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NoNostalgia4Grover posted:Honestly think I ranted about Belisarius in this thread before, but it was part of a multi-reply post. the other belisarius scene that should useful in writing a multi part story is the deposition of the pope, his wife infidelity, the court intrigue of Byzantium and the huge public riots/near revolution. any of those could be your away from the front type book or I've killed all the lizard aliens/space communists and have returned for my triumph.
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Jul 2, 2019 04:01
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I think one of the bigger issues I have with Weber particularly, and this is probably true of other Mil-SciFi authors as well, is that he often leans on "$x is a terrible person" as a justification for killing or otherwise removing $x from office. This is especially prevalent in his Safehold novels, but it shows up in the Empire of Man quadrilogy and on several occasions in the Honorverse. EDIT: Elizabeth Moon does it too, both in The Deed of Paksenarrion (and its sequelae, The Paladin's Legacy) and in her Familias Regnant series. Aerdan fucked around with this message at 05:27 on Jul 2, 2019 |
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Jul 2, 2019 05:19
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Beyond the quantity of natural dramatic hooks present in justinian's byzantium, the real reason Belisarius is re-used so often is that the nature of justinian's project appeals to the sensibilities of a Certain Type of writer belisarius might always be the hero of the story, but i don't think his own persona was the driving factor in any of these adaptations - after all, even taking procopius's testimonies at their word, we don't know much about the guy personally, other than that he was loyal to a fault and was probably cool w/ his wife boning other people. Two fine things, but not exactly exciting fodder for a heroic protagonist. IMHO it's justinian's grandiose ambitions that attract writers to the era. the quest to re-conquer the old empire from the barbarians appeals to the notion that civilization is under constant threat from savage hordes and requires Hard Men Making Hard Choices, or ~sheepdogs or whatever euphemism you want to use, to oppose them. Moreover, the ultimate doom of this quest appeals to the other great cryptofascist conviction - that their struggle, while noble and glorious, is ultimately futile
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Jul 2, 2019 05:48
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PupsOfWar posted:Beyond the quantity of natural dramatic hooks present in justinian's byzantium, the real reason Belisarius is re-used so often is that the nature of justinian's project appeals to the sensibilities of a Certain Type of writer I think that sums it up pretty well. The only thing I have to add is that for late antiquity it is pretty rare to have a surviving first hand source, even if Procopius has just a tiny bit of an axe to grind. There are a lot of Byzantine Rulers and history you could probably write a very interesting story around, but only a few other figures like Alexius Komnenos have as close a historical source as Belisarius and Justinian had. So even if we don't know a ton about him, we have a fairly big cast of characters around him to play off as well. Its also why the Late Republic of Ancient Rome is so commonly used as a setting/etc. you have a fairly dense amount of sources in a single period, which even if you chop out a lot of nuance gives you a lot to work with. It's also not just modern Sci-Fi and fantasy, people have been writing poo poo about Belisarius for centuries.
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Jul 2, 2019 07:33
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Epicurius posted:Talking about a military scifi series/author I liked, there's John Hemry. Hemry's probably most famous for the series Stark's War, which was good, but I liked his Paul Campbell series better, starting with "A Just Determination". Campbell is this junior officer on a spaceship who's picked as the captain's legal advisor, and it's sort of "JAG in space". I dunno why this guy has so many pen names but yeah I havent read a jack Campbell book I havent liked, or whatever the gently caress you want to call him
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Jul 2, 2019 09:31
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Kchama posted:Hard Choice For Hard Men is one of the things I hate the most. And of course, it's always Correct And Moral to do the Hard Choice, so why is it actually a Hard Choice? I will say that Feintuch does a pretty good job of not falling into the latter trap. Seafort makes a bunch of his Hard Choices with great reluctance because of his stupid obsession with not breaking his (oft-broken) word, and while they sometimes turn out to be better than the alternative, I don't think it's ever really portrayed as being moral. And it leaves him severely emotionally hosed up, as well. He ends up being publically lauded as a hero, but personally traumatised, and the series as a whole comes across to me as being to some extent a critique of the idea that Hard Men are all implacable heroes whose willingness to make the Hard Choice is a fundamentally good thing.
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Jul 2, 2019 10:17
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Kchama posted:Hard Choice For Hard Men is one of the things I hate the most. And of course, it's always Correct And Moral to do the Hard Choice, so why is it actually a Hard Choice? I once pitched a tv episode based on how US Special Forces actually operate that featured the Hard Man making Hard Choices to Do Torture learning that it was a loving stupid idea and having a Green Beret explain that the whiny hippie continuously mouthing off about rights and human dignity was actually right in terms of how to achieve military victory. I pitched this to a producer specializing in "ripped from the headlines" style shows, and was told that it was a boring idea that nobody would want to watch.
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Jul 2, 2019 19:48
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Re-quote book series recommendations at me(or PM me) even if they were already mentioned/re-quoted in the OP, and I'll turn the 2nd post in this thread to a giant recommendations post. Will toss in a qualifying statement like: "Recommended Mil-SciFi + Military-Fiction book series from people who've read too much bad Mil-SciFi + Mil-Fiction". Warning: Tastes may vary but these recommended series should have minimal straw-men opponents and lower than average amounts of Hard Men doing Hard Choices....these are Military Fiction + Mil-SciFi books after all.
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Jul 2, 2019 20:11
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NoNostalgia4Grover posted:Re-quote book series recommendations at me(or PM me) even if they were already mentioned/re-quoted in the OP, and I'll turn the 2nd post in this thread to a giant recommendations post. Hieronymous Alloy posted:There's also Scalzi, who basically started out with "I will write Heinlein knockoffs for money" and then gradually deconstructed the genre over the course of several sequels as his "I need money" vs "I have political beliefs" curves respectively fell and rose. Then of course Forever War probably deserves an honorable mention. Starship Troopers is, at least, explicitly anti-racist (just speciesist). Ender's Game is, despite many flaws, a well told story. Probably just as well Card never wrote any sequels though. Also the Lost Fleet series (Xenophon in Spaaaace) isn't horrible.
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Jul 2, 2019 21:36
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Yeah, I have read the Lost Fleet books and they were fine, but not anything I want to re-read. I see that the author has written a few other series in that universe (prequels and sequels).
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Jul 2, 2019 23:06
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NoNostalgia4Grover posted:Arguably, the entire nation of Japan had a *cough*deadly fascination*cough* with military fiction for forty or so years last century. Hoshino Yukinobu immediately jumps to mind for a recommendation in general, as he's done a fair number of hard science fiction and SF-horror short stories, including some "weird WW2" stories like the Temple of El Alamein (which includes a couple very satirical ones in the form of National Shame Manga, IIRC his magazine editor refused to publish them) and a manga adaption of James Hogan's Inherit the Stars.   For more directly topical stuff the main non-historical fiction things that come to mind are: Guns and Stamps: A junior supply officer gets assigned to a new post during a ongoing war and she gets dragged into various things. Plenty of departmental infighting, having to solve things before they become a official "problem", blackmarketeering, fighting with MPs, and fantastic/mundane/useless military vehicles developed at the expense of the war budget.     Yojo Senki/Tanya the Evil: I haven't actually read much of the series myself, either the manga or the LN, but it's popular. A ruthless corporate powerseeker is murdered by his subordinates and decides to argue with God at the pearly gates, as punishment he is reincarnated as a girl in a non-scientific world on the eve of it's WWI. Her attempts to get reassigned to non-combat positions are repeatedly frustrated by everybody thinking she's actually some Ernest Junger war junkie.    Groundless: A plague and years of quarantine causes a island to collapse into civil war. The wife of a murdered gunsmith tries to rescue her daughter and becomes a sniper in a militia. Sparse updates though.    hannibal posted:Yeah, I have read the Lost Fleet books and they were fine, but not anything I want to re-read. I see that the author has written a few other series in that universe (prequels and sequels). I like the series and yeah they're really books you read mainly for the space battles because everything else is just sort of generic and there. The sequel series has some interesting aliens and first contact stuff though. The main thing I can remember about the spinoff series where some Syndicate CEOs go rogue is that it had a hilariously corny romance subplot. Haven't read the prequel series yet.
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Jul 3, 2019 01:30
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Ninurta posted:So, I have a few MilSF recommendations, now that I've cleansed. Clearly you hate the representation of the battle of SF Solomon Islands.
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Jul 3, 2019 06:44
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I really liked the syndicate spin off idk. Lost Fleet is good enough I'd say it's basically the classic Big rear end Fleets series but it's not really special otherwise. I feel like Jack Campbell is better when hes writing about small groups or individuals, like in the Gensis Fleet, the Syndicate spinoff, the one that I cant remember set in a universe where FTL doesnt exist, etc
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Jul 3, 2019 06:45
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Updated 2nd post with reccomendations, OP was updated too. Tried like hell to include the soundclip that goes with my own series recommendation but apparently no-one on the internet uploaded the Khorne-laugh looping audio from 2nd to last map in original Dawn of War 1 game
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Jul 3, 2019 17:41
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NoNostalgia4Grover posted:Updated 2nd post with reccomendations, OP was updated too. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hWNsg7_D23o Might not be this one, is it?
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Jul 3, 2019 20:28
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Arcsquad12 posted:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hWNsg7_D23o Nope, not that one or the other 2 chaos marine laughs from Dawn of War 1. The one I' wanted to upload is tied to a event trigger (blood sacrifice circles? that spawns enemy units every 3 or minutes?), not a unit in DoW1. Originally found it back with the Relic Dow Mod-Helper tools a few years ago. 8 sec mp3 clip with a chill reverb-y laugh that dies off rather than the manic tinny sounding laughter of the chaos marine soundclips.
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Jul 3, 2019 23:44
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i guess if we're on MilSF reccs i could toss in the only solid weber novel, Path of the Fury NOT the expanded edition, In Fury Born a guy named Ian Douglas has written a lot of milSF that i read as a teen - i recall thinking his space marine books were alright while his longer-running space navy series (star carrier) was bad the marine books were a surreal experience since it...it was mostly standard oo-rah space marine machismo porn, but also the protagonist was a vegan wiccan and all of the marines were pan and poly. Like the future society from The Forever War but treated as unambiguously a good thing. it makes sense to me, in that american military-worship is more durable than any other cultural touchstone we have, and can be expected to endure and assimilate even as overall societal norms change but it's still a fun moment of "huh, these elements usually do not go together".
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Jul 4, 2019 03:52
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I'd rather re-read Dorsai! versus what you recommended PupsOfWar. The elements in your description made me remember two terrible book series exist that I had blocked out until now. 1)Vegan wiccan made me remember the Iron Druid books exist. 2) Thorarinn Gunnarsson's Spacewolves series with a blenderized mix of Krogans, svelte space-elfs, DBZ saiyans, proto-Ann Leckian AI battleships, and the bad guys from C. J. Cherryh's Alliance-Union series.
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Jul 4, 2019 05:07
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PupsOfWar posted:i guess if we're on MilSF reccs i could toss in the only solid weber novel, Path of the Fury Also wrote under the name William h Keith, did all the original battletech tie in novels which I remember being not bad and a whole lot of not quite battletech called warstrider. I think he had other pen names too.
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Jul 4, 2019 10:20
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PupsOfWar posted:i guess if we're on MilSF reccs i could toss in the only solid weber novel, Path of the Fury The original couple of Star Carrier books were ok, it was interesting seeing somebody actually attempting to grapple with the implications of relatavistic combat. Don't read past the original trilogy.
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Jul 4, 2019 12:50
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In proof apparently look at this thread too much... Amazon sent me this ad.Amazon posted:FIRST NEW HONOR HARRINGTON NOVEL IN FIVE YEARS! New York Times, USA Today, Wall Street Journal and international best-selling phenomenon David Weber delivers book #19 in the multiple New York Times best-selling Honor Harrington series, the first new Honor Harrington novel since 2013's Shadow of Freedom. This book came out after five years and I don't know anything about it besides its description and it's basically just "Here comes Honor to easily crush yet another foe". Oh joy.
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Jul 5, 2019 18:32
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i saw it in the Store a couple of weeks ago and flipped to the back 2 see how it all ends it ends...exactly how u think PupsOfWar fucked around with this message at 20:02 on Jul 5, 2019 |
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Jul 5, 2019 19:03
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I bought it the day the ebook became available I know these books are bad but I still love them
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Jul 5, 2019 19:50
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Guessing it took David Weber 6 months to enter all the ship names/ship loadouts into his copy of Gratuitous Space Battles, 4 years for GSB to process the trillions of missile-spam strikes, 3 months to transcribe the results, 1 week getting the latest version of Honor Harrington potrait properly Photoshopped in without losing the qualities of oversized bolded fonts and glossiness of cover-art that defines Baen Books cover-art, 3 days to write the story framing the battles, 2 days to write the dialogue, and 1 day of editing. Dorsai! re-read wasn't bad. Not good or terrible, it predates most mil-scifi while also serving as the template Frank Herbert would use half a decade later with his Dune series. e: oh yeah. Willing to share that amusing-2-me W40k Dawn of War 1 soundclip through Discord or something. quantumfoam fucked around with this message at 20:20 on Jul 5, 2019 |
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Jul 5, 2019 20:12
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Where has this thread been all my life? I put up a Safehold review in the old Bonfire thread, but you guys hit all the highlights (no dramatic tension, idiotic names, recycling a previously used concept from Mutineer's Moon, etc) Honor Harrington is just the worst too. Highlights of the few books I remember reading: -that loving psychic cat that's smarter than you -The Nazi Communist French Revolutionary officer running a prison camp discussing how she really, really likes raping prisoners -The mind-controlled Solarian admiral who's a pedo I'm not sure how much of this poo poo is Weber's politics, his inability to create compelling villains, or a realization that if his villains were sympathetic it'd be harder to write their demise in a storm of missile fire. OP, please link this from the OP. Apparently Weber himself read it and was very sad.
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Jul 5, 2019 21:14
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Weber is rear end. Say what you will about John 'Sex Weirdo' Ringo but at least I remember what happened in most of his books although there's so many posleen war ones it gets mixed up in my head. Whereas I read every Harrington novel and cant remember anything about it besides the weirdly sympathetic tone towards the Grayson Christian Fascists. Nothing is more horrifically disgusting to me than women not having rights lol.
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Jul 5, 2019 21:22
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NoNostalgia4Grover posted:Guessing it took David Weber 6 months to enter all the ship names/ship loadouts into his copy of Gratuitous Space Battles, 4 years for GSB to process the trillions of missile-spam strikes, 3 months to transcribe the results, 1 week getting the latest version of Honor Harrington potrait properly Photoshopped in without losing the qualities of oversized bolded fonts and glossiness of cover-art that defines Baen Books cover-art, 3 days to write the story framing the battles, 2 days to write the dialogue, and 1 day of editing. There's a very amusing story about the wargame version of Honorverse where they tried to take David's ship names/stated loadouts and turn them into the wargame's units, but quickly hit some issues and noticed some oddities. One was that the actual description of the ships wouldn't have any actual bearing on what the ship was life, probably because Weber just made them up on the fly and didn't compare them to other ships. So there was stuff like a described specifically lightly-armed-even-for-its-type ship, which was fine on its own except he also had a ship described as VERY heavily armed for its type, and it was the... exact same type as the previous ship, and the previous ship was a lot more heavily armed. Also the attempt to wargamify Honorverse led to the Great Resizing, because the wargame people noticed an issue with Weber's ships in general. Namely, at their stated size and mass, they would have to be made out of styrofoam to manage, as they were massively big but super light. Which led to all the ship dimensions being decreased. TheGreatEvilKing posted:I'm not sure how much of this poo poo is Weber's politics, his inability to create compelling villains, or a realization that if his villains were sympathetic it'd be harder to write their demise in a storm of missile fire. I'd say it's A and B. It's very very clear who is going to die and who is going to defect and be a good guy just by if they're 100% evil or not. Larry Parrish posted:Weber is rear end. Say what you will about John 'Sex Weirdo' Ringo but at least I remember what happened in most of his books although there's so many posleen war ones it gets mixed up in my head. Whereas I read every Harrington novel and cant remember anything about it besides the weirdly sympathetic tone towards the Grayson Christian Fascists. Nothing is more horrifically disgusting to me than women not having rights lol. You should probably avoid most Ringo books too as he's not good on anything. Also 'weirdly sympathetic tone' nothing. The Graysons are basically the other protagonist nation of the setting and Honor thinks they're the greatest thing ever very quickly, and they're quickly described as benevolent chauvinists and the whole 'no rights for women' thing is an endearing quirk you're suppose to like.
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Jul 5, 2019 22:00
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PupsOfWar posted:i saw it in the Store a couple of weeks ago and flipped to the back 2 see how it all ends Well, fill us in... does she glass Earth?
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Jul 5, 2019 22:49
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hannibal posted:Well, fill us in... does she glass Earth? So I looked it up and she just blows up all space infrastructure and ships in orbit and immediately the Good Guy Solarians coup the villianous leaders and Honor retires to be pregnant and oh yeah her husband and dad that she thought killed midway through the book turned out to be alive because they just happened to be in a survival part of the space station that was nuked or something. But the queen is sure that the next time evil arises, Honor will unretire to be the supreme commander of Manticore again. THE END.
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Jul 5, 2019 23:21
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i think the weirdest thing Baen does is publish teachers' guides to their books they've been doing this for a while now like who is assigning Baen novels in class is anyone doing this? i dont think anyone is doing this , surely, Kchama posted:So I looked it up and she just blows up all space infrastructure and ships in orbit and immediately the Good Guy Solarians coup the villianous leaders this is notable in that it is the exact same way the Havenite war ended w/ the exception of adding an (imho) pretty gross resolution to honor's family drama
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Jul 6, 2019 01:34
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"Quiz/Reading Comprehension Questions–multiple choice/short answer questions to test reading comprehension: 1. Who are the “Dolists” and what problem do they pose for the Republic of Haven? (chap. 1) answer to 1 ". The Dolists are the “mob,” the people who have supported Haven’s wars in order to have a better standard of living. They are “on the dole,” dependent on government support to live. The are “useless drones” who are sucking up resources without contributing. Their demands contribute to Haven’s need to conquer new territory in order to keep their economy viable" that's not how welfare works, weber!
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Jul 6, 2019 02:00
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PupsOfWar posted:i think the weirdest thing Baen does is publish teachers' guides to their books I never heard of anyone ever using a Baen Book in a classroom. Thankfully ever. And yeah it is literally how the Havenite war ended. Oh man yes I totally forgot while I was typing it up that that the fake death of her father and husband resulted in her husband's other wife dying in grief so that when the husband comes back alive well, she's out of the picture! And Honor is pregnant! StrixNebulosa posted:"Quiz/Reading Comprehension Questions–multiple choice/short answer questions to Weber has some real hosed up views on thing and well, Grayson and Haven kind of just, embody his lovely views.
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Jul 6, 2019 02:02
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w/r/t the study guide, i do appreciate that the loving weird prose style of those questions makes it clear that weber himself wrote them, for some reasonKchama posted:I never heard of anyone ever using a Baen Book in a classroom. Thankfully ever. i did see a book forum once where a woman was arguing that one of the ringo/kratman posleen novels should be taught in school though i think she was just impressed by the essay in the back about how the EPA is administered by jewish cannibal lizardmen or whatever which could be taught separately i suppose PupsOfWar fucked around with this message at 02:07 on Jul 6, 2019 |
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Jul 6, 2019 02:04
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StrixNebulosa posted:"Quiz/Reading Comprehension Questions–multiple choice/short answer questions to Not only is that not how welfare works, the whole People's Republic of Haven is not in any way how welfare states happen. There are a handful of real-life examples (like Saudi Arabia), but they formed to ensure that power remained in the hands of the elites, not in furtherance of equality. Moreover, the 'mob' in such states has no real power or ability to acquire any, and their governments do their best to keep it that way. Even with Mesan Alignment influence, it's just not possible to turn a functional democracy into that kind of welfare state.
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Jul 6, 2019 03:08
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Aerdan posted:Not only is that not how welfare works, the whole People's Republic of Haven is not in any way how welfare states happen. There are a handful of real-life examples (like Saudi Arabia), but they formed to ensure that power remained in the hands of the elites, not in furtherance of equality. Moreover, the 'mob' in such states has no real power or ability to acquire any, and their governments do their best to keep it that way. Even with Mesan Alignment influence, it's just not possible to turn a functional democracy into that kind of welfare state. Well, yeah. But Weber has no idea how this poo poo works. He said in one of his Pearls of Weber that Haven is explicitly America and its welfare system. So even though he's drawing on a specific thing, he literally has no idea how it works. Kchama fucked around with this message at 03:48 on Jul 6, 2019 |
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Jul 6, 2019 03:45
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Kchama posted:Well, yeah. But Weber has no idea how this poo poo works. He said in one of his Pearls of Weber that Haven is explicitly America and its welfare system. So even though he's drawing on a specific thing, he literally has no idea how it works. aaaggghhh As a disabled person who cannot work and relies on the government and my parents to keep me afloat this pisses me off extra hard. Also can you imagine the sheer lack of empathy it takes to decide that it would be okay for poverty to exist
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Jul 6, 2019 03:59
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StrixNebulosa posted:aaaggghhh It's okay. You can just live in Space Britain where the hobos are actually billionaires compared to other nations and even homeless children have a better education than any other nation's colleges. This is something he actually said in one of his Pearls of Weber, showing he knows how poverty works. Kchama fucked around with this message at 04:30 on Jul 6, 2019 |
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Jul 6, 2019 04:23
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TheGreatEvilKing posted:Where has this thread been all my life? I put up a Safehold review in the old Bonfire thread, but you guys hit all the highlights (no dramatic tension, idiotic names, recycling a previously used concept from Mutineer's Moon, etc) Welcome friend. What's your favorite mil-scifi/military series or author? And what are the worse mil-scifi/military fiction genre authors/books you've encountered? My personal favorite mil-scifi series is Bill the Galactic Hero. First book was amazing, 2nd book was amusing, 3rd book was ok, the remaining sequels were ehhh. The worse mil-scifi series I've read is a toss-up, because I've read so so much terrible genre fiction by so many military-fiction + mil-scifi authors the terribleness + WarCriming in them has blended together. Gun to my head, Pick the worst Mil-SciFi/Military-fiction series I've read or die: I'd ask the gunman if I could pick the caliber of the bullet that kills me, perhaps that .454 handgun from Alien Nation, or the insane handgun conversion .50 cal round. Adding that link to the thread OP or 2nd post.
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Jul 6, 2019 06:03
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On the topic of "good" MilSF is there any title out there with a particularly interesting take on space combat? I was watching a trailer for that new FPS game where astronauts have guns and they fight in zero G and all I could think was "this would be a bloodbath in real life" because no ACS could move an astronaut fast enough to dodge a bullet without also killing or crippling the user due to the forces at play. The big issue I find with a lot of SF space warfare in the MilSF subgenre is that it is really easy to come up with caveats that make your proposed method of combat appear suicidal, and the only solution is to continually move away from micro scale conflict to macro scale where you have tens of thousands of remote operated drone ships fighting across millions of kilometers in pre-planned maneuvers that have taken years to position properly. The vastness of space and the difference of fighting in a vacuum compared to terrestrial or atmospheric engagements is so overwhelming at times I have trouble comprehending how we would actually do it in a way that isn't completely insane or predetermined to be genocidal. So if realism is out the window, what are some interesting ways that MilSF books deputy space warfare? Better yet, is there a book that takes my issues above with the troubles of fighting in space and proposes the solution "we fight really, really poorly"? Like the people within the book admit they do t know how to fight in space, and the solutions they fall upon are acknowledged to be terrible and costly and a driving factor is finding better ways to fight that aren't horrendous disasters.
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Jul 6, 2019 06:28
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Eh. Some of them do. But a lot of authors just shrug and go 'this is all powered by a fusion reactor that will go critical if the containment vessel is cracked' so ships mostly just blow up horrifically. The infantry sci fi war books are usually insanely bloody though, like the Warp Marine Corps for example straight up has most cultures using genocide bombs as their preferred doctrine (mostly because the elder races love to keep planets habitable so they just give everyone the plans for super effective space napalm, basically). For some reason it's mostly former infantry guys who are the ones going 'yeah a war on a interplanetary scale would make WW2 or the Taiping Rebellion look like a bar fight'
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Jul 6, 2019 06:42
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