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I disagree with that. I think it's good to have a game that for once doesn't turn you into a world changing titan - at least when metaphysical feuds between the gods are concerned. Being privileged enough to be the sole witness to the coming of a new era should be enough of a reward
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Jun 15, 2019 22:32
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steinrokkan posted:I disagree with that. I think it's good to have a game that for once doesn't turn you into a world changing titan - at least when metaphysical feuds between the gods are concerned. Being privileged enough to be the sole witness to the coming of a new era should be enough of a reward There's a similar theme in The First Law trilogy that made for a great story, but as a video game PC guided experience it sort of diminishes the point of the main character being the players creation/avatar and having influence on the world through playstyle and choice.
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Jun 15, 2019 22:47
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steinrokkan posted:I disagree with that. I think it's good to have a game that for once doesn't turn you into a world changing titan - at least when metaphysical feuds between the gods are concerned. Being privileged enough to be the sole witness to the coming of a new era should be enough of a reward Except the player is a world changing titan, able to bring entire nations to their knees, and disrupted the best-laid plans of multiple deities in the previous game. And it especially stings when the God trying to bring about the change is a two-hundred foot tall hypocrite, so watching him ring in a new era on behalf of Kith, while there's a Kith right there telling him to go gently caress off, does not feel like a reward in the slightest. I will say that I don't think the plot is bad, necessarily, but it just straight-up is not a fit for the type of game that Pillars is. Everywhere else, the game world responds to the player's presence and actions, resulting in wildly different experiences for different characters. But the Eothas plotline is an exception to that—the only thing that can change is what advice you shout at Eothas for what happens after he gets to do The Big Thing, which in effect is kind of a lame "I'm Helping!  " moment. There are games that have done "The PC is merely an observer to events," and done it well. I just don't think Deadfire did, for everything else it got right.
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Jun 15, 2019 22:50
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That's one advantage of having two storylines- having minimal influence on one is less of a problem because you have a lot of influence on the other
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Jun 15, 2019 22:51
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Acebuckeye13 posted:Except the player is a world changing titan, able to bring entire nations to their knees, and disrupted the best-laid plans of multiple deities in the previous game. And it especially stings when the God trying to bring about the change is a two-hundred foot tall hypocrite, so watching him ring in a new era on behalf of Kith, while there's a Kith right there telling him to go gently caress off, does not feel like a reward in the slightest. I think it just brings the threat that Eothas poses into a sharper relief, that even you, the one who decides the fate of the Leaden Key and of Deadfire, are just a little bit of flotsam before Eothas. And the other gods are equally as powerless. It puts the Eothas plotline on a whole new level of significance. If the player had a chance to defeat Eothas, it would be another case of Arya shanking the Night King. pentyne posted:There's a similar theme in The First Law trilogy that made for a great story, but as a video game PC guided experience it sort of diminishes the point of the main character being the players creation/avatar and having influence on the world through playstyle and choice. You need to recognize that the world of any RPG is the interplay between the author's intention and the player's agency. You shouldn't see being challenged in your exercise of power as a problem, but as an integral narrative device. steinrokkan fucked around with this message at 22:58 on Jun 15, 2019 |
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Jun 15, 2019 22:55
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I've said it numerous times in this thread, but "watcher" shouldn't have been the actual description of what you do throughout the main plotline. "Someone else is the protagonist - you're just there to watch their story" can be done well in many mediums, but not so much video games, where interaction is the entire purpose of the medium.
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Jun 15, 2019 22:58
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Eothas isn't the protagonist, he's an event
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Jun 15, 2019 22:59
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ProfessorCirno posted:I've said it numerous times in this thread, but "watcher" shouldn't have been the actual description of what you do throughout the main plotline. "Someone else is the protagonist - you're just there to watch their story" can be done well in many mediums, but not so much video games, where interaction is the entire purpose of the medium. This is nonsense. Being "a watcher" of much greater events is a staple of classics of art, and video games are no special snowflake case when it comes to the rules of building a narrative.
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Jun 15, 2019 23:13
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2house2fly posted:That's one advantage of having two storylines- having minimal influence on one is less of a problem because you have a lot of influence on the other That is true, but even there I think the game suffered from making Eothas' destruction of the Wheel the A plot and the kith struggle over control the Deadfire the B plot. With the exception of certain backgrounds or companion relationships the Watcher doesn't have any real stake in whoever controls the Deadfire, and in the end you can even choose to gently caress off without any of them and sail into Ondra's Mortar alone. Meanwhile, pursing Eothas has some very personal stakes, but ironically that is the part of the plot the Watcher has the least influence over. 2house2fly posted:Eothas isn't the protagonist, he's an event But that's part of the problem, isn't it? A hurricane is an event, and surviving or interacting with one can be a tremendous story, but an event the player has no way of averting or influencing (With the exception of a handful of dialogue options at the end) is fundamentally less interesting or satisfying to experience in an otherwise choice-driven story.
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Jun 15, 2019 23:13
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Acebuckeye13 posted:But that's part of the problem, isn't it? A hurricane is an event, and surviving or interacting with one can be a tremendous story, but an event the player has no way of averting or influencing (With the exception of a handful of dialogue options at the end) is fundamentally less interesting or satisfying to experience in an otherwise choice-driven story. Not at all. The better story is the one that is better written / crafted, not one which is more interactive. And the Eothas story is plenty interactive throughout its entire span. Except for the ultimate outcome, which doesn't really influence your gameplay experience at all, it only influences your narrative experience.
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Jun 15, 2019 23:15
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I know this is going for the obvious hack example, but in War and Peace the protagonist fails to kill Napoleon and change history in any way, even though he tries. It doesn't diminish from the story at all, if anything it improves it. And since the reader spends as much time chewing through Tolstoy's prose as a player does through Pillars, I guess both have the same right / claim to live vicariously through the story they experience, and to have their preferences reflected in how it unfolds - thus the protagonist should succeed in his wild ambition in order to deliver a satisfying conclusion to the novel. Yet ultimately the story with a tighter control over its own structure ends up much more satisfying and meaningful. "Your choices matter" is just a marketing gimmick for RPGs, not something that intrinsicaly makes them better.
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Jun 15, 2019 23:21
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steinrokkan posted:"Your choices matter" is just a marketing gimmick for RPGs, not something that intrinsicaly makes them better. however if you have chosen to market your rpg on the "choices matter" platform, you should probably make the actual content of your choices matter a little more than that like if you market your rpg as "play this game with your bros have a great time" then your choices mattering shouldn't really be the first thing on your mind. but it will be seen as a failing if you can't play it with your bros and have a great time.
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Jun 15, 2019 23:26
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I guess that's the problem of having two plots in a game, each of which is approached from a completely different narrative angle.
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Jun 15, 2019 23:29
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steinrokkan posted:Not at all. The better story is the one that is better written / crafted, not one which is more interactive. And the Eothas story is plenty interactive. Except for the ultimatime outcome, which doesn't really influence your gameplay experience at all, it only influences your narrative experience. Big ol' counterpoint here that you seem to be missing: Video games, and specifically different genres of video games, are a medium for storytelling, and certain genres are better mediums for certain stories. Halo and DOOM work as first person shooters, and their stories (such as they are) would be much less suited towards an isometric RPG in the Pillars style. I'm not saying that aspect of the plot was bad because it lacked "Interactivity" (Which is not what I was saying, because I'm well aware you can talk to Eothas, the problem is that the dense motherfucker doesn't listen). I'm not even saying it was bad! I'm just saying I didn't feel like it was a great fit this style of game, much like the story of Catch-22 is tremendous, and was famously difficult to adapt into a feature film. I mean look, if it worked for you, great. Personally, I wasn't really a big fan of spending 64 hours trying to get this big dumb idiot to recognize that loving with the lives of Kith, supposedly on behalf of kith, all while ignoring the Kith he's personally loving with is slightly hypocritical, with no true ultimate accomplishment other than physically being there. It's just didn't feel satisfying after spending so much time playing the game and influencing the Deadfire in so many other ways, is all. Acebuckeye13 fucked around with this message at 23:50 on Jun 15, 2019 |
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Jun 15, 2019 23:32
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OK. Hear me out here: Microsoft money looking for a prestige product + Obsidian ownership = Alpha Protocol 2.
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Jun 15, 2019 23:35
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wiegieman posted:OK. Hear me out here: Microsoft money looking for a prestige product + Obsidian ownership = Alpha Protocol 2. only if they let me fully upload my choices from alpha protocol 1. i don't care if i don't get to play as mikey but by god if it gets even one of my choices wrong on the save import i will poo poo
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Jun 15, 2019 23:47
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There's an inherent tension of player agency between the two plotlines that I think is narratively jarring. Going from, "You ultimately decide the political course of the Deadfire," to, "You cannot do anything to stop Eothas at all," is a major shift in the player's ability to affect the the state of the world. I can't help but wonder if a better approach might've been to shift events around so that the trip to Ukaizo takes place before the major faction decision. It would help to set up the faction choice in the context of the game's major thematic thrust (that no one - not even the gods - can solve every problem, and that good intentions don't necessarily lead to good outcomes), and would create a stronger third act climax: you know that the world's now spiraling irreversibly towards a terrible fate if Kith can't work to save it, a realization that could create a real moral quagmire depending on how you view the various factions. As it is, Ukaizo feels vestigial, like you're cleaning up a loose end instead of smoothly flowing from a major crisis to a satisfying climax.
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Jun 15, 2019 23:49
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The White Dragon posted:only if they let me fully upload my choices from alpha protocol 1. i don't care if i don't get to play as mikey but by god if it gets even one of my choices wrong on the save import i will poo poo steven heck or we riot
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Jun 16, 2019 00:23
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Vermain posted:There's an inherent tension of player agency between the two plotlines that I think is narratively jarring. Going from, "You ultimately decide the political course of the Deadfire," to, "You cannot do anything to stop Eothas at all," is a major shift in the player's ability to affect the the state of the world. The decision of which faction takes control over Deadfire is virtually meaningless compared to the stakes and implications of Ukaizo. So I don't think so. Imagine caring about who gets to control a handful of jungle island after learning that death and life have been fundamentally broken and changed.
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Jun 16, 2019 00:35
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steinrokkan posted:Imagine caring about who gets to control a handful of jungle island after learning that death and life have been fundamentally broken and changed. Who controls Ukaizo - and all of its Engwithan technology, including the physical conduit of the Wheel - has enormous implications for the future of Eora. Vermain fucked around with this message at 00:51 on Jun 16, 2019 |
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Jun 16, 2019 00:47
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Vermain posted:Who controls Ukaizo - and all of its Engwithan technology, including the physical conduit of the Wheel - has enormous implications for the future of Eorzea. 
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Jun 16, 2019 00:54
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Eothas' whole point is that it can't fall to one party to control the future of humanity, that either all work together, or perish.
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Jun 16, 2019 00:54
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they both start with "Eor" and i'm tired!!! steinrokkan posted:Eothas' whole point is that it can't fall to one party to control the future of humanity, that either all work together, or perish. Sure. Would you agree that certain factions are better situated to believe that the Wheel is a gigantic machine, that it's truly been broken, and that a massive research and engineering effort in animancy is required to restart it?
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Jun 16, 2019 00:57
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Vermain posted:they both start with "Eor" and i'm tired!!! Yes. And I would believe as much that by design that alone would be absolutely inadequate, and that other nations would play equally important, albeit less immediately obvious roles in repairing he Circle.
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Jun 16, 2019 01:31
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steinrokkan posted:Yes. And I would believe as much that by design that alone would be absolutely inadequate, and that other nations would play equally important, albeit less immediately obvious roles in repairing he Circle. You're thinking too much in terms of the meta-narrative. Again, the point of something like what I propose would be to heighten the impact of the act 3 crisis by forcing the player to choose once they have a greater understanding of the scope of the conflict they're involved in. Unless you've already skipped ahead to look at the ending slides (and ending slides, like any part of a narrative, could easily be changed to be more ambiguous), you can't know for certain that choosing one faction or the other will guarantee the organization and dissemination of the necessary knowledge. What if Rauatai decides that the best way to expand their imperialist ambitions is to privately work on the Wheel and not tell anyone else about it, wanting to keep the potential secrets of apotheosis they discover to themselves? What if the Vailians, especially those under Alvari, focus exclusively on the short-term profit to be reaped from strip mining Ukaizo, ignoring your story of the Wheel being broken as the tale of an eccentric? What if the Huana, only nominally united under the tenuous leadership of a single figurehead, descend into civil war when she dies and turn Ukaizo into a battleground? A player going through the game isn't always going to have those specific concerns, but it's going to be rattling around in the back of their head that whoever controls Ukaizo is going to have free reign to do what they want with it. In a game layered with quest after quest demonstrating the profligate greed and barely-disguised disdain for the poor and the powerless that the factions hold in various measures, you're going to pause and wonder if giving a single faction total control of the engine of reincarnation is the best possible option in the circumstance - but you also have no choice except to gift one of them with the keys to the future or risk an all-out war. It makes the decision far more meaningful - and, thus, far more agonizing - because you know what's at stake without knowing the exact outcome of the choice you make.
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Jun 16, 2019 02:34
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wiegieman posted:steven heck or we riot If there ever will be a sequel to Alpha Protocol, Steven Heck is practically a given considering he's one of the very few characters from the first game who survives no matter what choices you make.
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Jun 16, 2019 14:22
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How do you counter Llengrath's Safeguard? Getting owned by the dragon at the beginning of BoW because I can't to do damage to it for 60 full seconds.
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Jun 16, 2019 17:58
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i used someone with the crossbow modal to strip concentration from the dragon then stun locked it in various ways (just on classic with scaling up)
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Jun 16, 2019 18:06
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Yeah I'm on veteran with upscaling and have honestly not paid attention to concentration at all. Seems like the game just took a huge upward difficulty spike with the endgame content and it's sad knowing I have no future spells to mitigate. I'll try switching Maia to crossbow and see how it goes. Kind of annoyed by the in-game fight UI on these harder fights. No way I can see to tell how much concentration an enemy has. I can see what status effects they have but not what they actually do. I can see the icon for what they're currently casting but can't get a tooltip on what it actually does.
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Jun 16, 2019 18:16
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If an effect can be added to a character multiple times you'll usually see a multiple next to it in the info box. You can see that with concentration and with some weapon modal effects like the battle axe, unless they've changed how that works in a patch recently
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Jun 16, 2019 18:47
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I think some abilities ignore concentration. Mule kick for example will interrupt an enemy if it lands even if they have concentration. I think regular Knockdown won't though?
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Jun 16, 2019 18:51
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Ended up having a grimoire with Arcane Cleanse. Crossbow tip was still useful though as removing concentrations let me interrupt/prone to deal with his big spell that pulls you in then terrifies (nasty combo as your dudes proceed to run away and take disengagement attacks... and sometimes even rinse and repeat). This game is fun when it's hard.
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Jun 16, 2019 18:58
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Ginette Reno posted:I think some abilities ignore concentration. Mule kick for example will interrupt an enemy if it lands even if they have concentration. I think regular Knockdown won't though? i think it only strips 1 count of concentration off so i just would have xoti firing away, wait for the casting Lengraths appear then have someone cc them to break the cast if it's any consolation that dragon is probably one of the hardest non-mega bosses in the game.
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Jun 16, 2019 19:36
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Ranger's Concussive Shot upgrade my go to for countering buffs, only costs 1 resource too. Sicken/Weaken/Enfeeble will lessen or negate enemy healing, not sure if it works on Llengrath's Safeguard though. Scorchy fucked around with this message at 19:52 on Jun 16, 2019 |
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Jun 16, 2019 19:49
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The real secret to countering large amounts of Concentration is to give everyone 1 Arcana and equip them Thrust of Tattered Veil scrolls. They're ridiculously cheap and don't vary in effectiveness based on Arcana.
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Jun 16, 2019 20:48
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Acebuckeye13 posted:Really, that's a problem with the entire "Chase Eothas" section of the plot—if the player wasn't involved, the broad strokes wouldn't change at all. The Watcher is just a convenient witness to the event, which is even stated directly in the text. And for game built around player freedom, choices, and the consequences of the player's actions... that's a really big misstep, no matter how great the rest of the game is. The player does have freedom and choice. They can even attack Eothas, it just doesn't work out for them. Eothas is kind of the point that he is trying to make - the Gods make choices and disrupt the lives of mortals and there's nothing the mortals can do about it, so he's smashing the wheel to give mortals some bargaining power. He knows the system he is in doesn't work and the only way he sees to fix it is to smash it to pieces and hope people can put something better together. The Watcher doesn't get a say in this because Eothas knows the system is too disruptive to continue as is, and the other Gods will NEVER let him help mortals any other way. It's kind of the same way in Deadfire - there is no good faction any way you argue it. The Huana are built on a caste system that has created a new impoverished class that industrialization and centralization means they can't support at any reasonable level of life while ALSO supporting the caste system. The Ruatai are conquerors who offer a more equal but equally hosed up system, and they'll implement it without any say on the part of the natives. The VTC will provide the income the Huana need to support their underclass but they will also disrupt the Huana way of life and operate independently of the Huana government, and also are going to leave the Huana high and dry once the Adra is gone. The Pirates, old or new blood, may offer freedom, but it's the kind of uncontrolled anarchy that means constant bloodshed and violence, and if left in charge the VTC or the Ruatai will eventually just amass an actual army and drive them out, leaving you with RDC or VTC taking over. Yeah, you get to choose which faction, and you may help an island or two along the way, but you can't fix what's fundamentally broken about your faction in the process. That's kind of the point - that you choices may have a great impact, that your decisions may make or break some things on a small scale, but at the end of the day you are just one small group of people and you can only do so much. The wheel has to be broken so that people have to come together and fix the problem together or everyone gets hosed together. The watcher may get to guide Eothas a little so that people are best prepared for the coming storm, but they can't stop it, not should they. It is a game about choice, but that choice is one of lesser evils and hope that better changes are coming. Why should the A story be any different?
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Jun 17, 2019 05:33
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there's a basic structural dissonance. at the surface narrative level the message is "man should be free." but at a number of deeper narrative levels nobody is free. and the one person who might be the heroic exception to this--the watcher--is actually the biggest slave of all. this is probably an unsatisfying message. but it isn't necessarily a 'flawed' one. there might well be a similar dissonance between what we tell ourselves about the history of our society vs. what the history of our society actually is. or perhaps, from a different angle: nobody is ever actually completely free or completely a slave; so the theme of freedom vs. slavery is over-determined and falls into constant contradiction. Zane fucked around with this message at 06:22 on Jun 17, 2019 |
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Jun 17, 2019 05:50
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To me the Eothas part of the plot had the dissonance where once you learn his true plan it's actually something I want to happen, yet the game still goes with the narrative hook of "you gotta get to ukaizo and try stop him!". So I fail to do something I didn't even really want to do in the first place.  Still think all of this could have been fixed if the narrative had been re-framed to have Eothas recruit the watcher to help him, instead of Berath to stop him.
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Jun 17, 2019 05:59
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TheAnomaly posted:The Watcher doesn't get a say in this because Eothas knows the system is too disruptive to continue as is, and the other Gods will NEVER let him help mortals any other way.
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Jun 17, 2019 06:07
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all this god talk and no mention of the one true god NEMNOK NEMNOK NEMNOK
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Jun 17, 2019 06:08
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