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Kchama posted:That's weird as I can't think of anything even like Flashman in Ciaphas Cain. it's just the general format of a war hero posting the irreverent True Secret History of their adventures the characters themselves are not alike
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Jun 10, 2019 14:01
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PupsOfWar posted:it's just the general format of a war hero posting the irreverent True Secret History of their adventures
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Jun 10, 2019 14:07
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Sinatrapod posted:Usually I'm fairly tolerant of protagonists being assholes, but hooooooo boy does Flashman push the boundary beyond the pale, through the doors, down the block and into the sea. He probably makes a good representation of what a particularly vainglorious, dickish, testosterony British soldier of his day pictured as a rad dud, but even making profoundly broad allowances for a different culture of different ages, Flash is an indisputable shitloaf to anyone and everyone nearly all the time. I pushed through the first book vaguely hoping he would get a heroic asskicking or fall down some stairs or something, but no luck. Yeah, I mean, I picked it up expecting he'd be the kind of rear end in a top hat who's kinda fun to read about -- y'know, all the lovely behavior of the Victorian British Soldier done up as a caricature for the reader to laugh at. But it ... didn't come out that way.
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Jun 10, 2019 14:12
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navyjack posted:The Flashman books count? What about the Aubrey/Maturin stuff? Or is that too “literary”? There's already a thread for Aubrey/Maturin. It could use a greater readership. https://forums.somethingawful.com/showthread.php?threadid=3393240
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Jun 10, 2019 14:15
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Kchama posted:That's weird as I can't think of anything even like Flashman in Ciaphas Cain. Black Library thread OP quote:Ciaphas Cain series, by Sandy Mitchell 
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Jun 10, 2019 14:24
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NoNostalgia4Grover posted:Aubrey/Maturin stuff: the subject matter (Napoleonic Wars nautical fiction) keeps me away so I really can't comment. Ie, Bad association with David Weber's magnum opus series. Wait, are you saying you can't read A-M because you associate them too strongly with Weber? I mean, sure, I can see your Napoleonic Wars reason (they do lean pretty heavily into the Age of Sail setting, hope you like sailing jargon) but - please don't let Weber's nonsense keep you from reading some of the best historical fiction ever written.
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Jun 10, 2019 18:07
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hannibal posted:Wait, are you saying you can't read A-M because you associate them too strongly with Weber? I mean, sure, I can see your Napoleonic Wars reason (they do lean pretty heavily into the Age of Sail setting, hope you like sailing jargon) but - please don't let Weber's nonsense keep you from reading some of the best historical fiction ever written. Yeah, unlike the Honorverse books, they're actually good. I mean, I guess. I think loathing Flashman himself just... keeps me from mentally connecting it with Ciaphas Cain. Also, I might do a MilScifi opener but it's super going to be Weber and/or Baen Book-focused since that's all I know. I'd be willing for anyone with experience in other major milscifi series to do their own writeups for the OP. The Milscifi in the Kindle Unlimited thread can stay there, I feel, since if we keep this to like, Baens-Book style stuff, it shouldn't overlap?
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Jun 10, 2019 18:17
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Aubrey-Maturin is closer to Jane Austen than Weber, the character observation and interpersonal subtlety is excellent. Honor Harrington was based on Horatio Hornblower anyway.
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Jun 10, 2019 18:35
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there are at least 3 other sci-fi series i can think of that are based on the Aubrey-Maturin In Space premise, all of em better than weber's output one of those (drake's Lt. Leary) is even published by baen! PupsOfWar fucked around with this message at 19:10 on Jun 10, 2019 |
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Jun 10, 2019 19:06
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Sinatrapod posted:Usually I'm fairly tolerant of protagonists being assholes, but hooooooo boy does Flashman push the boundary beyond the pale, through the doors, down the block and into the sea. He probably makes a good representation of what a particularly vainglorious, dickish, testosterony British soldier of his day pictured as a rad dud, but even making profoundly broad allowances for a different culture of different ages, Flash is an indisputable shitloaf to anyone and everyone nearly all the time. I pushed through the first book vaguely hoping he would get a heroic asskicking or fall down some stairs or something, but no luck. Yeah, that's flashman. He's a record setting rear end in a top hat in every way and gets away with it. Keep in mind when he was written. It's intended as bitter satire of Kipling and other war / colonialist apologetics. Of course these days the joke is you could write a New Flashman that's the same except he never pretends and does all his skullduggery out in the open and everyone just lets him because he's rich and white.
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Jun 10, 2019 19:16
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PupsOfWar posted:there are at least 3 other sci-fi series i can think of that are based on the Aubrey-Maturin In Space premise, all of em better than weber's output I bailed on Leary/RCN a few books in when it became clear that (a) Adele was an unstoppable superweapon and (b) Drake only remembers that about half the time. What are the other two you're thinking of?
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Jun 10, 2019 19:21
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ToxicFrog posted:I bailed on Leary/RCN a few books in when it became clear that (a) Adele was an unstoppable superweapon and (b) Drake only remembers that about half the time. 1 - the Man of War series (which iiirc originated as a self-published internet thing before getting published normally) 2 - colin greenland's old nautically-oriented space operas that I forget the series name of
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Jun 10, 2019 19:35
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PupsOfWar posted:1 - the Man of War series (which iiirc originated as a self-published internet thing before getting published normally) Are you sure you have the right author for #2? AFAIK the only SF Greenland has written was the Plenty trilogy, which wasn't really in that style at all (or at least the first book wasn't, I found it underwhelming and never read the other two).
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Jun 10, 2019 19:43
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ToxicFrog posted:Are you sure you have the right author for #2? AFAIK the only SF Greenland has written was the Plenty trilogy, which wasn't really in that style at all (or at least the first book wasn't, I found it underwhelming and never read the other two). Plenty series goes increasingly in that direction after tabitha goes legit its a stretch maybe, but i'd back those books as A-M influenced before i'd back honorverse as A-M influenced
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Jun 10, 2019 20:17
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PupsOfWar posted:2 - colin greenland's old nautically-oriented space operas that I forget the series name of
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Jun 10, 2019 20:36
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90s Cringe Rock posted:Pretty fun if you're into reading a whole series of books praying this next one is the one where the author brutally murders the protagonist. Given the whole framing device is the guy writing his memoirs in his ripe old age...
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Jun 10, 2019 20:45
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I read the first Flashman and something Cain? I think it was some sort of collection? I really wouldn't compare the two. Flashman is a pile or rotting compost and somehow always lucks out and appears a hero in the end. I certainly enjoyed the novel but I wouldn't want to read a whole series on that permise. Cain makes a pretty weak attempt at pretending at being a coward, but overall it is really a very traight forward WH40K story. Can't say a lot of the particulars stayed in mind.
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Jun 10, 2019 21:13
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PupsOfWar posted:Plenty series goes increasingly in that direction after tabitha goes legit Honorverse is Mary Sue Hornblower. I doubt Weber has read A/M.
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Jun 10, 2019 21:18
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StrixNebulosa posted:The trouble I've got is that the only milsci-fi I've been reading lately is Warhammer stuff and that already has a thread. see like im...im not sure i'd call most 40k novels Mil-SF which sounds weird, i know But it gets into another reason why it'd be tough to have a dedicated mil-SF thread, which is that nobody knows what mil-SF is, really we've had that debate several times in this thread before some subgenres (like lit-RPG) are easily identified due to the specificity of the tropes associated with them. mil-SF is not one of these partially due to the prevalence of military characters and scenarios throughout SFF clearly it can't just be the SFF that's about wars or about soldiers Star Wars is full of wars, and most of the main characters hold military or paramilitary rank, yet people don't call star wars mil-SF (ALTHOUGH i would posit that much of the latter EU was mil-SF) Star Trek is about officers in a space navy (navy careerism tends to be a driving plot force in star trek, even) but people don't call star trek mil-SF astronauts are military officers operating in life-or-death scenarios, but people don't call astronaut stories like Gravity or Interstellar or The Martian mil-SF the Baru books have got detailed wars and battles in em, yet nobody has accused Battuta of writing mil-SF etc were i asked to define what mil-SF is, i'd end up doing some sort of "I knows it when I sees it!" thing, based on the preoccupations of those indisputably mil-SF works ive read by which point you're perilously close to just going "eh it's not mil-SF if it's good" and instituting a genre ghetto within the genre ghetto which would be bad imo PupsOfWar fucked around with this message at 21:26 on Jun 10, 2019 |
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Jun 10, 2019 21:22
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PupsOfWar posted:see like Though it might inspire a lot of passionate defenses of why certain works aren't Mil-SF.
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Jun 10, 2019 21:27
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PupsOfWar posted:see like Generally speaking, the sense seems to be that if the author is writing it with one hand while the other types about gun barrels, it's Mil-SF. Space War Porn. Though even that doesn't quite work. Scalzi has been very explicit about his intent to write mil-sf with Old Man's War because he saw it was selling.
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Jun 10, 2019 21:31
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My criteria is mostly a list of poo poo I don't want to read, but for me it's a fetishistic obsession with weaponry - OR - right-wing politics which are proven to be True and Correct by murdering the poo poo out of a bunch of those people - OR - worship of the US military. It's actually kind of impressive that Scalzi managed to implement the third without the first two
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Jun 10, 2019 22:02
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Hieronymous Alloy posted:Generally speaking, the sense seems to be that if the author is writing it with one hand while the other types about gun barrels, it's Mil-SF. Space War Porn. Yeah I'd agree with this definition. It totally describes Weber to a T. It's also very 'you know it when you see it' but such is life. Also in Star Control news since it did get talked about earlier, it seems like Wardell has been bragging about what he got from the settlement, which seems to be... the settlement P&F offered way back in 2018 that he refused and counteroffered with "We get everything, you shut up and are now my slave." Stardock is publishing the original games now (acknowledging Toys for Bob as the developers now), and has taken down all of his bullshit lies about F&P. He's also announced a new 'Star Control Origins game', which is totally going to be a stand-alone expansion and just happens the original game is taken off Steam/GOG the moment it comes out to delete all the reviews. Kchama fucked around with this message at 22:34 on Jun 10, 2019 |
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Jun 10, 2019 22:20
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Kchama posted:Yeah I'd agree with this definition. It totally describes Weber to a T. It's also very 'you know it when you see it' but such is life. He's the kind of Trumpian guy who claims victory no matter what isn't he?
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Jun 10, 2019 22:24
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pseudanonymous posted:He's the kind of Trumpian guy who claims victory no matter what isn't he? wardell is most famous for doing sexual harassment and sexual coercion, so yeah
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Jun 10, 2019 22:31
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PupsOfWar posted:see like Not all of them are - the Ultramarines book I finished the other day was a straight up adventure story complete with a boss encounter at the end, along with a lot of badly written planetary politics. But then there's Titanicus by Dan Abnett and it's 10000% military sci-fi because most of the book has been soldiers on the battlefield struggling to survive. Lots of hiding in ditches, shooting wildly at enemies (and missing), etc etc. He mixes it up well with well-written planetary politics as the planet under attack asks the nearest Titan unit for help and organizes a defense. Plus, y'know, cool scenes of the Titans/mechas going into war and blowing things up. If that's not mil sci-fi I don't know what is. But this just gets back to my original point: I don't read most mil sci-fi because of the insanely bad politics (shut up, I know 40k has bad politics, it at least doesn't hyper-focus on how goddamn good America is at everything and anyone who is slightly liberal is a demon from hell) - and there's a 40k thread so I'd be in there instead of in the mil sci-fi thread.
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Jun 10, 2019 22:36
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pseudanonymous posted:He's the kind of Trumpian guy who claims victory no matter what isn't he? Yeah. It's obvious he didn't actually win cuz otherwise he'd make them put out a letter of apology that takes all the blame admits to being the baddest person in universe etc etc and/or P&F being forced to basically act like his buddy. The first is what he did to the lady he sexually harrassed and then buried in retaliation lawsuits. The second is what he tried to force on P&F as part of his settlement offer back in March 2018.  This.
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Jun 10, 2019 22:36
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is Ancillary Justice mil sf? thats what im reading rn and liking it well enough so far. the main POV is a neat idea and I am excited to see how she ended up that way.
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Jun 10, 2019 22:53
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ToxicFrog posted:I bailed on Leary/RCN a few books in when it became clear that (a) Adele was an unstoppable superweapon and (b) Drake only remembers that about half the time. There’s Feintuch’s Seafort Saga which has spaceships that take months alone in deep space to get anywhere and you get space cancer if you make a bunch of trips beginning after puberty, so the officers all start as like 11 year olds. Lets them shoehorn all that Royal Navy Rocks and Shoals discipline like caning and poo poo. They’re pretty bad but I read them all anyway.
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Jun 10, 2019 22:55
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my bony fealty posted:is Ancillary Justice mil sf? it is mil sf in the sense that Breq is a troop, but is not mil sf in the sense that it shares very little thematic, stylistic or ideological DNA with other things that are generally recognized as mil sf in short, nobody knows!!! navyjack posted:There’s Feintuch’s Seafort Saga which has spaceships that take months alone in deep space to get anywhere and you get space cancer if you make a bunch of trips beginning after puberty, so the officers all start as like 11 year olds. Lets them shoehorn all that Royal Navy Rocks and Shoals discipline like caning and poo poo. They’re pretty bad but I read them all anyway. seafort is very much a hornblower copy/paste, even moreso than honor harrington since the distinction keeps getting pointed out, i guess we should figure out or codify what makes a nautically-inspired tale an aubrey-maturin knockoff vs. what makes it a hornblower knockoff other than aubrey-maturin being good and hornblower being bad, I mean PupsOfWar fucked around with this message at 23:10 on Jun 10, 2019 |
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Jun 10, 2019 22:57
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On the fantasy side, there is of course Naomi Novik's Temeraire, which is Hornblower with dragons instead of ships.
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Jun 10, 2019 23:01
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PupsOfWar posted:
"Does the captain have an intellectual sidekick?" Also, do the characters enjoy music, or are they tone-deaf
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Jun 10, 2019 23:14
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Selachian posted:On the fantasy side, there is of course Naomi Novik's Temeraire, which is Hornblower with dragons instead of ships. I just couldn't handle those books. It was like "what if Dragons existed, were a big deal, yet literally, nothing is different about society whatsoever." Maybe they got better later or something. I tried to read Jim Butcher and someone told me they get better around book 7.
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Jun 11, 2019 01:01
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pseudanonymous posted:I just couldn't handle those books. It was like "what if Dragons existed, were a big deal, yet literally, nothing is different about society whatsoever." Maybe they got better later or something. I tried to read Jim Butcher and someone told me they get better around book 7. Starting in book 2? 3? they visit China, which is actually ruled by dragons, and the question of draconic rights in Britain starts coming up, but then a horrible plague wipes out all the dragons in Britain thus sidelining the entire question and I don't know what happens after that because I stopped reading.
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Jun 11, 2019 01:29
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ToxicFrog posted:Starting in book 2? 3? they visit China, which is actually ruled by dragons, and the question of draconic rights in Britain starts coming up, but then a horrible plague wipes out all the dragons in Britain thus sidelining the entire question and I don't know what happens after that because I stopped reading. ....wait, what? I fell asleep with the series somewhere in book 2 or 3 a lot of years back and completely missed that dumb-sounding spoiler. Wow.
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Jun 11, 2019 01:31
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ToxicFrog posted:Starting in book 2? 3? they visit China, which is actually ruled by dragons, and the question of draconic rights in Britain starts coming up, but then a horrible plague wipes out all the dragons in Britain thus sidelining the entire question and I don't know what happens after that because I stopped reading. I finished book 1 because I usually finish books I start (yes I read the whole John Galt speech even) but I knew I was done with it.
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Jun 11, 2019 01:53
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my bony fealty posted:is Ancillary Justice mil sf? thats what im reading rn and liking it well enough so far. the main POV is a neat idea and I am excited to see how she ended up that way. Not really. Breq is in the military, but so is Jean-luc Picard, and no one calls Star Trek military sci-fi. "Mil sci-fi" refers more to a collection of tropes themes and tone than just involving characters in a space army.
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Jun 11, 2019 02:39
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A lot of Trekkies get frothing mad when you suggest that Starfleet is a military (despite them using naval ranks and being the ones who defend the Federation).
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Jun 11, 2019 02:58
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Starfleet is absolutely a space military, just pretty well-run (except when plot demands it not be) and that treats its personnel with respect and care, down to the lowest ensign. In other words, complete science fiction. But yeah I wouldn't classify it as Mil-SF for any number of reasons. Same with Ancillary, there is a space military and even a war going on, but those are not the point of the series. I haven't read them but what about Ninefox Gambit and successors?
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Jun 11, 2019 03:11
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FuturePastNow posted:A lot of Trekkies get frothing mad when you suggest that Starfleet is a military (despite them using naval ranks and being the ones who defend the Federation). It's also an organization that exists mostly to explore and do science poo poo. If you combined Nasa and the Navy, then swapped their budgets, you get Star Fleet.
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Jun 11, 2019 03:29
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