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Cybernetic Vermin posted:yeah, in principle there can be malware in the uefi firmware or bios, but as the only way to fix that is to toss the laptop and not get a new one (as the new one may have it too) it is not very helpful info. ideally do a full format and reinstall, but whatever reset-to-factory-image is offered up by hp is *probably* sufficient. 
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Jun 5, 2019 20:49
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Subjunctive posted:Serious Hardware / Software Crap > YOSPOS > Security Fuckup Megathread v18.2 - of course it was Lenovo
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Jun 5, 2019 20:52
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is that really better than the current tho
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Jun 5, 2019 20:52
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graph posted:is that really better than the current tho gonna be honest, it isn't.
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Jun 5, 2019 21:07
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graph posted:is that really better than the current tho it's fresher
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Jun 5, 2019 21:21
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Cybernetic Vermin posted:i originally found thompsons 'trusting trust' talk (you know the ones, the impossibility of figuring out a backdoor inserted by a compiler by source inspection), but it comes up pretty often in this kind of conversation: yeah, no poo poo, you can't trust anything. your intel-based laptop comes with three operating systems installed, and you can only have an effect on the one that is least trusted and loads last. i peered down the rabbit hole a bit today and got pointed at https://savannah.nongnu.org/projects/stage0 - a process for bootstrapping an OS install from a few hundred bytes of hand-inspectable assembly code still, that doesn't take care of the hardware side of things - I guess the only way to be 100% sure your computer is doing what you intend it to do is to revert back to mechanical computers, like you can't even wire up a CPU from transistors or ttl components because there's a nonzero chance someone placed tiny malware in the transistor packaging of course, this is purely academic because not even the us military is that paranoid about their hardware
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Jun 5, 2019 21:32
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D. Ebdrup posted:Nah my friend, just solder some wires to your JTAG and flash the firmware that way what if your firmware programmer's firmware has also been compromised 
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Jun 5, 2019 21:52
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if someone's going to that kind of effort to steal my shopping lists and vacation photos, then hell, they've earned them
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Jun 5, 2019 21:53
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that started out as a joke but then I realized a bunch of firmware programming tools would probably use FTDI usb to serial chips and they're notorious for driver and firmware fuckery so i wouldn't be surprised if they accidentally pushed a bunch of malware in a driver update (or did it intentionally when asked kindly by an intelligence agency)
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Jun 5, 2019 21:54
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ymgve posted:i peered down the rabbit hole a bit today and got pointed at https://savannah.nongnu.org/projects/stage0 - a process for bootstrapping an OS install from a few hundred bytes of hand-inspectable assembly code i went reading and boy howdy this project delivers a top-notch free software experience quote:*** FORTH
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Jun 5, 2019 21:59
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quote:Today's release marks the first C compiler hand written in Assembly with structs, unions, inline assembly and the ability to self-host it's C version, which is also self-hosting god don't you have anything more important you could be doing in your life
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Jun 5, 2019 22:22
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graph posted:is that really better than the current tho nah I just wanted to show appreciation
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Jun 5, 2019 22:34
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Soricidus posted:i went reading and boy howdy this project delivers a top-notch free software experience open firmware was done in forth and it was good enough for stebe
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Jun 5, 2019 22:36
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Winkle-Daddy posted:You spelled common knowledge wrong? NSA has been installing malware into HD firmware since at least 2001, and did it for 14 years undetected until that whole Kaspersky thing on equation group malware back in '15. if you're worried the nsa installed malware into hard drive firmware then how would you get around it by buying a new hard drive
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Jun 5, 2019 22:49
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Vomik posted:if you're worried the nsa installed malware into hard drive firmware then how would you get around it by buying a new hard drive you go pick it up in China what are the odds that two state actors have tampered with it?
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Jun 5, 2019 22:52
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Also by "re-install from USB" do you mean re-install the os (which won't help against firmware malware) or re-install the firmware (which a malicious firmware will feel free to ignore)?
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Jun 5, 2019 22:52
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you install a custom firmware which displays a nonce at boot, and then you know if it got written, maybe
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Jun 5, 2019 22:54
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I guess.
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Jun 5, 2019 22:54
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maybe it’s just gonna be a god drat computer that you can use to go online and maybe don’t run your numbers station secret IRC spy ops from it if you’re that guy which you probably aren’t
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Jun 5, 2019 23:00
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Vomik posted:if you're worried the nsa installed malware into hard drive firmware then how would you get around it by buying a new hard drive where do you think the firmware on the HD lives? quote:Let’s start with explaining what “hard drive firmware reprogramming” means. A hard drive consists of two important components – a memory medium (magnetic discs for classic HDDs or flash memory chips for SSD) and a microchip, which actually controls reading and writing to the disk, as well as many service procedures, e.g. error detection and correction. These service procedures are numerous and complex, so a chip executes its own sophisticated program and, technically speaking, this is a small computer by itself. The chip’s program is called a firmware and a hard drive vendor may want to update it, thus correcting discovered errors or improving performance. e: afict this was not done as a supply chain attack Winkle-Daddy fucked around with this message at 23:12 on Jun 5, 2019 |
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Jun 5, 2019 23:09
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Partycat posted:maybe it’s just gonna be a god drat computer that you can use to go online and maybe don’t run your numbers station secret IRC spy ops from it if you’re that guy I think he’s going to use it for work, which likely involves PII and credentials to valuable services. not likely a state target, but consequences to getting owned
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Jun 5, 2019 23:13
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Winkle-Daddy posted:where do you think the firmware on the HD lives?
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Jun 5, 2019 23:14
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mystes posted:A flash chip and/or the platter but how does it make the slightest difference with respect to what we're talking about? because replacing the drive with a totally different one as well as re-installing the OS will remove this kind of malware as described that previously called fud?
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Jun 5, 2019 23:16
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Winkle-Daddy posted:because replacing the drive with a totally different one as well as re-installing the OS will remove this kind of malware as described that previously called fud?
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Jun 5, 2019 23:17
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Subjunctive posted:you install a custom firmware which displays a nonce at boot, and then you know if it got written, maybe how’s a picture of aatrek going to help with that
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Jun 5, 2019 23:21
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mystes posted:Oh I see, I misunderstood what you're saying. Yeah if you think your specific single computer was compromised in transit quote:throw it out and get a new one at a store or whatever if you think that will protect you from the NSA. you're buying a used computer from somewhere you have zero idea what the user's behavior was and if it made them a target of state surveillance for some reason. 4 years ago NSA could re-write firmware for 12 different “categories” (vendors/variations) according to the article. With the increasing complexity on the hw engineering side, this number must have gone up. knowing what we know, and how cheap drives are, you can call it fud if you want, but I'll spend the hundred bux ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ This does leave me with a couple of questions though... HD manufacturers gotta go fast and will that lead to the same bad decisions of chip makers (lol speculative execution)? Is there going to be a temptation by HD manufacturers to basically stick an IoT computer on your HD, I have no idea how close it is to that now? Cocoa Crispies posted:how’s a picture of aatrek going to help with that lmbo
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Jun 5, 2019 23:34
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Cocoa Crispies posted:how’s a picture of aatrek going to help with that how is it not?
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Jun 5, 2019 23:35
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if you encrypt your drive using your cpu you should be safe from HD firmware
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Jun 5, 2019 23:42
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Perplx posted:if you encrypt your drive using your cpu you should be safe from HD firmware Also, isn't nvme just pci-e basically? Could a malicious nvme drive just read arbitrary host memory after booting?
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Jun 6, 2019 00:58
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yeah but usually that firmware’s evil job is to drop a beachhead on the filesystem to kick off a compromise, and it can’t do that if the image is encrypted by the CPU
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Jun 6, 2019 01:04
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Subjunctive posted:I think he’s going to use it for work, which likely involves PII and credentials to valuable services. not likely a state target, but consequences to getting owned maybe don't do that? or at least don't allow PII to touch anything outside of your own infrastructure and use 2fa for services and remote access idk, you already know this stuff e: by don't do that i mean don't buy used equipment for business use if this is a concern. that's probably easier than going all cloak and dagger on the system on the off chance it has some persistent malware or something infernal machines fucked around with this message at 01:45 on Jun 6, 2019 |
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Jun 6, 2019 01:42
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"Buying a new hard drive (which you were going to do anyway)" is "going all cloak and dagger"?
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Jun 6, 2019 01:50
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worrying about it at all is going all cloak and dagger. if doing a wipe and reload is not sufficient for your security purposes, then you already have larger problems because you're trying to manage endpoint security on employee owned devices.
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Jun 6, 2019 01:52
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mystes posted:Is this really true? I think pretty much nobody is using the TPM in a mode where it would actually protect against the hard disk inserting malicious bootloader code. I guess assuming the lack of any vulnerabilities, bitlocker can at least hopefully prevent a malicious OS from reading your data after it boots, which is something. depends. if the drive advertises itself as opel or self-encrypting using the older SATA standard, the os will get the disk encryption key (DEK) from the tpm and then hand it over to the drive's firmware to handle the AES. if your drive doesn't support those standards, or you modified your gpo config to disable the hardware offload, then the DEK should stay in the OS and the AES calcs happen on CPU so that would probably stand up to hostile drive firmware.
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Jun 6, 2019 02:13
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James Mickens' bit on the Mossad/Not Mossad Threat Model is something that deeply applies here
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Jun 6, 2019 02:14
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Lol as if the NSA is interested in y'all goony asses.
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Jun 6, 2019 06:32
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"Oh no, I'd better not buy a second hand computer because there is the infinitesimally small chance there is NSA malware on the hard drive controller" lmbo
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Jun 6, 2019 06:34
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Kazinsal posted:James Mickens' bit on the Mossad/Not Mossad Threat Model is something that deeply applies here yeah, it's a v good threat model for normal people
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Jun 6, 2019 08:39
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yall need to stop buying second hand computers from isis
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Jun 6, 2019 10:21
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Chalks posted:yall need to stop buying second hand computers from isis it was such a good deal but the guy kept joking about how heavy it was
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Jun 6, 2019 13:08
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