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JaySB
Nov 16, 2006



Travic posted:

Thanks for the words of encouragement. I'll keep at it, but I'm still pretty confused. My teachers have been saying similar things, "Come to class and play and you'll get there eventually." I just don't know how to fix something when I don't know what I'm doing wrong. :(. I may just not have the instincts to figure it out.

You should probably ask for feedback from your training partners when you fail to execute a technique properly.

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CommonShore
Jun 6, 2014

A true renaissance man


Also consider that kata won't translate directly to randori. Kata is for demonstration. It's basically for understanding technical details of the throw and the opportunities that produce it.

I suggest that you choose the two or three throws that come natural to you and focus on landing those in randori, and thinking about the gripping and kuzushi opportunities that produce them. Spend a while just working on getting those throws on your opponents.

I've fallen out of like with uchikomi, because it trains people to stop on their entries. Drills like grip and hip, star throw, or throw for throw are more productive ways to improve your applied throwing ability.

kimbo305
Jun 9, 2007

actually, yeah, I am a little mad
How common is it at judo gyms that white belts can't spar or drill with each other? That's the case here, and we're encouraged to go with at least brown belts when available.
I rolled with one green belt once and I can tell he was promoted too soon.

Travic
May 27, 2007

Getting nowhere fast

Fell Fire posted:

How experienced in teaching are the black belts? It sounds like they know that grappling takes a while to learn, but don't have the knowledge base of where to correct you.

If you can, I would find someone of similar size and work through things slowly, asking them to resist enough that you can't immediately throw them. Move around, go in for a fit, figure out what you are doing wrong. Get a black belt to watch you if possible. If you can't throw them, try adjusting until you can. Get lower, move a foot, adjust your hips, etc. You brought up o-goshi, so try that. Practice where you are putting your feet and how far outside you are stepping. It may be that a couple of inches is making the difference. Remember that against bigger ukes, a lot of throws will be easier if you get them off balance first, so try a foot sweep and then going into the throw you actually expect to work.

Talk with your ukes as well, explain what techniques you want to work on and how you want them to resist. Some, especially lower belts, might be resisting too much for their skill level and not able to help you much, if you slow everything down usually they will be able to relax a bit. Technique should be developed before speed.

They've been teaching for a long time. I think they just haven't had someone as clueless as me. I'll see if I can find someone to train with outside of class. There isn't time during class unfortunately.

JaySB posted:

You should probably ask for feedback from your training partners when you fail to execute a technique properly.

In Kata most of the higher belts are very helpful. They give me pointers and I correct things. But then in Randori it all falls apart and they say just keep coming to class and trying and I'll figure it out. "I tried Hiza Guruma several times on you and couldn't make it work. What was I doing wrong?" "Just keep trying and you'll get it."

CommonShore posted:

Also consider that kata won't translate directly to randori. Kata is for demonstration. It's basically for understanding technical details of the throw and the opportunities that produce it.

I suggest that you choose the two or three throws that come natural to you and focus on landing those in randori, and thinking about the gripping and kuzushi opportunities that produce them. Spend a while just working on getting those throws on your opponents.

I've fallen out of like with uchikomi, because it trains people to stop on their entries. Drills like grip and hip, star throw, or throw for throw are more productive ways to improve your applied throwing ability.

That may be part of my problem. I'm finding that very little of what I learn in Kata can actually be used.

Travic fucked around with this message at 21:10 on Jun 11, 2019

kimbo305
Jun 9, 2007

actually, yeah, I am a little mad

CommonShore posted:

I suggest that you choose the two or three throws that come natural to you and focus on landing those in randori

This is a bit chicken and egg, cuz you have to have decent exposure time to quite a few throws before you can gauge which ones are more natural to you.
The 3 or 4 throws I've been shown all feel equally alien to me.

Travic posted:

But then in Randori... they say just keep coming to class and trying and I'll figure it out. "I tried Hiza Guruma several times on you and couldn't make it work. What was I doing wrong?" "Just keep trying and you'll get it."

That's unproductive on their part. If they can't remember how it went in sparring, they should at least offer to have you try one more throw on them and analyze where you're failing.

Siivola
Dec 23, 2012

Travic posted:

"I tried Hiza Guruma several times on you and couldn't make it work. What was I doing wrong?" "Just keep trying and you'll get it."
They dunked on you with experience.

Edit: I mean, beginners in general telegraph harder than Samuel Morse. Only way around that is to put in the reps and try to relax. (And get thrown a lot. Very important.)

Siivola fucked around with this message at 21:19 on Jun 11, 2019

CommonShore
Jun 6, 2014

A true renaissance man


kimbo305 posted:

This is a bit chicken and egg, cuz you have to have decent exposure time to quite a few throws before you can gauge which ones are more natural to you.
The 3 or 4 throws I've been shown all feel equally alien to me.


That's unproductive on their part. If they can't remember how it went in sparring, they should at least offer to have you try one more throw on them and analyze where you're failing.

Yeah it is chicken-and-egg, but you have to start somewhere. By "comes natural" I also don't mean "which work well" - I mean the ones that come to mind the most often on the fly.

If you're still not sure where to start, then start with osoto, ouchi, kosoto, kouchi, and seoi nage. They're good setups for each other, they combo well, and if you're working with those you have a throw for every direction.

Travic
May 27, 2007

Getting nowhere fast

Siivola posted:

They dunked on you with experience.

Edit: I mean, beginners in general telegraph harder than Samuel Morse. Only way around that is to put in the reps and try to relax. (And get thrown a lot. Very important.)

I am super good at getting thrown. And I'm a very big guy so it's quite a landing. But yeah that's pretty much what I need. "I could tell what you were going to do________so I did _________. Either relax before the throw or counter with something like _________."

ImplicitAssembler
Jan 24, 2013

I don't do judo, but after 2 months, the answer is 'practice more'.

Mechafunkzilla
Sep 11, 2006

If you want a vision of the future...

kimbo305 posted:

How common is it at judo gyms that white belts can't spar or drill with each other? That's the case here, and we're encouraged to go with at least brown belts when available.
I rolled with one green belt once and I can tell he was promoted too soon.

I can't speak to what is more or less common in judo, but as long as you're sparring and drilling with someone, it's fine.

02-6611-0142-1
Sep 30, 2004

What you need is to make friends at the gym. I’ve only been doing judo for a couple of months (prior grappling experience though) and I’ve tactically befriended all the left-handed upper belts and try to always do drills with one of them.

kimbo305
Jun 9, 2007

actually, yeah, I am a little mad
I'm doing the classes with my teammate from my old gym that closed. We trained a lot and have pretty good communication. But because we're white belts, we can't even do the basic drills with each other. I totally get why standup randori should be done with at least one person who can throw and take throws, but it feels restrictive for drilling.

Mechafunkzilla
Sep 11, 2006

If you want a vision of the future...

kimbo305 posted:

I'm doing the classes with my teammate from my old gym that closed. We trained a lot and have pretty good communication. But because we're white belts, we can't even do the basic drills with each other. I totally get why standup randori should be done with at least one person who can throw and take throws, but it feels restrictive for drilling.

Sounds like a good thing to talk to the coach about! Especially if you and your buddy are prior training partners from another gym, maybe they would make an exception.

kimbo305
Jun 9, 2007

actually, yeah, I am a little mad
The overall Japanese tradition vibe is pretty low. We do the ending ceremony in Japanese, but no one's bothered to tell us what any of it means. And we barely got told to bow before stepping onto or off the mat.
I figured the white belt policy comes partly from tradition.

We asked one of the coaches, and they were against it, but the Thursday coach is switching, so maybe could ask again.

ihop
Jul 23, 2001
King of the Mexicans
Something to keep in mind too Travic: When I spar with lower rank players, I can feel when their entries are sloppy or lack control. Usually because they're moving too fast or trying to use too much muscle. I can tell that if I allow them to throw me at that moment, it's going to be "uncomfortable" at least. So I defend their entries. The harder and faster they come in, the less control they usually have, and out of self-preservation I'll defend or counter the throw. Especially on big throws. If they work a slower smoother entry, even if I see it coming, I can tell they're in control and I'll give them the throw.

If you can, try to find one of the upper belts who seems to have a good attitude. Ask him to spar with you, and ask him if he'll let you be selfish and work on your throws, lightly defending or counterattacking, but not directly attacking you. Spar with him at about half normal speed and effort. If he doesn't let you throw him 2 or 3 times during the round, find someone who will. As you get more comfortable, the pace will increase naturally, and sooner or later you'll be going full speed. This is something I'm happy to do with new players, or players of any skill really, and I feel it really helps bridge the gap between drilling and full resistance sparring. It lets the beginners start to feel the mechanics of a throw as it's supposed to work, and the sparring becomes more relaxed and is generally more fun and less painful I think.

ihop
Jul 23, 2001
King of the Mexicans
Combo post!

kimbo305 posted:

The overall Japanese tradition vibe is pretty low. We do the ending ceremony in Japanese, but no one's bothered to tell us what any of it means.

In order to make more complete judoka, here's what the words of the closing ceremony at my first, very traditional club meant:

"Keotsuke" (stand at attention)
"seiza" (make the kneeling position, there's actually a specific way to arrive at this position. It's not super important, but the origin of the motions is kind of neat.)
"mokuso" (close your eyes, meditate on the practice, what you've learned and worked on.)
"yame" (unclose your eyes, forget all that poo poo)

Followed by three bows:

"otagai-ni rei" (thanks and hespect to everyone)
"sensei-ni rei" (thanks teachers)
"shomen-ni rei" (face the front, or wherever Jigoro Kano's picture is, and give thanks to the founder(s) of judo)

Beginning of class had the same stuff but reverse the order of the three bows.

Most clubs just do Keotsuke-rei, stand at attention and bow.

ImplicitAssembler
Jan 24, 2013

ihop posted:

. If they work a slower smoother entry, even if I see it coming, I can tell they're in control and I'll give them the throw.

This is similar to what we do in kendo. With kids/juniors, if the attack is done roughly (for their ability) at the right timing and the right distance, I'll let it go through. If they prove to be completely incapable of that, I'll revert to basic hitting practice. Granted, theres no real consequence of getting hit, so it's easier to do.
Having said that, it's occasionally helpful to stop and explain what I want them to do, but the fundamental idea is that we (seniors/teachers) play at 'one level' above the student, making it hard, but not impossible.

Travic
May 27, 2007

Getting nowhere fast

ihop posted:

Something to keep in mind too Travic: When I spar with lower rank players, I can feel when their entries are sloppy or lack control. Usually because they're moving too fast or trying to use too much muscle. I can tell that if I allow them to throw me at that moment, it's going to be "uncomfortable" at least. So I defend their entries. The harder and faster they come in, the less control they usually have, and out of self-preservation I'll defend or counter the throw. Especially on big throws. If they work a slower smoother entry, even if I see it coming, I can tell they're in control and I'll give them the throw.

If you can, try to find one of the upper belts who seems to have a good attitude. Ask him to spar with you, and ask him if he'll let you be selfish and work on your throws, lightly defending or counterattacking, but not directly attacking you. Spar with him at about half normal speed and effort. If he doesn't let you throw him 2 or 3 times during the round, find someone who will. As you get more comfortable, the pace will increase naturally, and sooner or later you'll be going full speed. This is something I'm happy to do with new players, or players of any skill really, and I feel it really helps bridge the gap between drilling and full resistance sparring. It lets the beginners start to feel the mechanics of a throw as it's supposed to work, and the sparring becomes more relaxed and is generally more fun and less painful I think.

ImplicitAssembler posted:

This is similar to what we do in kendo. With kids/juniors, if the attack is done roughly (for their ability) at the right timing and the right distance, I'll let it go through. If they prove to be completely incapable of that, I'll revert to basic hitting practice. Granted, theres no real consequence of getting hit, so it's easier to do.
Having said that, it's occasionally helpful to stop and explain what I want them to do, but the fundamental idea is that we (seniors/teachers) play at 'one level' above the student, making it hard, but not impossible.

02-6611-0142-1 posted:

What you need is to make friends at the gym. I’ve only been doing judo for a couple of months (prior grappling experience though) and I’ve tactically befriended all the left-handed upper belts and try to always do drills with one of them.

Ok I'll see who's up for it. Maybe see who hangs around after class for sparring. It's almost all really chill, nice people. So far I really like Tai Otoshi, Osoto Gari, Hiza Guruma, and Seoi Nage. I'll work on those and the other beginner throws so I have more options. Thanks.

kimbo305
Jun 9, 2007

actually, yeah, I am a little mad
One thing that's become very apparent coming from a not-gi striking background is that I never think about reaching out with my hands and off-balancing with the opponent's sleeves and lapels. Almost every entry, I get reminded to do more kuzushi with my arms before entering. To pull the opponent in instead of just rushing up to them. With the exception of catching kicks, you can't really grab anything at arm's length with boxing gloves on, so you have to step at least into elbow range to secure an underhook or arm drag, which is the mentality I've been carrying into judo -- "if I get close, surely I'll be able to make something happen"
Something to work on deprogramming.

On the other hand, the sleeves are loving awesome for securing a grip.

ihop
Jul 23, 2001
King of the Mexicans
If you want to clinch up I think you should go for it.

Judo players don't like it when people clinch up. They act kinda like it's crude to forgo the gi and directly grab hold of someone. But really it's just because it's scary. NOBODY wants to be there. Big throws happen when you lift people. If they've done judo long enough they remember the time the D-1 wrestler showed up and wrecked everybody's poo poo.

But you're still using the same judo principles to throw from the clinch. Unless you're literally just picking them up you've still got to move them off balance. You still have to move into position and apply whatever finishing motion.

Being comfortable in the clinch is a huge physical and psychological advantage, gi or no-gi. It's an easy standing position to force. If it's gi you can grab a belt grip and now you have direct control on your opponents center of gravity. It becomes much easier to defend shots if you're too old/slow/lazy to sprawl. Your opponent probably doesn't want to be there and will be focusing on escaping the clinch, not so much on attacking or defending. If your opponent doesn't do stand-up they're going to be terrified and/or exhausted and will likely try to pull the shittiest guard and only the rules of the sport and your own kindness will keep them from becoming a crater.

slidebite
Nov 6, 2005

Good egg
:colbert:

e: nevermind

slidebite fucked around with this message at 20:22 on Jun 16, 2019

The MUMPSorceress
Jan 6, 2012


^SHTPSTS

Gary’s Answer
Does this judo school seem OK?
https://www.nakanojudo.net

I'm finally in a place in my life where I can pick up a martial art again and I've decided to give judo a go because my hands can't really take punching anymore. I used to do muay Thai and bjj in my early 20s but now I'm old and mostly just want to do this for fitness and fun.

Dave Grool
Oct 21, 2008



Grimey Drawer

jit bull transpile posted:

Does this judo school seem OK?
https://www.nakanojudo.net

I'm finally in a place in my life where I can pick up a martial art again and I've decided to give judo a go because my hands can't really take punching anymore. I used to do muay Thai and bjj in my early 20s but now I'm old and mostly just want to do this for fitness and fun.

That place looks awesome, also the website is kinda fucky so that means it's extra legit

e: wait no that was chrome being fucky

kimbo305
Jun 9, 2007

actually, yeah, I am a little mad

jit bull transpile posted:

I'm finally in a place in my life where I can pick up a martial art again and I've decided to give judo a go because my hands can't really take punching anymore.

So far, my hands have been getting a lot of wear in judo, just very different to striking.
I have fairly delicate fingers and wrists, so most of the pain from punching was just dull knuckle ache. And a rare rolled wrist.

Judo, I'm getting a ton of abrasion at the joints that need to be bandaided. I just know that I'm gonna get my finger trapped during a throw somehow and it's gonna bend funny.

The MUMPSorceress
Jan 6, 2012


^SHTPSTS

Gary’s Answer

kimbo305 posted:

So far, my hands have been getting a lot of wear in judo, just very different to striking.
I have fairly delicate fingers and wrists, so most of the pain from punching was just dull knuckle ache. And a rare rolled wrist.

Judo, I'm getting a ton of abrasion at the joints that need to be bandaided. I just know that I'm gonna get my finger trapped during a throw somehow and it's gonna bend funny.

I've broken my hands a bunch of times and even hitting a heavy bag sucks now because impacts like that just shoot nerve fire through my wrists and forearms. I'm less worried about mat burn type of abuse.

JaySB
Nov 16, 2006



My hands hurt worse from grip fighting than anything else.

ihop
Jul 23, 2001
King of the Mexicans

jit bull transpile posted:

Does this judo school seem OK?
https://www.nakanojudo.net

I'm finally in a place in my life where I can pick up a martial art again and I've decided to give judo a go because my hands can't really take punching anymore. I used to do muay Thai and bjj in my early 20s but now I'm old and mostly just want to do this for fitness and fun.

It looks like the head instructor comes from San Jose State, which I believe is Mike Swain's club, and one of the top clubs in the US.

Mechafunkzilla
Sep 11, 2006

If you want a vision of the future...

jit bull transpile posted:

Does this judo school seem OK?
https://www.nakanojudo.net

I'm finally in a place in my life where I can pick up a martial art again and I've decided to give judo a go because my hands can't really take punching anymore. I used to do muay Thai and bjj in my early 20s but now I'm old and mostly just want to do this for fitness and fun.

Looks like a great club.

slidebite
Nov 6, 2005

Good egg
:colbert:

For you guys that travel, have you ever tried just calling up/dropping by a club of your affiliated sport to see if you could drop in for a class? If so, what was the response/reception?

I know we've hosted a couple "strangers" from time to time and everyone has been super friendly to them as far as I know, but not sure if that's a common occurrence or not?

Also, got rid of my universal gym because I never use it and bought a heavy bag and stand. The stand has studs for plates. Any idea what I'll need for weight for plates? Or, do you see a downside to just using a few sandbags or something draped over the legs?

JaySB
Nov 16, 2006



slidebite posted:

For you guys that travel, have you ever tried just calling up/dropping by a club of your affiliated sport to see if you could drop in for a class? If so, what was the response/reception?

I always call/email and see what the visitor policy is. Always gotten a positive response and very infrequently have I had to pay for a class as a visitor. When all else fails, see if your head instructor knows someone at the gym.

Xguard86
Nov 22, 2004

"You don't understand his pain. Everywhere he goes he sees women working, wearing pants, speaking in gatherings, voting. Surely they will burn in the white hot flames of Hell"
I would call/email ahead and it was always super chill.

Even gyms with contracts would work with me since I didn't know how long I'd be there and had short notice for when I would be moving on.

It's funny because it's almost a turn-key social network in almost any city. Travel can get lonely so that's a benefit you don't expect.

JaySB
Nov 16, 2006



Xguard86 posted:

It's funny because it's almost a turn-key social network in almost any city. Travel can get lonely so that's a benefit you don't expect.

This 100%, met some great people and done some cool stuff with random people I've met training in other cities and countries

slidebite
Nov 6, 2005

Good egg
:colbert:

Thanks, I'll call them up next time I'm in town.

spacetoaster
Feb 10, 2014

slidebite posted:

For you guys that travel, have you ever tried just calling up/dropping by a club of your affiliated sport to see if you could drop in for a class? If so, what was the response/reception?

I know we've hosted a couple "strangers" from time to time and everyone has been super friendly to them as far as I know, but not sure if that's a common occurrence or not?


Happens all the time in BJJ.

I've dropped in to other schools, and many people have dropped into the gym I attend too.

It's usually a no charge for a one time thing.

Personally I like having a person drop in, or dropping in, because you get an opportunity to spar with different folks.

Xand_Man
Mar 2, 2004

If what you say is true
Wutang might be dangerous


slidebite posted:

For you guys that travel, have you ever tried just calling up/dropping by a club of your affiliated sport to see if you could drop in for a class? If so, what was the response/reception?

I know we've hosted a couple "strangers" from time to time and everyone has been super friendly to them as far as I know, but not sure if that's a common occurrence or not?

Also, got rid of my universal gym because I never use it and bought a heavy bag and stand. The stand has studs for plates. Any idea what I'll need for weight for plates? Or, do you see a downside to just using a few sandbags or something draped over the legs?


I've done sandbags then switched to weights. Even fully weighted down the stand will move a little bit and that will start to rip up the sandbags; cleaning a sand blowout off mats is not fun. If budget is an issue try wrap the sandbags in an outer layer of canvas or something, but otherwise just go for weights.

Personally I'd go for the weight of the bag on each peg but google says 75% works ok.

old.flv
Jan 28, 2017

A good lad who likes his Anna's.
You can get pea gravel for cheap at home depot and put it in industrial strength garbage bags

cubivore
Nov 30, 2006

fuck you, got mine
Hi, goons.

I'm interested in HEMA and I will definitely be doing something related to it, but the one place I can get to is pretty far away and so, at best, I'll have to make do with being a weekend warrior.

But! There's a lot of other martial arts classes I can take during the weekday, real close to me. So, I want to pick something else up, something that will benefit me most when it comes to doing HEMA. I'm mainly considering judo, followed by muay thai, and then, maybe, BJJ. What would be best?

I'm a small female in reasonable shape, but with no experience when it comes to fighting or martial arts whatsoever. I'm not looking into going into these things with the aim of self-defense, I just want to have fun and be a big old nerd.

ImplicitAssembler
Jan 24, 2013

Fencing, kendo, boxing. muy thai, kickboxing. Don't think you'll gain much from grappling arts such as BJJ & judo.

generatrix
Aug 8, 2008

Nothing hurts like a scrape
There’s a ton of grappling involved with fully armoured fighting. Judo is probably your best bet for learning stuff that would apply to HEMA.

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Defenestrategy
Oct 24, 2010

ImplicitAssembler posted:

Fencing, kendo, boxing. muy thai, kickboxing. Don't think you'll gain much from grappling arts such as BJJ & judo.

Kendo and Fencing arent gonna help in fully armored. Fencing is about being faster than your opponent with a light flexible pokey stick and Kendo is about having more kiai than your opponent aiming to strike a decisive blow. Some forms of armored fighting is closer to mma where you're allowed to hit your opponent with a stick. Muay Thai and Judo IMO is the way to go if you want applicable cross training.

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