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Vonnie posted:I was gonna make an effortpost to try and elaborate on the one good point the scanlators are making, but I don't think it would convince anyone who wasn't already on their side, but basically: I hadn’t considered that. I still don’t agree with the (angry) scanlators, because they are also using other people’s works and have Patreons set up, so it seems a little hypocritical. I don’t think that MangaDex will ever reasonably go legit with multiple publishing companies already having legal means to publish, so I think their concerns about that are largely unfounded. I appreciate your explanation, though.
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Jun 12, 2019 14:02
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It seems like this whole deal started when one of the guys said, off the cuff, "we haven't really thought much about the future, but it would be nice if we could maybe go legit someday." Then a bunch of scanslators, who have already gotten burned by other sites "going legit" using their free labor, got all up in arms. Thing is, MDex doesn't appear to have a plan or anything. It was just the one guy going "here's one possible scenario." These scan groups hit the Full Outrage button far too early, in my opinion. JB is really the only group that does any series I care about anymore, and I used their delayed releases on MDex to remind me that, oh yeah, there's probably a new We Never Learn out on JB's site, oughta go check for that. Now I have to REMEMBER things. Ugh. It'll suck if they pull their existing catalogs and leave huge gaps in the library, though.
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Jun 12, 2019 15:25
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Yeah the shooting themselves in the foot effect of pulling their releases is especially stupid because mangadex added the staggered release schedule that says you can go read it on their site right this instsnt, which likely also directs you to their patreon at some point too, thus maybe providing more income. But instead, I just forget about x series until someone else uploads stuff to mangadex because I'm not interested in keeping track of a gaggle of random scanlator sites that often have subpar at best reader setups
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Jun 12, 2019 15:31
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thetoughestbean posted:I don’t understand being angry that a site wants to go legit eventually. Mangadex could go legit right this very second if they were wanted to; they'd just have to drop all their content. They haven't done that, because the goal isn't to "go legit." They're perfectly fine being a pirate website, but hey, if by chance they become a big enough problem that a publisher decides that buying them out is the easiest solution, then why not take the money? It sucks for fan translators who want the security of one hosting website that will last forever or some poo poo, but even Animesuki only lasted 11 years and  at expecting Mangadex to take some ethical position in favor of piracy.
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Jun 12, 2019 15:47
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Mangadex's "go legit" is explicitly a pipe dream they'd want if they could keep most scanlations not some "let's burn the community to he ground for money". Also JB is spearheading this exit and they aren't even in a grey legal area.
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Jun 12, 2019 16:46
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thetoughestbean posted:I hadn’t considered that. I still don’t agree with the (angry) scanlators, because they are also using other people’s works and have Patreons set up, so it seems a little hypocritical. I don’t think that MangaDex will ever reasonably go legit with multiple publishing companies already having legal means to publish, so I think their concerns about that are largely unfounded. Yeah I don't want anyone to think that I am fully taking the scanlators side. Mangadex eventually going legit is good for them, they can go ahead and do that. My beef with mangadex comes from these images from that thread (I haven't read the full thing, just the initial post and response) https://i.imgur.com/IMccs8w.png This comes off really lovely "Oh they don't want to upload their stuff onto our platform? They're stupid!" and https://i.imgur.com/Do4n4k9.png Lines 3, 4, 9, 13, and 14 don't really paint the best picture either. Entertaining the idea of trying to pressure scanlators into forking over their content is hosed. Mangadex has other problems besides money, they have no experience with what legitimacy would actually entail. Mangadex produces no content, if content is king, then scanlation groups are the important ones, not the hosting platform.  They want to hold a monopoly on scanlation. The fact that they have no way of really doing that doesn't matter, the fact they want that power is bad enough.The "millions of users" are there for the work that the scanlation groups put out, not for mangadex itself. If mangadex died people would almost instantly move on, just like with batoto. Holo is super transparently being an absolute poo poo, trying to turn public opinion against scanlators for the grave sin of... wanting control of "their" content and getting paid for their effort. Like, oh man, the groups have PATREONS? They want money? That's terrible! ...Oh wait Holo wants money too, and... power? because they host the images and have a half decent reader. Like yeah, I get how the idea of the groups getting paid for piracy is kinda hosed, but they're doing actual work. I don't really like how people can consume pirated content, and then wag their fingers disapprovingly at the people actually working to produce it. At the end of the day, it's still labor. And again, just to emphasize, it's not Holo's dream of going legit with mangadex that I'm against. It's that Holo seems to feel entitled to the work of these other people, and should be the only one that sees the benefit of it. Edit: I suppose it would be better to read "Mangadex" as just Holo. Holo comes off as a massive poo poo even ignoring the images posted by the OP. Vonnie fucked around with this message at 18:11 on Jun 12, 2019 |
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Jun 12, 2019 18:07
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it may be labor, but it's not legitimate ethical labor. scanlators shouldn't make any money off their work, ethically. neither should aggregators. collecting enough cash to cover monthly bandwidth costs is the most ethical course of action (aside from not doing it) but still making it reasonably available. patreon is bad because it (and advertising) can go beyond this cap. i think translators should just bear it when it comes to aggregators, which i also don't agree with because they make scanlated manga more widely available - which brings more attention from rights holders. it also obviously adds a host of its own ethical issues. in a perfect world we'd still be getting it from irc with as little attention as possible, as cumbersome as it may be, and scanlation would still be acknowledged as a hobby rather than this parallel business model the pirates are trying to make it (but i'm not denying the sale of bootlegs etc. haven't always been present in the scene) by slyly putting several degrees of separation between "give us money, you get chapter" two wrongs making a right though would be someone uploading the pay-to-read hostage scanlations of guyver and baki (and whatever other series do that)
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Jun 12, 2019 18:48
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yeah I can't really say I am a fan of money entering into the equation with regards to scanlation, those groups setting up patreons doesn't sit very well. IMO the reason to go straight to the scan group's page (or irc or livejournal or whatever) was to reduce the aggregation sites making money off of piracy and keep the profile lower; turning the whole thing into a business crosses the line in a big way to me. Reminds me of the Stop Tazmo poo poo back in the day, I guess now the reaction is to just go set up their own pay site instead of trying to take down the guy charging people.
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Jun 12, 2019 19:03
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Vonnie posted:Yeah I don't want anyone to think that I am fully taking the scanlators side. Mangadex eventually going legit is good for them, they can go ahead and do that. If you dont have the full story you really shouldn't be offering your opinion. Those images are over a year old and presented without any context, plus multiple members of MD's staff have claimed that if MD was doing what you're accusing them of they would have already left the site. The actual likely inciting incident is that some other groups sniped the delayed releases and used a credits page urging people to not donate to scanlations, when the delayers complained to MD they said they don't interfere in scanlation drama. Strangely enough the complainers the started this movement.
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Jun 12, 2019 19:06
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Let's all move on from this back to the threads original purpose because whatever happens happens
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Jun 12, 2019 19:14
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Jun 12, 2019 23:07
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Doesn't Fakku and E-hentai have that market cornered?
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Jun 13, 2019 00:01
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Vonnie posted:I was gonna make an effortpost to try and elaborate on the one good point the scanlators are making, but I don't think it would convince anyone who wasn't already on their side, but basically: Strike it rich with a site that doesn't have ads and probably has a fairly hefty hosting bill? Mirage posted:It seems like this whole deal started when one of the guys said, off the cuff, "we haven't really thought much about the future, but it would be nice if we could maybe go legit someday." Then a bunch of scanslators, who have already gotten burned by other sites "going legit" using their free labor, got all up in arms. Aren't they the guys that had a bitcoin miner running in the background of their site?
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Jun 13, 2019 00:23
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I doubt that having tens of patreon backers or branded mousemat sales are nearly as lucrative as some people seem to be imagining
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Jun 13, 2019 02:07
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Cuntellectual posted:
Wasn't that MangaStream.
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Jun 13, 2019 03:09
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Jun 14, 2019 02:12
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Jose posted:Let's all move on from this back to the threads original purpose because whatever happens happens David D. Davidson posted:Doesn't Fakku and E-hentai have that market cornered? look what you did jose
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Jun 14, 2019 05:21
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Vonnie posted:At the end of the day, the people adding the content that mangadex is flourishing with are doing it for free, and Mangadex want to use their free labor to strike it rich, leaving the amateur translators in the ditch. er, no, they're already doing unpaid labor by making and maintaining the site. the alternatives to going legit are "run out of money for hosting/maintenance and eventually shut down" or "give your computer/phone cancer the way kissmanga does." 
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Jun 14, 2019 19:49
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it is kind of funny that the most pain-free way to read manga online is to use kissmanga with adblock/noscript, though you desperately need those things or you're gonna have to do a full OS reinstall after a few times of visiting it, but... if you have them, basically the only non-ethics-related complaint anyone could possibly have is that they're still hosting the lovely old Berserk scanlations when there's totally scans of the DH translation around
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Jun 14, 2019 19:51
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From a scanslator perspective, Kissmanga doesn't let you take anything down or upload an improved version, so they're basically a way for your old shames to stick around on the internet forever without your consent.
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Jun 15, 2019 03:06
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Clarste posted:From a scanslator perspective, Kissmanga doesn't let you take anything down or upload an improved version, so they're basically a way for your old shames to stick around on the internet forever without your consent.
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Jun 15, 2019 07:07
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BIOTRUTHS
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Jun 15, 2019 08:45
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lol at anyone who still believes in IQ tests
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Jun 15, 2019 09:12
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Reminds me of https://www.cbc.ca/news/business/kissing-cousins-icelandic-app-warns-if-your-date-is-a-relative-1.1390256
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Jun 15, 2019 10:33
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 spoiler revealed: 
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Jun 16, 2019 17:55
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Captain Invictus posted:lol at anyone who still believes in IQ tests IQ tests were meant to find out if a person was mentally disabled, not to find out how smart someone is.
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Jun 17, 2019 02:32
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 Hell,
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Jun 17, 2019 17:39
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That's a feeling alright.
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Jun 17, 2019 19:05
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Did...did the Lusty Argonian Maid get a doujin or something?
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Jun 17, 2019 19:15
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marshmallow creep posted:Did...did the Lusty Argonian Maid get a doujin or something? This is bait, right? You don't REALLY have to ask??
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Jun 17, 2019 19:40
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Jun 18, 2019 04:02
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 "Just fyi, you suck unless you kill everyone that slighted you even a little." Jackard fucked around with this message at 01:10 on Jun 21, 2019 |
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Jun 21, 2019 01:07
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Jackard posted:
I've seen a lot of comments like that and i wonder why don't they just read Xianxia webnovels instead of complaining
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Jun 21, 2019 14:03
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Not actually from a manga reader site, but I feel the content is in the spirit:
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Jun 21, 2019 20:55
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Can Of Worms posted:Not actually from a manga reader site, but I feel the content is in the spirit: Roll Tide
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Jun 22, 2019 05:25
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 The manga in question. A humanoid frog runs a little shop with a highschool girl as an employee.
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Jun 24, 2019 02:10
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Can Of Worms posted:Not actually from a manga reader site, but I feel the content is in the spirit: Do... do I want to know what's going on in Alabama? 
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Jun 24, 2019 07:50
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Jun 25, 2019 09:53
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he also had a power pole to extend
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Jun 25, 2019 10:02
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 Edit: Spicy comment section too. 
Can Of Worms fucked around with this message at 19:46 on Jun 25, 2019 |
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Jun 25, 2019 19:43
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