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Ambivalent
Oct 14, 2006

Visage was a real terror before they nerfed his level 6/rank 1 bird damage, because you could struggle in lane somewhat then hit 6 and just murder like 80% of all heroes in the game. You have to hit a threshold where your damage is just Too Much and people can't stand and fight you. If you just do A Lot Of Damage but they can ever still turn and fight you, you're just real fragile.

the nerfs mean you don't hit that threshold until like rank 2 bird damage or if you're behind, or they have lots of armor, don't hit it at all. god forbid they have easy ways to chew through gravekeeper or just kill bird like bristle or dusa or drow or w/e

that's my experience anyway. the timing is too narrow and your pre-6 laning is just too bad to let you be a 3, and you're just Too Baby to be a 1 imo

idk, I played a lot of visage before like picking him every game I got mid, but him having a high win rate but extremely low pick rate makes sense because every once and awhile they have like... rubick CM supports and like ember mid, and you're able to shred people again


thats my visage thoughts, i love too pick the bound form of necro'lic

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TheRat
Aug 30, 2006

https://twitter.com/EternaLEnVy1991/status/1155974141964505093

rofl

RazzleDazzleHour
Mar 31, 2016


Normally EE is wrong about everything but this is an opinion I hear all the time. High-level dota has all these loving weirdos like Mursglacias/Rodeo/Mio that have text documents full of players that they'll throw the game if they're on the same team, every time. But, dota's punishment system is all automated and hosed and none of them ever get punished, so it's not like League where that poo poo doesn't fly. I especially expect guys like EE are on a LOT of people's shitlists. All the high-rated NA guys sit in each others streams, not to try and streamsnipe, but to get in a game with someone they know isn't going to just go apeshit and throw the game, because it's super common.

It's not because the person thinks they know better than everyone else that a game is over or not, it's because even if someone is just running it down the midlane the game is still gonna take 30 mins to finish, and man running it down mid only gets more and more common the higher you climb

Kild
Apr 24, 2010

RazzleDazzleHour posted:

Normally EE is wrong about everything but this is an opinion I hear all the time. High-level dota has all these loving weirdos like Mursglacias/Rodeo/Mio that have text documents full of players that they'll throw the game if they're on the same team, every time. But, dota's punishment system is all automated and hosed and none of them ever get punished, so it's not like League where that poo poo doesn't fly. I especially expect guys like EE are on a LOT of people's shitlists. All the high-rated NA guys sit in each others streams, not to try and streamsnipe, but to get in a game with someone they know isn't going to just go apeshit and throw the game, because it's super common.

It's not because the person thinks they know better than everyone else that a game is over or not, it's because even if someone is just running it down the midlane the game is still gonna take 30 mins to finish, and man running it down mid only gets more and more common the higher you climb

And you think those guys will vote yes to a forfeit?

Sudden Loud Noise
Feb 18, 2007

I wonder how it would effect stat tracking and account boosting. Those alone aren't good enough reason to not do it, but I'm wondering if it would cause a bunch of smaller issues.

Would a "4 must vote to forfeit" be good enough, or would you have to go all the way down to three to address the issue?

emdash
Oct 19, 2003

and?
Don’t buy envy’s stupid premise. There are fifty factors more important than lack of concede that are “killing the scene”

And anyway in high tier games you are much more likely to get your team to agree to sit in fountain and the other team will actually push and end, which is a novelty unknown to anything below like immortal 500

He didn’t even get a sycophantic reddit repost out of this. Just ignore it

RisqueBarber
Jul 10, 2005

RazzleDazzleHour posted:

Normally EE is wrong about everything but this is an opinion I hear all the time. High-level dota has all these loving weirdos like Mursglacias/Rodeo/Mio that have text documents full of players that they'll throw the game if they're on the same team, every time. But, dota's punishment system is all automated and hosed and none of them ever get punished, so it's not like League where that poo poo doesn't fly. I especially expect guys like EE are on a LOT of people's shitlists. All the high-rated NA guys sit in each others streams, not to try and streamsnipe, but to get in a game with someone they know isn't going to just go apeshit and throw the game, because it's super common.

It's not because the person thinks they know better than everyone else that a game is over or not, it's because even if someone is just running it down the midlane the game is still gonna take 30 mins to finish, and man running it down mid only gets more and more common the higher you climb

bring back the battle net ban list

shades of blue
Sep 27, 2012
Can't you like already press the button to avoid certain players? I know it's not perfect but it's at least something.

RazzleDazzleHour
Mar 31, 2016

Kild posted:

And you think those guys will vote yes to a forfeit?

League only takes 3/5 to forfeit, 4/5 at the 12 minute mark. So, it doesn't matter if one guy refuses

Sampatrick posted:

Can't you like already press the button to avoid certain players? I know it's not perfect but it's at least something.

RisqueBarber posted:

bring back the battle net ban list

Yeah the fact that the avoid player poo poo was added lets you know that this is an actual problem Valve know about.

It's not "ruining the scene" or whatever but to act like there isn't a huge amount of pro players/top1000 players who want a concede option, and that this is not only originally envy's idea but also he's the only advocate is just disingenuous.

e: my own take is that a concede option would only work if you also did some sort of community moderation. League's system works because the game expects you to keep playing if the team votes not to end the game, and they moderate the game really heavily, so if someone throws after a failed concede vote they're gonna get punished for sure. Dota has barely any punishments, as evidenced by the fact it took Rawdota years of constantly account boosting and abusing the turbo behavior score system to finally get banned and he just makes a new account anyways. So now you've got a new problem where you can escape a game with one guy who is already feeding, but now you're gonna be at the gunpoint of a guy who says "concede or I feed"

RazzleDazzleHour fucked around with this message at 18:22 on Jul 30, 2019

Kild
Apr 24, 2010

RazzleDazzleHour posted:

League only takes 3/5 to forfeit, 4/5 at the 12 minute mark. So, it doesn't matter if one guy refuses

Yeah and it was sick in league to surrender then disconnect because then it needed 1 less yes vote but then you still counted as a yes vote so a 2 man could literally hold your team hostage.

RazzleDazzleHour
Mar 31, 2016

Kild posted:

Yeah and it was sick in league to surrender then disconnect because then it needed 1 less yes vote but then you still counted as a yes vote so a 2 man could literally hold your team hostage.

Okay

Kild
Apr 24, 2010


I thought we were sharing league anecdotes

emdash
Oct 19, 2003

and?
You could equally say the fact that it's the avoid player list and not concede lets you know that there are huge problems with concede such that Valve doesn't want to implement it :shrug:

(The avoid player list was added at least as much because people on reddit constantly complained of getting matched with people they just reported)

Xarn
Jun 26, 2015
Sounds like NA dota scene is hot garbage tbh.

emdash
Oct 19, 2003

and?
there's no denying that

One of the anecdotes at Summit was that Azrael (I think) had returned to high level NA pubs. He never speaks or types and plays three heroes in mid only. And the reaction to this was not "oh yeah, I'm going to immediately avoid list him" because he's less insufferable than many others

emdash fucked around with this message at 20:13 on Jul 30, 2019

goatface
Dec 5, 2007

I had a video of that when I was about 6.

I remember it being shit.


Grimey Drawer
Isn't the avoid list really short and when full it just overwrites FIFO? I'm sure that's what someone was complaining about.

emdash
Oct 19, 2003

and?
I think it's 15 slots

Zurreco
Dec 27, 2004

Cutty approves.
Reminder - Bot TI picks up again tomorrow afternoon PST.

schmitty9800
Feb 10, 2003

https://www.rivalry.com/esports/money-alone-wont-fix-the-tier-2-dota-scene

Interesting piece from Reinessa. Lack of consistent money going to T2 teams is the symptom, but the disease is DPC scheduling and qualifiers, not a lack of money.

RazzleDazzleHour
Mar 31, 2016

schmitty9800 posted:

https://www.rivalry.com/esports/money-alone-wont-fix-the-tier-2-dota-scene

Interesting piece from Reinessa. Lack of consistent money going to T2 teams is the symptom, but the disease is DPC scheduling and qualifiers, not a lack of money.

Yeah this is basically just a summary of everything people like PPD have been saying for a while now. NIP play major qualifiers for four days, lose, then immediately have to play minor qualifiers for four days. They get to the minor, play for a full week, win, and then qualify for the major which they have to fly to the next day. Happened to them twice. This has all been talked about a ton this season. Hell, I even posted about the structure already existing for automated weekly tournaments in the Battle Cup just a few weeks ago when the DPC issues last came up

Zurreco
Dec 27, 2004

Cutty approves.

Zurreco posted:

Reminder - Bot TI picks up again tomorrow afternoon PST.

Ends up its starting early. 10am PST

schmitty9800
Feb 10, 2003

RazzleDazzleHour posted:

Yeah this is basically just a summary of everything people like PPD have been saying for a while now. NIP play major qualifiers for four days, lose, then immediately have to play minor qualifiers for four days. They get to the minor, play for a full week, win, and then qualify for the major which they have to fly to the next day. Happened to them twice. This has all been talked about a ton this season. Hell, I even posted about the structure already existing for automated weekly tournaments in the Battle Cup just a few weeks ago when the DPC issues last came up

I really like how she articulated a main issue, that some of the instability is baked into the system because everyone is so desperate to get to TI. If you directly link some sort of weekly league to TI points people will be motivated to play it.

Kortel
Jan 7, 2008

Nothing to see here.
Bot TI going, just a reminder.

sugar free jazz
Mar 5, 2008

Kortel posted:

Bot TI going, just a reminder.

skywrath murdering

emdash
Oct 19, 2003

and?
KOTL looking truly lost in the second and third rounds

IcePhoenix
Sep 18, 2005

Take me to your Shida

Shoutout to Zeus for getting a six kill round

emdash
Oct 19, 2003

and?
Professional brewmaster plays

lol the Veno vs Brood round 2 was so hype

emdash fucked around with this message at 22:14 on Aug 1, 2019

sugar free jazz
Mar 5, 2008

holy poo poo the veno wards lmao


oh my god the ward traps

sugar free jazz fucked around with this message at 22:18 on Aug 1, 2019

Sudden Loud Noise
Feb 18, 2007

Veno wards rule but they still stand no chance against warlock.

ElNarez
Nov 4, 2009
carry venge is back

in bot form

TheRat
Aug 30, 2006

Lmao, who the gently caress thought it was a good idea to do this right before TI?

https://twitter.com/studanal/status/1157261217481842691

Zurreco
Dec 27, 2004

Cutty approves.
RIP Willow, RIP my bracket.

Sab669
Sep 24, 2009

What is the "optional unit query panel"?

Incoherence
May 22, 2004

POYO AND TEAR
That Lich/Enigma match was legendary.

emdash
Oct 19, 2003

and?
Bane hype in Bot TI

drat the hype was snuffed out

emdash fucked around with this message at 20:11 on Aug 2, 2019

IcePhoenix
Sep 18, 2005

Take me to your Shida

emdash posted:

Bane hype in Bot TI

lol

IcePhoenix
Sep 18, 2005

Take me to your Shida

https://clips.twitch.tv/ManlyResourcefulDolphinFUNgineer

OD was that close to advancing

ILL Machina
Mar 25, 2004

:italy: Glory to Italia! :italy:

Ayy!! This text is-a the color of marinara! Ohhhh!! Dat's amore!!

Sab669 posted:

What is the "optional unit query panel"?

IncendiaC
Sep 25, 2011
#justiceforbloodseeker

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goatface
Dec 5, 2007

I had a video of that when I was about 6.

I remember it being shit.


Grimey Drawer
The clutch-est Warlock.

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