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The SituAsian
Oct 29, 2006

I'm a mess in distress
But we're still the best dressed
Nothing witty or especially poignant I can add. just so terrible. Thoughts with his family, loved ones and team.

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Jump King
Aug 10, 2011

Extremely distressing for so many reasons. Not the least of which includes things like Buddy McGirt’s hero stoppage that seemed like it could save his life but wasn’t enough. ESPN televising the man’s last conscious moments alive was also harrowing.

RIP. I should probably stop watching this sport.

Digital Jedi
May 28, 2007

Fallen Rib

MMM Whatchya Say posted:

Extremely distressing for so many reasons. Not the least of which includes things like Buddy McGirt’s hero stoppage that seemed like it could save his life but wasn’t enough. ESPN televising the man’s last conscious moments alive was also harrowing.

RIP. I should probably stop watching this sport.

https://twitter.com/arielhelwani/status/1153692573858500608

Marching Powder
Mar 8, 2008



stop the fucking fight, cornerman, your dude is fucking done and is about to be killed.

i can't imagine what must be going through his head. these things happen sometimes and hell sometimes it's not even down to negligence or incompetence. sometimes....

rip. this sucks.

Jump King
Aug 10, 2011

Yeah the real shocking thing to me is that there’s no obvious point where things went wrong. It could have been stopped sooner, but there wasn’t any particularly must stop moment before the corner stoppage came. They could have stretchered him out earlier, but they didn’t take an egregious amount of time to put him in the ambulance.

Sometimes, even when the corner makes a compassionate stoppage, and even when they take damage seriously and try to rush him straight to the hospital, this stuff happens because boxing is just a vile sport.

kimbo305
Jun 9, 2007

actually, yeah, I am a little mad
He looks beat up and somewhat dazed on the stool, but not in a way that makes you think that he wouldn't survive it. We know so little about TBIs yet.

Any word from Matias?

Monday Bandele
Apr 26, 2008

MMM Whatchya Say posted:

Yeah the real shocking thing to me is that there’s no obvious point where things went wrong. It could have been stopped sooner, but there wasn’t any particularly must stop moment before the corner stoppage came. They could have stretchered him out earlier, but they didn’t take an egregious amount of time to put him in the ambulance.

Sometimes, even when the corner makes a compassionate stoppage, and even when they take damage seriously and try to rush him straight to the hospital, this stuff happens because boxing is just a vile sport.

I feel like many of these kinds of tragedies have the same perfect storm of factors - two evenly matched fighters on paper, where one fighter is taking serious punishment but still doing enough to remain competitive. Even in the 11th round, Dadashev was throwing back and never completely out on his feet. McGirt saw the warning signs and stopped it but I bet many trainers would have sent hm back out there.

The biggest change that should be made is strict protocol after the fight has concluded that involves a knockout or goes a certain number of rounds - on a televised Top Rank card in the USA, there's no excuse for the delay in getting Dadashev to the hospital. Sadly nobody has learned from the Abdusalamov incident.

Truther Vandross
Jun 17, 2008

The time McGirt stopped it is probably the same time I would have tbh. He was getting beat handily but he was still firing back and it wasn't until the 11th that I felt like he was just in there going through the motions. He just looked overmatched the first 10 rounds, but he was still giving plenty. In the 11th he seemed to stop firing back much and what he was firing was not even remotely hard enough to do anything, so I can get where McGirt was coming from 100%.

And I agree with the above most that almost any other trainer would've just let him get wrecked for another three minutes.

colachute
Mar 15, 2015

That would weight really loving heavy on me if I beat someone to death

rest his guts
Mar 3, 2013

...pls father forgive me
for my terrible post history...
Haven't followed boxing for awhile, but hearing about this one really hosed me up. RIP Maxim, stay strong Matias.

quote:

"No one is prepared to die while looking for dreams and goals. We simply go up to the ring thinking about the well-being for our family without knowing how complicated and difficult it is to get into the ring. Fly high great warrior. Only God knows the reason of things. You will always have my respects. RIP Maxim Dadashev," Matias stated.

https://www.boxingscene.com/subriel-matias-devastated-over-news-dadashevs-passing--141176

Dirt Road Junglist
Oct 8, 2010

We will be cruel
And through our cruelty
They will know who we are
I watch racing, which is unsafe enough that it's basically inevitable that someone will die regularly, but rationalizing it doesn't make it any easier.

I hope his family has plenty of support. loving gutting to read about.

ccubed
Jul 14, 2016

How's it hanging, brah?
Multiple sources have confirmed that an "A" sample taken from Dillian Whyte tested positive for one or more banned substances prior to Whyte's July 20 fight in London against Oscar Rivas.

Jump King
Aug 10, 2011

Hearn in shambles

Jump King
Aug 10, 2011

Extremely stupid take here, but I’m glad. Whyte cleaning out a lot of C-B level opponents and getting suspended really frees up the top 4 guys to fight each other.

thehappyprince
Apr 4, 2006

Alastair Cock

apparently the result came back before the fight and it was still allowed to happen so? maybe it wasn’t a performance enhancer or something?

Cigar Aficionado
Nov 1, 2004

"Patel"? Fuck you.

MMM Whatchya Say posted:

Extremely stupid take here, but I’m glad. Whyte cleaning out a lot of C-B level opponents and getting suspended really frees up the top 4 guys to fight each other.

True. Realistically, the next year should be reserved for Wilder vs Fury 2 and Joshua vs Ruiz 2, and then the winners of those fights fighting each-other in the summer. With Whyte potentially out of the way for awhile, it makes the ideal scenario much more possible. Of course, the IBF could always try to force Kubrat Pulev on somebody next as a mandatory and screw it up.

Fingers crossed for that huge fight actually happening.

GalacticAcid
Apr 8, 2013

NEW YORK VALUES
Jesus man

Hugo Santillan dead: Argentine boxer passes away aged 23 after injuries suffered at weekend vs Eduardo Javier Abreu

Jump King
Aug 10, 2011

Maybe boxing isn’t an ethical sport to watch.

Jack B Nimble
Dec 25, 2007


Soiled Meat
I was at kickboxing last night and realized that the boxing news I wanted to pass around this time was the recent death and what questions it raised about the sport, but I kept my mouth shut to not be a downer. But yeah. I didn't think anyone there would want to hear it but it was on my mind.

GalacticAcid
Apr 8, 2013

NEW YORK VALUES
The Queensberry Rules published a discussion along those lines, if you’re interested.

Jack B Nimble
Dec 25, 2007


Soiled Meat
My gut reaction is that boxing != prize fighting. Thanks for the link though, I'm gonna read that asap.

Edit: I can hear Teddy Atlas in my head, telling me that boxing has done do much for so many young men.

Jack B Nimble fucked around with this message at 16:54 on Jul 25, 2019

thehappyprince
Apr 4, 2006

Alastair Cock

jesus christ

confirmed here that what whyte tested positive for is a ped and not recreational btw. lifetime ban imo
https://twitter.com/boxing_social/status/1154420870275842048

have to wonder why the fight was allowed to go ahead

thehappyprince fucked around with this message at 17:51 on Jul 25, 2019

thehappyprince
Apr 4, 2006

Alastair Cock

https://twitter.com/boxingscene/status/1154448140176523266

quote:

The amount of epimethandienone and hydroxymethandienone found in Whyte's "A" sample was very small. It could have been ingested as part of a supplement rather than the direct ingestion of Dianabol tablets. But the WADA standard for epimethandienone and hydroxymethandienone is qualitative, not quantitative. In order words, any amount of epimethandienone or hydroxymethandienone in an athlete's system is a violation of the WADA code.
🤔🤔

Monday Bandele
Apr 26, 2008

He fainted and they physically held him up and waited so they could announce the draw. Makes what happened after the Dadashev fight seem like a textbook health and safety drill. Argentine boxing is the Wild West, full of dodgy cards with guys fighting under fake identities and cowboy organisations - https://www.bloodyelbow.com/2016/11/2/13482778/fake-fights-dangerous-mismatches-inside-the-underworld-argentina-boxing-feature-story

kimbo305
Jun 9, 2007

actually, yeah, I am a little mad

Jack B Nimble posted:

My gut reaction is that boxing != prize fighting.

Is there some other sport that you do consider prize fighting? Just wondering where the label would apply or matter.

Jump King
Aug 10, 2011

GalacticAcid posted:

The Queensberry Rules published a discussion along those lines, if you’re interested.

quote:

Lastly, this sport is littered with deaths, ruined lives, and unpaid medical bills. What would have to happen for you to finally say “gently caress this” and walk away?

I honestly don’t know. And that kind of bothers me.

This is about how I feel currently

Jack B Nimble
Dec 25, 2007


Soiled Meat

kimbo305 posted:

Is there some other sport that you do consider prize fighting? Just wondering where the label would apply or matter.

Pro MMA, pro kickboxing. I just meant that learning to do them as a hobby isn't the same thing as earning a living as a pro fighter. And really, I know that they're inseparable, but that was my intial reaction to "why do I like doing this thing at a baby level, but get increasingly uncomfortable watching the highest expression of it"

The Ninth Layer
Jun 20, 2007

MMM Whatchya Say posted:

This is about how I feel currently

I've also been struggling a lot with this question this week.

Boxing isn't an ethical sport to watch and events like the two deaths this week are a stark reminder why. On some level by watching the sport or even just talking about it we are enabling the long term damage, short term injuries, and possibly fatal outcomes that happen because people fight each other for money. Boxing would still be a sport if none of us were watching it or talked about it, though. These things would still happen, albeit in front of smaller crowds and audiences. Even if the sport were banned it would probably continue underground in some form, with even less oversight.

I've justified my own fandom by reasoning that because I pay attention to events, talk about them and occasionally spend money on them, I am at least contributing to a higher payday for the boxers I follow. But I don't know if this justification really stands up for the majority of boxers, who don't make hundreds or even tens of thousands of dollars every time they fight. If I ever decided that my watching was causing more harm than good I think I would have to become an advocate for seeing the sport banned, since all this stuff would still be happening whether I was watching or not. The truth is I'm probably going to continue watching, I'll invent new justifications, and then more tragedies will happen because of it and I'll just have to find a way of reconciling that.

I'd like to say that individually there's not much we can do, that this issue just comes down to how supporting the sport personally makes me feel... but I don't really think that is true. The real issue is that there are specific changes that I and other fans could agitate for that would make the sport safer for fighters, but those things run counter to my interests as a fight fan / sports consumer. For example we could push for even less rounds in boxing, perhaps going from 12 to 8 or even 6. It wouldn't be the first time the sport reduced the round count in the interest of fighter safety. But when I think about this, I also can't help but think about all the great moments in the sport we would lose if that happened. That's hosed up, it's hosed up that I'm weighing these things against real human lives, and it's hosed up that even after thinking about it I can't say I'd want the sport to go to a 6 round maximum even if it would save lives.

I closed out this thread's OP by saying that fans are way too hard on fighters, who literally risk their lives and long-term health for the sake of making a living and entertaining their patrons. Going forward I think fans need to think about Dadashev and Santillan (and many others) the next time we see a referee wave off a fight early, or a fighter quit on their stool. None of us are good people for continuing to watch this sport, the least we can do is be less poo poo toward the people who bleed and die for it.

Marching Powder
Mar 8, 2008



stop the fucking fight, cornerman, your dude is fucking done and is about to be killed.
personally, i have a fascination with fighting. i've been watching fights basically all of my life and pay money to go and get hit by people better than me. i've fought people in sanctioned fights.

according to this article, boxing takes the eleventh spot in a list of sports with most body counts, lagging behind bull fighting, bull riding, jai alai, auto racing, motorcycle racing, skydiving, big wave surfing, loving swimming, cave diving and base jumping. i don't see many fans of swimming having many existential crisis over how many bodies their completely unwatchable sport is racking up. although the bull fighting fans should take a good, long look at themselves.

it is an absolute tragedy when a pro fighter dies. i was moody for weeks when that duke roofus amateur kickboxer died due to gross negligence. but i get it. i strongly believe there are few tests of physical skill, endurance, and a litany of intangibles quite like fighting another equally skilled man in the ring. it is precisely because of what they risk that when i see two fighters leave it all in the ring / cage i'm drat near moved to tears (well, since i turned 30 anyway, for some reason).

life ends tragically for so many people every day. and so many of those people weren't even doing something they liked, or something that brought them a modicum of respect, or was mourned by so many people they'll never even know. it's not good when a fighter loses their life. my heart goes out to their family. and the next time i see two men fight their hearts out - those deaths, in some small way, adds to my admiration for every person, amateur or professional, that feels like i do about fighting and risks it all to experience the agony and ecstasy of being a fedor fan of a fair fight.

i am all for making the sport as safe as we can possibly make it, but i will always want to see the most skillful men on earth have a fight. they risk it all. there's something special about that.

Jump King
Aug 10, 2011

Marching Powder posted:

according to this article, boxing takes the eleventh spot in a list of sports with most body counts, lagging behind bull fighting, bull riding, jai alai, auto racing, motorcycle racing, skydiving, big wave surfing, loving swimming, cave diving and base jumping.

All of those are pretty niche except for swimming, and the evidence they're using for swimming is how many people drown by swimming in general. People drowning while swimming drunk in a lake is not the same as the sport of swimming. That would be like including people who die as a result of streetfights in the boxing or mma totals. That kind of makes me doubt the whole thing, especially when similar sparsely sourced lists show it much higher.

colachute
Mar 15, 2015

It doesn’t shock me that people jumping out of planes produces more deaths than boxing. Boxing being the 11th most dangerous is, to me, just as important as how many people died swimming. One is too many and everyone is tied for first until it’s zero.

GalacticAcid
Apr 8, 2013

NEW YORK VALUES
I see what you're getting at but people die doing all kinds of poo poo. People die walking to the grocery store or driving to funerals.

Sport as an activity and as a spectacle will always be part of a healthy society and there will always some risk involved.

colachute
Mar 15, 2015

GalacticAcid posted:

I see what you're getting at but people die doing all kinds of poo poo. People die walking to the grocery store or driving to funerals.

Sport as an activity and as a spectacle will always be part of a healthy society and there will always some risk involved.

I guess I should be a little more specific. Walking down the street inherently has risks, but the actual act of walking doesn’t. A meteor landing on you is a freak occurrence that you can’t blame on the act of walking.

A boxer dying because of a freak accident, like the ceiling collapsing, would be one thing, but a boxer dying because of the actual act of boxing...

I dunno, it’s hard to justify supporting the sport when I think of it that way. But I also watch F1 and football so I’d be hypocritical if I looked down on anyone for it.

Jack B Nimble
Dec 25, 2007


Soiled Meat
Some people die skydiving, but I don't know that it produces some large underlying foundation of brain trauma of which the deaths are just the peaks.

Edit: Like, they say you can't get a little bit pregnant, but you can drat sure get a little bit punchy, or anything between "headaches" to "dead".

The Ninth Layer
Jun 20, 2007

Yeah it's not just the deaths, it's also the long-term brain damage and health problems incurred by having a career of getting impacted to the head repeatedly for a living.

david carmichael
Oct 28, 2011
Do more people die per yearfrom boxing or from working in an amazon warehouse or an ipod factory or whatever

david carmichael
Oct 28, 2011
Basically are we upset about the exploitation of the disadvantaged for our pointless benefit/entertainment, or are we upset that we let people box for any reason? I think that if there was no money in boxing and it was free to watch and people did it for voluntary fun like softball or rec bball then its fine. Just two consenting adults giving each other brain damage out of love of the game

The Ninth Layer
Jun 20, 2007

For me it's the former, or rather I feel guilty that a sport I genuinely enjoy directly results in the people who entertain me incurring lifelong health problems even if they don't get fatally injured during their career. I don't know how apt the Amazon analogy is because in that case people dying or suffering is an unintended consequence of our collective participating in the economy. In boxing the dying / suffering is the intended consequence because the entertainment value of the sport comes directly from two people trying to hurt each other.

colachute
Mar 15, 2015

david carmichael posted:

Basically are we upset about the exploitation of the disadvantaged for our pointless benefit/entertainment, or are we upset that we let people box for any reason? I think that if there was no money in boxing and it was free to watch and people did it for voluntary fun like softball or rec bball then its fine. Just two consenting adults giving each other brain damage out of love of the game

I don’t think “leave consenting adults to their vices” is a good approach. People are stupid.

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Marching Powder
Mar 8, 2008



stop the fucking fight, cornerman, your dude is fucking done and is about to be killed.
Until we are a formless neural network you will never stop people from fighting. Make it as safe as possible.

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