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Grand Fromage posted:This is Londo specifically because of the Shadow influence, not all Cenauri. I could have sworn that it was said that the Vorlons never visited Centauri Prime, and that the Centauri just evolved telepaths naturally.
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Jun 25, 2019 11:20
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Milkfred E. Moore posted:He's dying and unable to consent to the mind scan, but one wonders how they could even tell whether Kosh was unconscious or not. Two ways, one more reliable than the other: 1) "Kosh, who poisoned you?" "Kosh?" or 2) Lyta scanning him. Lemniscate Blue posted:And the in-universe explanation is "It's Vorlons, I ain't gotta explain poo poo." You're probably right. But I prefer to think of the in-universe explanation as Dr. Kyle did see the "face" of a glowing cephalopod and that's what moved him so.
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Jun 25, 2019 12:21
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Armack posted:Two ways, one more reliable than the other: 1) "Kosh, who poisoned you?" "Kosh?" or 2) Lyta scanning him. Neither of those prove unconsciousness. The first, no one has any idea how Vorlons work and the one bit of information they have (that they require special atmosphere) is false. For the second, Kosh's telepathic abilities vastly outstrip Lyta's own (she's a P5 at series start) and human-alien scans are mentioned as being weird and disorienting. The answer is just that The Gathering is janky and makes very little sense in light of what we learn later.
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Jun 25, 2019 13:28
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Milkfred E. Moore posted:The answer is just that The Gathering is janky and makes very little sense in light of what we learn later. Yeah, I still don't get how you slap a poison patch onto the hand of a non-corporeal entity. Or how you poison a non-corporeal entity. Or what the physical equivalent of going in for a handshake with a non-corporeal entity is. I mean, you can maybe sorta talk around some of this to get an explanation, but the one quoted above is the correct one IMO. It doesn't need an explanation, I can live with some inconsistency.
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Jun 25, 2019 14:35
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Or, given that the Vorlons are big-time telepaths, how the assasin's disguise fooled him.
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Jun 25, 2019 14:49
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It's because Marcus' theory about Kosh being like Merlin and aging in reverse, therefore knowing the future, is all true. It's also the only way to make the actions of the Vorlon government make sense, too. What, they know Sinclair's secret and they're still threatening to destroy the station and drag him back to the Vorlon homeworld? All pantomime. edit: I recall reading something a few years back from the initial outline where Kosh's wife is mentioned as having a carapace covered claw for a hand. Milkfred E. Moore fucked around with this message at 15:12 on Jun 25, 2019 |
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Jun 25, 2019 15:01
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Dirty posted:Yeah, I still don't get how you slap a poison patch onto the hand of a non-corporeal entity. I always thought that the assassin poisoned the encounter suit. It's organic tech, after all.
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Jun 25, 2019 15:09
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Doctor Zero posted:I could have sworn that it was said that the Vorlons never visited Centauri Prime, and that the Centauri just evolved telepaths naturally. What I posted is what I remember JMS saying from the Lurker's Guide but I could be misremembering.
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Jun 25, 2019 18:13
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Doctor Zero posted:I could have sworn that it was said that the Vorlons never visited Centauri Prime, and that the Centauri just evolved telepaths naturally. I know it fits with the schtick of the elder races loving around with the younger ones on a long term, but I don't like the idea that the Centauri were destined to fall in with the Shadows just because they were the ones the Vorlons left alone. That was the whole point of Mr.Mordin shopping around the station for a
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Jun 26, 2019 04:12
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Jedit posted:We don't hear any Centauri mention anything. And Londo can't even remember exactly how many gods the Centauri have. I don't think there was a consensus on Zoog.
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Jun 26, 2019 05:53
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M_Sinistrari posted:I don't think there was a consensus on Zoog. Seems pretty Vorlon to me.
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Jun 26, 2019 06:12
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M_Sinistrari posted:I don't think there was a consensus on Zoog. But that's the point. The Centauri don't have any devout faithful, I don't think we ever see a Centauri priest, and their gods are pretty much a joke and excuses for a party. So it's very unlikely that the Vorlons visited Centauri Prime, and they have no idea what to project to a Centauri.
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Jun 26, 2019 09:31
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Which of the tie-in novels are worth reading?
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Jun 26, 2019 10:58
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I found the Centauri trilogy worthwhile. The Psi Corp trilogy is a bit of a slog since there are very few familiar characters in it. I stalled on it towards the end of the first book.
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Jun 26, 2019 11:01
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hand-fed baby bird posted:I found the Centauri trilogy worthwhile. The Psi Corp trilogy is a bit of a slog since there are very few familiar characters in it. I stalled on it towards the end of the first book. And thus missed the two books that are 100% about Bester and Garibaldi. The Centauri, Technomage and Psi Corps trilogies are all fine to essential. Of the Boxtree series, The Shadow Within and To Dream In The City of Sorrows are basically essential.
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Jun 26, 2019 11:10
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Adaptabullshit posted:Which of the tie-in novels are worth reading? The Shadow Within, The Psi Corps trilogy, are the ones I rate as being worth reading. The first Psi Corps novel is really good but hard to read first, partially because it's set in basically another era and that it covers several decades of time and has an insanely quick pace. I found it much more enjoyable when I came back to it after reading the second one. I didn't particularly like the Centauri Prime or Technomage books but other people might. The other standalone novels are unimaginably dire and can't be recommended to be read by anyone. I've read To Dream In... but don't really rate it highly at all.
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Jun 26, 2019 11:28
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Mr Freeze as a technomage just for that one episode was such a waste. He had the greatest voice.
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Jun 26, 2019 23:47
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I always knew him as Kang from Star Trek. But, agreed.
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Jun 27, 2019 00:56
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I thought that voice sounded familiar.
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Jun 27, 2019 01:00
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Jedit posted:And thus missed the two books that are 100% about Bester and Garibaldi. I’ll get back into it based on what you’ve said. I thought the senator who founded the Corps was a great character, I just got a bit bored by the guy who took over.
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Jun 27, 2019 13:20
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I just started my first rewatch in years, two episodes down and 108 to go. Would anyone be interested in joining in, or hearing my thoughts as I go?
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Jul 3, 2019 00:18
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I'll probably be starting my own first-in-several-years (but like fourth or fifth in total?) viewing pretty soon. I'd be interested in hearing your thoughts, sure.
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Jul 3, 2019 00:22
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Jedit posted:I just started my first rewatch in years, two episodes down and 108 to go. Would anyone be interested in joining in, or hearing my thoughts as I go? What do you think this is, some kind of thread to talk about Babylon 5?
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Jul 3, 2019 00:50
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I might join you when you get to Season 5 if I'm in the mood. Just finished a rewatch until the end of Season 4 a few weeks ago.
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Jul 3, 2019 01:08
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Jedit posted:I just started my first rewatch in years, two episodes down and 108 to go. Would anyone be interested in joining in, or hearing my thoughts as I go? 
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Jul 3, 2019 03:03
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I've been watching with a friend and she loves it, we're into early s3, definitely post your reactions!
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Jul 3, 2019 07:26
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Sure, let's hear 'em. I'm in the middle of season 4 of my rewatch, so the early seasons are still fresh in my mind.
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Jul 3, 2019 16:01
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fVDwPoisC6M
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Jul 4, 2019 08:49
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I feel teased.
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Jul 4, 2019 16:45
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OK, let's begin. I'm not going to be looking at the episodes strictly from a temporal point of view; there will be meta-commentary that in many cases will be spoilery if you haven't seen the whole series. I'll flag the seasons where appropriate, so newbies or people who want to do a "like it was the first time" rewatch can jump in when the time is right. I'm also going to be discussing the assembly of the show more than the plot. Unfortunately I wasn't able to start my rewatch with The Gathering, because I don't have the movies on DVD. I know people rag on the pilot, but I've always thought that with only a couple of exceptions it stands up well. Unlike most people in the UK I actually saw it before the series - it aired out of order here, but I learned of B5 from an Amiga magazine that did an article on the CGI and so I rented the pilot when I saw it. One thing I had wanted to do was compare Tamlyn Tomita's performance with that of Claudia Christian. (S1) Laurel Takashima was originally meant to play a much more important role in S1 than Susan Ivanova did and it's hard to say how that would have turned out. With all the character's major arc functions swapped onto someone else, S1 Ivanova feels a bit like a fifth wheel. So, straight on to Midnight on the Firing Line. The episode is pretty much tailor made to function as an alternate pilot, introducing two of the three replacement characters. And although as I said I don't mind The Gathering, I also feel like MotFL works better as a start point. A lot of shows decide that they need to hit the ground running with a major threat. Despite JMS's protests that you can't compare the two shows, TNG even opened in the same way as B5's original pilot - it introduced all the characters, then said "Right, here's a mysterious but super-powerful race to be menacing at you". To have an opening episode where the stakes are just run of the mill stuff, and to give the show time to breathe before firing up the big guns, is a pleasant change of pace. Another interesting observation is that (S2) Ivanova and Talia were set up from the start to interact. It meant nothing at the time, of course, but in hindsight you can see the gears of plot shifting to accommodate the cast changes. I'm not sure if JMS ever went into explicit detail on what the original plot would have looked like, but my guess is that the relationship would have played almost the same way. Laurel Takashima would be innately distrustful of Lyta and be insistent that Lyta never try to read her mind. Lyta would acquiesce - it's a violation of Corps rules anyway - and the relationship would gradually thaw so Lyta trusted Laurel. Then, just as they get to be true friends, we get Divided Loyalties in reverse.
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Jul 4, 2019 22:24
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Jul 5, 2019 19:33
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Perfect. On so many levels.
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Jul 5, 2019 19:50
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Jedit posted:With all the character's major arc functions swapped onto someone else, S1 Ivanova feels a bit like a fifth wheel. This describes Ivanova throughout the series, actually. She was conceived as the character who would make the audience most invested in the telepath arc once it became the central storyline, and then she left immediately before that happened. She had important individual episodes but was never critical to any part of the overarching story. Like Chekhov’s unfired gun.
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Jul 5, 2019 19:55
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It's like I don't even have to use a  because its already there.Wait I just did gently caress
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Jul 5, 2019 21:28
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S1E2: Soul Hunter Taken by itself, this one hasn't aged too well. W Morgan Sheppard is monotone and I half expected him to ask Delenn if she wanted to see some puppies, which is not the kind of "act creepy" they had in mind. He also somehow manages to lug a man-sized machine through half the station without being seen by anyone just because the plot demands it. It's also a bit clumsy that Franklin is introduced in an episode where there's a medical crisis. What it does do, though, is show off what was always B5's greatest strength: the way the arc is advanced organically even in standalone episodes. The show constantly foreshadowed itself and laid breadcrumbs; further, the episodes generally considered weakest are the ones where it didn't. In this case we have (S1) the Minbari belief in metempsychosis - setting up a key link in Sinclair's arc and the reason for the Minbari surrender at the Line - and the knowledge in hindsight that Delenn's plan to use the Triluminary is already in motion. That latter is a little strange when you consider that she was apparently planning it before she knew she was right about Sinclair, but on the other hand we don't know her exact motives at this point. It could also be that she had prepared to start but was waiting for the confirmation.
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Jul 6, 2019 01:24
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Jedit posted:S1E2: Soul Hunter The episode has aged fine, it's just that TV sci-fi has moved so far away from "Star Trek or nothing" that having an episode that declares "we aren't Star Trek" seems pointless. Sheppard's very deliberately playing a character who barely knows the language he's using for part of the episode, and he's given the thankless task of playing a psychotic alien, meaning he has to get into a foreign head-space and then deviate from that space. I agree that the episode doesn't do Franklin any favors, although as it turns out the first impression of him as an arrogant perfectionist is going to be spot on. The plot contrivance are indeed huge (can we get some guards on the alien's ship after he escapes, please?) but I now consider it classic early B5 to see an episode which bobbles the action part while the underlying philosophy and ontology are fascinating and expansive. We don't precisely get confirmation that souls exist at the end of the episode, but ask yourself how you respond to the scene where Delenn releases whatever it is that the Soul Hunter caught. Is she releasing souls to go on to their next lives? Freeing artificial duplicates of living beings from an existence dominated by the terror of their original's final moments? Murdering people? The way the scene is shot and framed, the sound Delenn makes, the sound effects, all contribute to a general sense of what is happening while giving us no obvious answers. Comment on the S1 spoiler above: I think Delenn was already pretty certain, after what she saw at the Line, but there's a difference between an abstract conviction that someone is your savior and actually having him save your soul. There's probably a resonance here with the story she tells about getting lost and ending up in a temple in a later season.
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Jul 6, 2019 01:40
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They really do maintain a balance throughout the series of religion as an important influence in people's lives without necessarily being physically real (aside from obvious meddling). Sci Fi/Fantasy seldom manages to thread the needle between hard atheism and actual wizards. They even consistently keep separate religions popping up, which is an important aspect of multiculturalism. They are a little curiously silent on human religions though. And maybe the vorlon-worshippers should've been more more upset when Sheridan kicked them out of the galaxy?
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Jul 6, 2019 02:41
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SlothfulCobra posted:They really do maintain a balance throughout the series of religion as an important influence in people's lives without necessarily being physically real (aside from obvious meddling). Sci Fi/Fantasy seldom manages to thread the needle between hard atheism and actual wizards. They even consistently keep separate religions popping up, which is an important aspect of multiculturalism. The Vorlons didn't have any worshippers, they preferred soft subtle touches in how they influenced others. The Shadows were the ones who had direct agents and influences.
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Jul 6, 2019 03:06
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SlothfulCobra posted:They are a little curiously silent on human religions though. I seem to recall they pretty much state humans are mostly atheist since spaceflight, I think around when Brother Theo and his monks arrive, which is why they're a curiosity.
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Jul 6, 2019 03:48
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Son of Sam-I-Am posted:I seem to recall they pretty much state humans are mostly atheist since spaceflight, I think around when Brother Theo and his monks arrive, which is why they're a curiosity. Stephen Franklin is a Foundationist, which becomes important in his Season 4 story arc, and there's a big celebration of all the Earth religions somewhere in Season 1
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Jul 6, 2019 03:53
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