decides that instead of restoring the church where one of the guys in that regiment was buried, they would dismantle the ruins and carry the stones away--at night, so the protestors couldn't see it happen HEY GUNS fucked around with this message at 00:56 on Jun 1, 2019 |
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Jun 1, 2019 00:18
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StandardVC10 posted:Isn't this basically the same argument for, say, Stalin having Trotsky killed? If you eliminate all historical context? Sure, why not.
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Jun 1, 2019 01:28
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Fuligin posted:If you eliminate all historical context? Sure, why not. I mean, the guy I was responding to didn't provide any, so.
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Jun 1, 2019 02:30
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StandardVC10 posted:Doesn't this imply that we should really just determine our leaders by pulling names randomly out of a hat? That is how some medieval republics worked. Often with the subtext of the ruling families controlling the process of pulling names out of a hat, or being able to control whatever nominal leader chosen out of the hat. I always felt weird about that part of AC2 where the Pazzi are demonstrated to be bad people because they seek to murder their political opponents for control of the city, as opposed to the Medici, who employ the player to murder all of their political opponents (as the player's father evidentially did before). There's even like a speech the Pazzi make about how the Medici are subverting the political system of the city, which is framed by the narrative as a pack of lies, but upon further reflection is probably true. Both sides used assassins, one side just used better assassins.
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Jun 1, 2019 02:43
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I think the subtext is that Lorenzo is good for Florence...he's the "good prince", and that the Pazzi aren't trying to kill him for the good of Florence, but just for the good of their family.
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Jun 1, 2019 02:52
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StandardVC10 posted:I mean, the guy I was responding to didn't provide any, so. Pardon?
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Jun 1, 2019 03:18
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SlothfulCobra posted:That is how some medieval republics worked. Often with the subtext of the ruling families controlling the process of pulling names out of a hat, or being able to control whatever nominal leader chosen out of the hat. AC has a bad habit of trying to pick sides in an era full of terrible people.
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Jun 1, 2019 03:26
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chitoryu12 posted:AC has a bad habit of trying to pick sides in an era full of terrible people.
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Jun 1, 2019 03:29
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AC completely wastes its amazing settings by shoehorning their godawful metaplot into every historical era, it's kind of impressive how commited they are to ignoring actual history
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Jun 1, 2019 03:52
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Fuligin posted:AC completely wastes its amazing settings by shoehorning their godawful metaplot into every historical era, it's kind of impressive how commited they are to ignoring actual history I kind of appreciate that they're not even trying with the framing story anymore. Now it's just "You're a games tester for Ubisoft Montreal, which is evil and makes games about assassins and templars throughout history.".
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Jun 1, 2019 03:54
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Fuligin posted:AC completely wastes its amazing settings by shoehorning their godawful metaplot into every historical era, it's kind of impressive how commited they are to ignoring actual history They cut back on that a lot in Odyssey, which is a good thing. That said, I wish they'd drop it entirely.
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Jun 1, 2019 05:30
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HEY GUNS posted:does anyone else think in hindsight that it's real weird that for traditional historiography the prototypical "modernizing" early modern states were England, the Dutch, Sweden, and france Surely the most modernizing state is the Grand Duchy of Muscovy. Unlimited centralization of power that looked like it wasn't going anywhere, then out of left field, socialism.
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Jun 1, 2019 05:33
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Yes, it's like a lava lamp.
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Nothing incentivizes modernization and centralization as much as an undying thirst for taxes and recruits to throw into everwars.
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Jun 1, 2019 05:41
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PittTheElder posted:Surely the most modernizing state is the Grand Duchy of Muscovy. Unlimited centralization of power that looked like it wasn't going anywhere, then out of left field, socialism.
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Jun 1, 2019 05:41
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The most modern state of that period are the decentralized Ikko-Ikki in Japan. No daimyo, no Shogun! He who advances is sure of salvation but he who retreats will go to hell 
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Jun 1, 2019 05:42
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SlothfulCobra posted:That is how some medieval republics worked. Often with the subtext of the ruling families controlling the process of pulling names out of a hat, or being able to control whatever nominal leader chosen out of the hat. It is also how the office of the Dalai Lama is filled. Well ostensibly the Dalai Lama is always the same being simply manifesting through different reincarnations. In practice this means that he could be born into virtually any family within Tibet. Traditionally he was identified based on how attracted he was as an infant to personal affects from his previous lives and other such signs. Of course today the CCP claims it is the only body capable of finding new incarnations so in protest the present Dalai Lama has said he will not be incarnating in Tibet, and possibly not reincarnating again at all. Also I was thinking about the Epicurius post defending the Hapsburgs and kept loling at the idea that its unfair the blame Ferdinand I for the Empire's decline, as he was too busy dealing with 20+ seizures a day to ever actually govern. Which well lol fair enough I guess, though it's not much of a defense for monarchy as an institution.
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Jun 1, 2019 05:58
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Milo and POTUS posted:The costume design was one of the best parts of the show
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Jun 1, 2019 08:26
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Squalid posted:Also I was thinking about the Epicurius post defending the Hapsburgs and kept loling at the idea that its unfair the blame Ferdinand I for the Empire's decline, as he was too busy dealing with 20+ seizures a day to ever actually govern. Which well lol fair enough I guess, though it's not much of a defense for monarchy as an institution. The only defenses of monarchy we've seen in this thread should not be taken seriously on their face. Hey Guns is basically arguing for libertarianism with a specific aesthetic, and the other guy is just arguing in bad faith. edit: also it is really impossible to divorce political systems from the material conditions that bore them. Nothing like the monarchies of the 17th century can exist right now for the same reason knighthood is completely implausible. Land is not as valuable a commodity as it used to be. Currency is based on fiat. Cottage industries are mostly gone, in part because transportation is much faster and less convoluted than it had been prior. Fuckin nukes exist. Rodrigo Diaz fucked around with this message at 09:15 on Jun 1, 2019 |
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Jun 1, 2019 09:00
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Rodrigo Diaz posted:The only defenses of monarchy we've seen in this thread should not be taken seriously on their face. Hey Guns is basically arguing for libertarianism with a specific aesthetic, and the other guy is just arguing in bad faith.
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Jun 1, 2019 09:12
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In any case, I think it's time for the fine folks of dnd to take their opinions about monarchy back to dnd.
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Jun 1, 2019 09:13
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chitoryu12 posted:I think it might depend on exactly how you transition. If your method of ending the monarchy is storming the palace and decapitating everyone whose clothes look too fancy, your new government is probably going to be full of sociopaths looking for people to oppress and kill because those are the kinds of people who have no qualms about violent revolution. This should be posted every time someone goes harping on about the guillotine and killing every person with more money than them.
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Jun 1, 2019 09:23
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HEY GUNS posted:that was such an awful episode but you are talking to someone who literally stopped watching because i got mad at the costumes so OK, now I'm curious. Game of Thrones is literally fantasy, there's no reason to get mad at them for historical accuracy reasons, so what did you not like about the costumes? Milo and POTUS posted:Is this actually true? I've heard otherwise for siberian soil, mainly that it's too acidic for most crops. I do know soil isn't just dirt and that it's this insanely complicated substrate formed by all kinds of both single and multicellular life and I imagine that being essentially frozen for tens of thousands of years probably at the very least slows this process down It depends on how much "long-term" we're speaking here. If we include the time the new land needs to remain fallow to build up enough top soil, and the time and work Russia has to expend to drain the new swamps (as much of the newly thawed lands will transition from frozen ground to hell swamps filled with blood thirsty mosquitoes, which in turn will be filled with many delightful diseases), yeah Siberian soil will become fantastic farm land. Eventually. Of course, if Russia isn't willing to wait for several thousand years, they can just start draining the new land immediately and then use it as farm land right the gently caress nowish. In which case they'll turn their new farm land into lifeless dust deserts pretty drat fast. But welp, at least this far more plausible scenario will make China less inclined to invade to take the new farm land for themselves.
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Jun 1, 2019 10:04
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An important part of fantasy is contrasting the fantastical with something familiar. Being War-of-Roses-by-way-of-Shakespeare, Game of Thrones uses a lot of medieval-ish aesthetic (and very modern cynicism) to make the setting seem ~gritty and real~, and that's what makes the magic and the dragons pop. The more historical minutia you learn, the less well the "realistic" parts work and that can really hamper engaging with the spectacle. There's no real reason to have the heroes ride horses instead of some other animals, but seeing Jon Snow on a cow or an alpaca would be weird as gently caress.
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Jun 1, 2019 10:16
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Siivola posted:There's no real reason to have the heroes ride horses instead of some other animals, but seeing Jon Snow on a cow or an alpaca would be weird as gently caress. Every fantasy hero should ride an alpaca, they're like horses except super fluffy and unable to carry people. They'd just have to be giant dire alpaca instead of regular alpaca.
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Jun 1, 2019 10:27
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