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Maybe part of this is Vegeta fighting with PTSD over it being Namek: The Sequel: Again: Flashback Central
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Jul 19, 2019 18:23
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I think it’s worth keeping in mind that weird gimmicks and powers really haven’t been all that prevalent in DB after Vegeta appears, except when they are used in order to facilitate punching better. Buu had weird powers, but most were basically just fancy ways to do violence to people. Now all of a sudden, they’re up against a villain who is almost entirely tricks and weird spells, and he’s kicking their asses. In addition, people much weaker than Vegeta are able to hold their own though similar means, and Buu (oh, I’m sorry, “Boo”) is stranger than ever. The fact that Vegeta has prioritized raw strength over all else means he’s suddenly at a huge disadvantage. While Vegeta is frequently behind Goku on the power scale (and not as much as of Super, barring things like Ultra Instinct), his issue is usually that he’s not doing what they both do good enough. Now all of a sudden everyone’s playing a different game, and he’s left completely unprepared. Vegeta’s had a lot of character development, but it still makes sense for him to be really frustrated by this development. Now we just have to see if he decides to double-down on “strength over all else” or actually decides to diversify a bit. It’d be really strange for Vegeta to learn instant-transmission when it was Goku’s thing for so long, but it was already pretty weird that nobody else wanted to learn it so maybe it’s about time. (Alternatively I might just be putting too much thought into this when consistent character development isn’t really a priority in DB, but that’s no fun, is it?)
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Jul 19, 2019 18:44
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Wasn't Vegeta the person who came up with the idea of using Super Saiyan God and then going to Blue as soon as his punches connect against Black so he can fight on his level and also con him into getting hit in the manga's Future Trunks Arc? It feels weird to say Vegeta only ever focuses on power when the manga itself established he knows how to innovate when brute force doesn't work.
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Jul 19, 2019 19:09
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Yeah but that’s mostly through clever use of powering up and is still mostly used to punch better/more efficiently. It’s not really the same type of thing as teleportation or outright magic. I think maybe the implication is that he sees the techniques themselves as the problem, rather than the usage? I’ll be honest, there doesn’t seem to be a perfect way to make it all fit, but I think this is the intention
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Jul 19, 2019 19:17
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Nanigans posted:Toriyama wrote this, not Toyotaro. He’s strictly art now. We have no real proof of this. At best we know Toriyama is more involved, but it's not like this isn't Toyotaro's manga still, and this chapter definitely felt far more like old Toyotaro stuff than the rest of the arc (lots of text, wasting time, Vegeta going back to Cell arc Vegeta). That said we literally can do nothing but speculate on how much % of the manga is each so I'm not going to praise Toriyama for stuff getting better or blame Toyotaro for stuff getting worse since I have no idea what's going on behind the scenes. This just felt more like Toyotaro's usual writing than the rest of this arc that's been, you know, actually good. CharlestheHammer posted:I mean this is Dragonball tricks dont work. Tricks work when they allow you to have more raw power though, it's why Moro's doing so well, or how Goku killed Buu. Captain Baal posted:Wasn't Vegeta the person who came up with the idea of using Super Saiyan God and then going to Blue as soon as his punches connect against Black so he can fight on his level and also con him into getting hit in the manga's Future Trunks Arc? It feels weird to say Vegeta only ever focuses on power when the manga itself established he knows how to innovate when brute force doesn't work. Toyotaro also had Vegeta claim he had never trained under anyone when him training under Whis is kind of vital for Super from Resurrection "F" onwards so that kind of contradiction is hardly unexpected.
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Jul 19, 2019 19:20
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Yeah I mean the only real trick that ever did anything is KK but even that’s not really a trick just a power boost you can’t overuse
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Jul 19, 2019 19:21
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It wouldn't be the first time Vegeta has realized they need to do something he didn't like, you might be overthinking it.
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Jul 19, 2019 19:26
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Jul 19, 2019 20:14
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I can't believe Moro called in Bojack and gang for backup
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Jul 19, 2019 20:57
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Vegeta should go back to trying to use Zenkai to get stronger.
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Jul 19, 2019 22:16
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Faustian Bargain posted:Vegeta should go back to trying to use Zenkai to get stronger. Now I want a revelatory montage of escalating death scenarios over the years where Vegeta gets iced by perhaps-a-bit-too-eager friends and wished back by an increasingly annoyed wife.
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Jul 19, 2019 22:39
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Blaze Dragon posted:
When Vegeta said that Whis gave him a "bitch you serious" face. Also I liked the chapter and think Moro gaining a bunch of actually problematic mooks is cool.
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Jul 19, 2019 23:12
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 every fight in Z up until the very end.jpg
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Jul 19, 2019 23:40
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Faustian Bargain posted:Vegeta should go back to trying to use Zenkai to get stronger. I'm pretty sure the manga itself pointed out that Zenkai doesn't work for Goku and Vegeta anymore. Trunks said it after seeing Goku Black get ever-stronger after getting beaten down (constantly because manga Black is terrible) but Goku and Vegeta not change at all.
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Jul 20, 2019 00:46
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it was cool seeing goku black be a super saiyan
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Jul 20, 2019 00:50
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Blaze Dragon posted:I'm pretty sure the manga itself pointed out that Zenkai doesn't work for Goku and Vegeta anymore. Trunks said it after seeing Goku Black get ever-stronger after getting beaten down (constantly because manga Black is terrible) but Goku and Vegeta not change at all. Would not be surprised if that got to the point of diminishing returns for them a long time ago. Also even though raw power tends to win fights in the end, it's tricks that allow the heroes to survive long enough to do so. I figure Vegeta, while being very cunning when he needs to be and having solid fighting fundamentals, hasn't had the same kind of diverse adventures that Goku has, having spent his childhood as a Saiyan child soldier who can annihilate most everyone with ease and pull out Oozaru as a trump card. He picks up basic things like sensing energy after realising that the Earth warriors can do so, and diversifies his moveset a little, but most of his techniques are just putting out bigger bursts of raw power (which tend to ALMOST work, see Cell). And by Super he seems to have gotten a bit more creative and seems to specialise in counter-moves. But he's not a fan of learning tricks for the sheer hell of it like Goku. Hell, it's interesting that Goku learned the Fusion Dance despite openly not being a fan of having to use it (and never getting around to it at all outside of movies) and not having any viable partners to do it with in the afterlife, but he got it down perfectly enough to teach it anyway.
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Jul 20, 2019 03:45
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I mean so do piccolo and I’m pretty sure he only saw it used once
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Jul 20, 2019 03:55
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Half of Dracula posted:I can't believe Moro called in Bojack and gang for backup Everything is canon.
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Jul 20, 2019 04:14
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I mean, it's kinda obvious Vegeta is throwing away his stupid Saiyan pride to pick up some new tricks, seeing that he finishes that whole spiel with a..."and yet..." plus an annoyed look.
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Jul 20, 2019 05:30
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Why didn't Piccolo teach Gohan the fusion dance before the tournament of power?
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Jul 20, 2019 06:58
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PaletteSwappedNinja posted:Why didn't Piccolo teach Gohan the fusion dance before the tournament of power?
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Jul 20, 2019 10:34
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Half of Dracula posted:I can't believe Moro called in Bojack and gang for backup Honestly I'd have actually been alright if they made Bojack Spaceman canon via the prison break, makes plenty sense that he'd be locked up by the galactic patrol. They might have even been able to make him not-boring which sounds impossible but nu-Broly was cool so it could happen.
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Jul 20, 2019 11:39
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OG DragonBall was underrated, King Piccolo saga was dope, and 23rd Budokai tournament with Goku and Piccolo Jr ruled more than most stuff in Z. I really liked the greater emphasis on fighting that looked like actual martial arts with some energy blasts thrown in vs complete emphasis on transformations and power ups in Z during Frieza and afterwards.
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Jul 20, 2019 11:52
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Teriyaki Koinku posted:OG DragonBall was underrated ah yes, the series which so exploded in popularity we're still talking about it decades later is definitely underrated. (Actually it is really bad, unfortunately, because of the Bulma/Roshi parts)
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Jul 20, 2019 20:21
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Teriyaki Koinku posted:OG DragonBall was underrated, King Piccolo saga was dope, and 23rd Budokai tournament with Goku and Piccolo Jr ruled more than most stuff in Z. I mean the two sagas you mention are the real start of Z. Like they are technically OG Dragonball but most of the tropes that dominate Z started there
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Jul 20, 2019 20:47
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And yet Goku never used Kamehameha with his feet again.
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Jul 21, 2019 02:56
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Goku actually instinctually always uses feet kamehameha to move around quicker, we just can’t see them.
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Jul 21, 2019 04:33
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It's hosed how Goku has never used a butt kamehameha
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Jul 21, 2019 05:23
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Testekill posted:It's hosed how Goku has never used a butt kamehameha I saw that one on Newgrounds once
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Jul 21, 2019 05:25
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PaletteSwappedNinja posted:Why didn't Piccolo teach Gohan the fusion dance before the tournament of power? Kind of the thing with the Fusion Dance is implicitly it only works properly with fighters who are physically similar, at least with what we've seen of it. Piccolo I presume picked it up out of necessity and because he's also pretty drat good at martial arts and understanding physical techniques after watching them, but he's never had a need to actually use it given Namekians have their own method. Gohan doesn't really have anybody like that who'd be a viable candidate. Wouldn't be surprised if Goku learned it for the sheer novelty factor of it and maybe with Vegeta in mind as a partner, though realised after some thought that he doesn't really want to have to use it since it wouldn't really be him winning those fights.
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Jul 21, 2019 09:39
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Ghost Leviathan posted:Kind of the thing with the Fusion Dance is implicitly it only works properly with fighters who are physically similar, at least with what we've seen of it. Piccolo I presume picked it up out of necessity and because he's also pretty drat good at martial arts and understanding physical techniques after watching them, but he's never had a need to actually use it given Namekians have their own method. Gohan doesn't really have anybody like that who'd be a viable candidate. Goku, Yamcha, Tien, Vegeta... Gohan basically has Goku's build. If Goku and Vegeta are close enough in build for it to work, Gohan and the rest certainly are. Piccolo would probably work, too. Since he doesn't have another Namekian around other than Dende, he would have to rely on it. Also, Piccolo picked up the dance because Goku taught him it so they could show Goten and Trunks. So, necessity sure, but he specifically learned to to be able to teach it.
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Jul 21, 2019 09:43
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Testekill posted:It's hosed how Goku has never used a butt kamehameha
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Jul 21, 2019 10:02
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Maybe dad/son fusion just comes off as too weird. Though we might see it in Steven Universe first if they can get Jack Black.
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Jul 21, 2019 10:26
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Ghost Leviathan posted:Kind of the thing with the Fusion Dance is implicitly it only works properly with fighters who are physically similar, at least with what we've seen of it. Piccolo I presume picked it up out of necessity and because he's also pretty drat good at martial arts and understanding physical techniques after watching them, but he's never had a need to actually use it given Namekians have their own method. Gohan doesn't really have anybody like that who'd be a viable candidate. I find that kind of hilarious because it reminds me a lot of what happens in late-GT, where Uub points out that fusing with Gohan would be a completely viable tactic, but Gohan refuses because why would you allow anyone other than Goku to matter in Dragon Ball Goku Time? On the same token, Goten and Trunks also try to fuse at one point, but Goku refuses because they wouldn't be strong enough anyways. Unlike Gohuub up there, Gotenks GT finally did end up happening thanks to Heroes. Though oddly enough, he's shown with the exact same personality he had as a child in spite of the GT versions of Trunks and Goten acting very differently from their Z versions (by turning into poo poo Future Trunks in the first case, and by actually having a personality in the second). Ghost Leviathan posted:Maybe dad/son fusion just comes off as too weird. Though we might see it in Steven Universe first if they can get Jack Black. We got a few of those in games though. Heroes has Vegeks (Xeno), the Potara fusion of the Xeno versions of Vegeta and Trunks, while Fusions has Kuhan (DB Goku + Cell Saga Gohan), Vegenks (Vegeta + Future Trunks), Pandel (GT Pan + Z Videl) and Baroto (Bardock + Goku), all formed through EX Fusion.
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Jul 21, 2019 14:04
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TheHan posted:Goku actually instinctually always uses feet kamehameha to move around quicker, we just can’t see them. You're joking, but he totally uses it in MUI against Jiren to do mini-Tony Hawks grinds.
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Jul 21, 2019 14:19
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Blaze Dragon posted:I find that kind of hilarious because it reminds me a lot of what happens in late-GT, where Uub points out that fusing with Gohan would be a completely viable tactic, but Gohan refuses because why would you allow anyone other than Goku to matter in Dragon Ball Goku Time? A saiyan-human-majin hybrid fusion sounds like something that would be really cool to watch. And beyond the games, it kind of blows my mind that they haven't played with Fusion as much as they have with Saiyan Transformations. It wouldn't just be fun to see what wacky combos people can fuse into, but also might make them capable of keeping up with the ridiculous power creep, since fusions are supposed to be such a big leap in power levels. What I'm saying is, Prillin, Tiencha and Natz need to be canon.
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Jul 21, 2019 14:30
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Tin Can Hit Man posted:A saiyan-human-majin hybrid fusion sounds like something that would be really cool to watch. There's a 3ds game that's all about wacky fusions
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Jul 21, 2019 22:29
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Calaveron posted:There's a 3ds game that's all about wacky fusions It saddens me that I know we'll never get a Fusions 2 because the original was a low-budget game for a console basically made for those, and now Nintendo only has the relatively high-powered Switch as an option. Fusions was such an interesting and bizarre game, I'd love it to become a proper franchise so much.
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Jul 21, 2019 22:41
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On the topic of hypothetical Dragon Ball games, one idea I've had for ages is an RPG that would cover the entire saga(including Movies and other side materials), with the main gimmick being that you'd be able to recruit am extremely wide assortment of characters throughout the game and unlike in canon if you put the effort in you can have pretty much any character keep pace with the Saiyans* *somewhat influenced by that one game they did on the Super Famicom where you could with effort keep characters alive and bring them to Namek and make them stronger(including having Chiaotzu be the one Captain Ginyu bodyjacks and thus become a lot stronger through it)
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Jul 21, 2019 23:22
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Blaze Dragon posted:It saddens me that I know we'll never get a Fusions 2 because the original was a low-budget game for a console basically made for those, and now Nintendo only has the relatively high-powered Switch as an option. Super Dragon Ball Heroes shows they'll make a game that looks like hot rancid rear end for the sake of having a million billion characters so don't give up hope
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Jul 21, 2019 23:39
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