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e.pilot posted:How about we fix the flight medical system and make seeing someone for mental health not so stigmatized? That’d be more realistic. Yep. Tell a pilot with severe depression "by the way, if you report this to your flight surgeon you're gonna almost certainly be instantly grounded, and then we'll require you to spend several months going to tons of doctors to determine whether you've nuked your career permanently or just temporarily -- oh, and even if you do find some medication that fixes you, if it's not one of these three approved drugs you're still gonna be grounded as long as you keep taking them, which may be the rest of your life" and see how many pilots are interested in seeking treatment for mental health issues
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Jun 19, 2019 19:05
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BIG HEADLINE posted:I know the reason against something like this would be $$$ and "what if it goes wrong," but it'd be nice given the recent spate of "depressurization as a tool for crazy/depressed pilots" if they'd put in a logic gate that only allows the plane to be depressurized after being pressurized once weight is reapplied to the landing gear after landing. The specifics vary somewhat between aircraft, but there's generally some way for pilots to take manual control of a cabin outflow valve, and there are emergency checklists (usually related to smoke/fumes in the cabin or a failed pressurization controller) that require the crew to either modulate the valve or completely dump the cabin pressure, so removing that option poses a lot of problems. Also, most modern airplanes are designed to have equalized the cabin pressure shortly before landing, since dumping the cabin pressure on the ground creates an uncomfortable pressure "bump" for the passengers.
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Jun 19, 2019 19:21
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e.pilot posted:Then you just manually over pressurize the plane to cause a structural failure. How about we fix the flight medical system and make seeing someone for mental health not so stigmatized? That’d be more realistic. That sounds really hard. Have we considered a knee-jerk or bandaid solution that will make me look good until after the next election?
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Jun 19, 2019 19:46
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KYOON GRIFFEY JR posted:at 40,000 feet you have 20% of the oxygen available at sea level. keep in mind that above 26,000 feet is an area called the "death zone" in mountaineering where your body can no longer acclimatize and without supplemental oxygen you will gradually die. At 26,000 ft or 40,000 ft the atmosphere is still 21% oxygen, except the total atmospheric pressure is much lower. Above 26,000 ft it is called the Death Zone because the atmospheric pressure is so low, even if you were breathing 100% oxygen, the oxygen partial pressure (Atmospheric pressure * Percent Oxygen) is too low and you will be still be hypoxic.
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Jun 19, 2019 19:52
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e.pilot posted:Um no, time of useful consciousness goes a lot higher than 12k, like a lot higher. 12km, 40k feet, the altitude in the article
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Jun 19, 2019 20:02
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CarForumPoster posted:I'm really curious what the Malaysian and Indonesian military radars saw because L-O-L at having a giant rear end plane with no IFF and no radio contact straight up overfly/nearly into the air space of your county without doing poo poo about it. Honestly, an airplane with no transponder could be trucking through the majority of the high airspace in the US and ATC would probably never notice it unless another airplane questioned them about it.
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Jun 19, 2019 20:11
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INTJ Mastermind posted:At 26,000 ft or 40,000 ft the atmosphere is still 21% oxygen, except the total atmospheric pressure is much lower. Above 26,000 ft it is called the Death Zone because the atmospheric pressure is so low, even if you were breathing 100% oxygen, the oxygen partial pressure (Atmospheric pressure * Percent Oxygen) is too low and you will be still be hypoxic. That's not exactly accurate, 26kft is where you can't adapt without oxygen and will die no matter how well you're conditioned. If you had a constant supply of O2, i.e. more than a mountain climber can carry, you could survive more or less indefinitely at that pressure altitude (barring longer term physiological effects of the pressure difference).
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Jun 19, 2019 20:24
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BIG HEADLINE posted:I know the reason against something like this would be $$$ and "what if it goes wrong," but it'd be nice given the recent spate of "depressurization as a tool for crazy/depressed pilots" if they'd put in a logic gate that only allows the plane to be depressurized after being pressurized once weight is reapplied to the landing gear after landing. I think airplane manufacturers might be wary of any system that the pilot can't directly control/override in light of recent events. In any case there's no technological solution, besides fully autonomous aircraft. There are a lot of fields out there where you avoid seeing mental health professionals at all costs, and there are definitely cases where SSRIs cause mental "breaks" and paradoxical effects that can aggravate the condition, which is the worry and the reason for some of the backwards regulations on flying while taking them. It's sad, and it requires a full culture shift, where pilots are encouraged to spend (paid) time on the beach to get their heads/meds right. The Western world is kinda slowly shifting to realizing that mental health is not something you can just take a concrete pill for and "harden-up" and manly-man your way through, but we're still not there, and I imagine it'll take even longer for less progressive cultures to realise this.
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Jun 19, 2019 20:32
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Wingnut Ninja posted:That's not exactly accurate, 26kft is where you can't adapt without oxygen and will die no matter how well you're conditioned. If you had a constant supply of O2, i.e. more than a mountain climber can carry, you could survive more or less indefinitely at that pressure altitude (barring longer term physiological effects of the pressure difference). Well it seems you are correct. A simple face mask is only good up to 25,000 ft, but there are more sophisticated oxygen delivery systems with better seals and pressurization that are good to above 40,000 ft. Either way, if the cabin depressurizes at cruising altitude, the dinky yellow masks aren’t going to keep the passengers alive too long, even if the oxygen didn’t run out first.
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Jun 19, 2019 20:40
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evil_bunnY posted:12km, 40k feet, the altitude in the article Nobody outside of China uses meters for altitude, that’s dumb.
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Jun 19, 2019 21:04
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somewhere right around 40k is the point where even breathing 100% oxygen at ambient pressure still isn't enough and you'll pass out and die without a pressurized supply. at ~62k all your non-blood body fluids start boiling unless you're in a pressure suit
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Jun 19, 2019 21:14
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INTJ Mastermind posted:Either way, if the cabin depressurizes at cruising altitude, the dinky yellow masks aren’t going to keep the passengers alive too long, even if the oxygen didn’t run out first. The dinky yellow masks are designed only to keep the passengers alive (and not necessarily conscious) for the couple of minutes it takes to do an emergency descent to <12,000 feet. shame on an IGA posted:at ~62k all your non-blood body fluids start boiling unless you're in a pressure suit not really. if you mean "sweat and tears" then sure i guess they'll evaporate more quickly in the low pressure but a bigger problem is that at 62,000 feet it's 56 degrees below zero so you'll freeze. your cerebrospinal fluid, stomach contents, urine, and other internal bodily fluids don't boil in low pressure environments. that's just the movies Sagebrush fucked around with this message at 21:19 on Jun 19, 2019 |
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Jun 19, 2019 21:16
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NightGyr posted:The Atlantic just published an enormous article breaking down what we know for sure about MH370 and the conclusion that no one is willing to admit: it was a pilot suicide Written by William Langewiesche no less. Son of Wolfgang.
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Jun 19, 2019 21:21
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e.pilot posted:Nobody outside of China uses meters for altitude, that’s dumb.
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Jun 19, 2019 21:34
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WHIO posted:MIAMI VALLEY — A bright, white dot spotted in the sky by numerous News Center 7 viewers has raised questions about what the object might be. https://www.whio.com/news/local/bright-white-dot-sky-raises-questions/DlyLXb9uzsVojcRMcdaZmO/ Although despite the claims, there does appear to have been a Loon balloon in roughly that area at roughly that time of day: https://www.flightradar24.com/data/aircraft/n260th#20efb331
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Jun 19, 2019 22:22
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Elviscat posted:I think airplane manufacturers might be wary of any system that the pilot can't directly control/override in light of recent events. In any case there's no technological solution, besides fully autonomous aircraft. On this note: Pilot bros, you can totally go talk to a therapist and it’s not reportable to an AME. The only time it becomes reportable is if you’re diagnosed with something. Lay out the ground rules with your therapist before hand that you can’t be prescribed or diagnosed with anything because your livelihood depends on it. Therapists are great people and will typically help to whatever extent they can. Get some healthy coping mechanisms and tools before your mental health irreparably crumbles.
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Jun 19, 2019 23:30
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Wingnut Ninja posted:That's not exactly accurate, 26kft is where you can't adapt without oxygen and will die no matter how well you're conditioned. If you had a constant supply of O2, i.e. more than a mountain climber can carry, you could survive more or less indefinitely at that pressure altitude (barring longer term physiological effects of the pressure difference). Well now I'm picturing a really long hose and a fairly miserable experiment
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Jun 19, 2019 23:35
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Just to be clear the Atlantic article is saying that the captain must’ve ordered the FO out of the cockpit leaving the captain alone so he could start ripping apart the fuse panel or whatever, right? That means that it couldn’t happen on an airline that requires 2 people in the cockpit at all times?
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Jun 19, 2019 23:37
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TTerrible posted:This is such an unbelievably frustrating read. What the gently caress, Malaysia. They're racking up a dismal score as leader in pilot suicides. And you can tell by the tone of the article that they weren't held in very high regard as investigators before MH370 either. e: e.pilot posted:Welcome to overflying islands in the pacific where ATC is made up and airspace doesn’t matter. Not a drat THING 
ewe2 fucked around with this message at 23:53 on Jun 19, 2019 |
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Jun 19, 2019 23:42
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The Silk air and Egypt air crashes also had authorities stonewalling didn’t they? The egyptair crash was in American waters though but Egypt started stonewalling the NTSB.
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Jun 19, 2019 23:46
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hobbesmaster posted:The Silk air and Egypt air crashes also had authorities stonewalling didn’t they? The egyptair crash was in American waters though but Egypt started stonewalling the NTSB. Yeah there were massive cultural inertias to overcome in those instances too, but going on some of the Malaysian crashes in recent years, you could see clearly a pattern of "investigating to avoid blame" rather than "investigating to find the truth".
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Jun 19, 2019 23:55
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holocaust bloopers posted:When I did the chamber in aircrew school, I was functional for about 60 seconds at FL 320. You go stupid fast and without drama. Smarter Every Day video on the subject: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kUfF2MTnqAw
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Jun 20, 2019 00:10
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hobbesmaster posted:Just to be clear the Atlantic article is saying that the captain must’ve ordered the FO out of the cockpit leaving the captain alone so he could start ripping apart the fuse panel or whatever, right? That means that it couldn’t happen on an airline that requires 2 people in the cockpit at all times? Would the FO know how to get into avionics and cut power to the cockpit door lock?
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Jun 20, 2019 00:17
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Jealous Cow posted:Would the FO know how to get into avionics and cut power to the cockpit door lock? There’s no way to access the cockpit from the cabin, even the little keypad has a 15 second delay before it unlocks that can be denied.
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Jun 20, 2019 00:33
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Jealous Cow posted:Would the FO know how to get into avionics and cut power to the cockpit door lock? He had 30s of useful consciousness according to that chart and less when the climb started.
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Jun 20, 2019 00:33
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e.pilot posted:There’s no way to access the cockpit from the cabin, even the little keypad has a 15 second delay before it unlocks that can be denied. Since Germanwings, it seems like there's a rule that there are always two people in the cockpit - I always see a flight attendant go in when a pilot goes to the bathroom. And they barricade the aisle with the drinks cart while the door is open. I assume that's a policy that would prevent this sort of thing.
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Jun 20, 2019 00:42
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NightGyr posted:Since Germanwings, it seems like there's a rule that there are always two people in the cockpit - I always see a flight attendant go in when a pilot goes to the bathroom. And they barricade the aisle with the drinks cart while the door is open. I assume that's a policy that would prevent this sort of thing. Yep, US carriers were doing it long before the Germanwings incident.
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Jun 20, 2019 00:44
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NightGyr posted:Since Germanwings, it seems like there's a rule that there are always two people in the cockpit - I always see a flight attendant go in when a pilot goes to the bathroom. And they barricade the aisle with the drinks cart while the door is open. I assume that's a policy that would prevent this sort of thing. US carriers started that after 9/11.
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Jun 20, 2019 00:58
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hobbesmaster posted:US carriers started that after 9/11. Apparently the Germans got rid of it again : https://www.thelocal.de/20170428/german-airlines-to-overturn-two-person-cockpit-rule-two-years-after-germanwings-crash And so did Canada: https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/ottawa/transport-canada-two-flight-crew-cockpit-1.4164592
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Jun 20, 2019 01:00
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fknlo posted:Honestly, an airplane with no transponder could be trucking through the majority of the high airspace in the US and ATC would probably never notice it unless another airplane questioned them about it. No transponder, sure. Transmitters break. But if the plane suddenly goes dark on secondary radar then makes a sweeping 180 degree turn over Omaha. ATC is going to expect them to maintain radio contact or send someone up to "help" them.
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Jun 20, 2019 01:28
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NightGyr posted:And so did Canada: Well in Canada's defense we almost caused a rerun of the Tenerife accident at San Fransisco, and their were like two guys in the cockpit then 
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Jun 20, 2019 01:33
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CarForumPoster posted:No transponder, sure. Transmitters break. You'd be amazed at the kind of poo poo that gets missed. Like someone accidentally removing all the info for a flight they're not actually working and then having that mode C intruder fly for hundreds of miles across multiple sectors before anyone notices it. e: We also don't generally show primary returns if you're working airspace that's entirely in the flight levels. If they turned off their transponder it would go into a coast status that the controller would probably notice somewhat quickly, but by the time anyone thought to flip on primaries you wouldn't be able to keep up without pulling the tapes. fknlo fucked around with this message at 01:37 on Jun 20, 2019 |
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Jun 20, 2019 01:33
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It's surprisingly easy to lose track of an airplane on radar if you're busy.
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Jun 20, 2019 04:31
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Godholio posted:It's surprisingly easy to lose track of an airplane on radar if you're busy. Sure, if you have a problem with the idea of object permanence.
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Jun 20, 2019 04:39
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Carth Dookie posted:Sure, if you have a problem with the idea of object permanence. If you turned 99% of controllers away from their scope at any given moment and asked them to name 1 aircraft that's on it they would struggle to do it. One tag disappearing while you're not looking at is insanely easy to miss. At the right time it could easily take several minutes before you noticed the track was coasting. I can't even tell you how many times someone has said something on my frequency and I have no idea who it is or where they are and I pull them up on our secondary screen and it's some rear end in a top hat in the middle of my sector. This is a common occurrence for pretty much everyone.
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Jun 20, 2019 05:08
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My dad was an air traffic controller for 30+ years and I nearly joined myself, so I'm well aware of all that, I was just razzing.
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Jun 20, 2019 05:48
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That MH370-article was amazing. But there's no other evidence for depressurization other than circumstance, right? Hard to argue for any other scenario of course. Also, I wonder if the F/O just had his phone left on by routine or if he tried calling. I.e. was it "a single brief connection" at that point, but there were similar connections earlier in the flight and all the time when he was flying normally, or if he switched it on there and then as a desperate attempt to make contact.
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Jun 20, 2019 09:30
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It doesn’t help that our automation provides next to no automatic queuing for unexpected conditions, and is generally a human factors nightmare.
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Jun 20, 2019 12:44
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Is this the thread for general plane chat? I finally get to fly on the upper deck of a 747 and I am excited 
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Jun 20, 2019 16:38
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Ola posted:That MH370-article was amazing. But there's no other evidence for depressurization other than circumstance, right? Hard to argue for any other scenario of course. Reading between the lines he left his cell radio on, it was a weak attempt to join the tower that then failed. It probably didn’t get a bearer for data or would’ve been able to make calls at that altitude. Because of the disappearance they scoured the logs and found that connection attempt. Attempts to communicate with the ground would’ve been done via sat phone.
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Jun 20, 2019 16:45
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