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Slayerjerman posted:To be clear, asset or code theft is very much a different issue than working for your competitors and recreating or doing similar work or using your skills and non-confidential knowledge, which is why they would hire you and get you to change companies in the first place. The real issue is leaking proprietary or confidential information and it really doesn't matter very much if that's tomorrow or 2 years down the line after the non-compete expires, you shouldn't share sensitive information regardless. I still hate the ruling from that case. He did prove he didn’t steal code and it didn’t matter.
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Aug 6, 2019 12:54
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Anybody else following the Ooblets debacle the last few days? Holy poo poo it's like the perfect example of how bad things have gotten for game developers in terms of targeted harassment campaigns in the last few years.
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Aug 6, 2019 17:45
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I have had people telling me that the Ooblets response was intentionally designed to get them targeted, threatened, and harassed, and damaged their ultimate profitability, all so that they could...um, benefit...somehow? "they were asking for it", presented literally.
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Aug 6, 2019 17:53
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man, the people in the EGS thread are like perfectly encompassing everything i hate about the internet and how it treats game developers
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Aug 6, 2019 18:02
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The entire anti-Epic circlejerk is humongously ridiculous. Sony, Nintendo and Microsoft have been doing storefront exclusives for literally decades but because the Epic store has a lovely user experience (and it does), that crosses the line into, I don't know, some kind of moral disaster? Like I get that people who wanted Steam keys for Kickstarter projects and are now getting Epic keys instead are pissed. Yeah, great, that's what Kickstarter is like and people have been warning you about it for a long, long time now. This doesn't even break the top list of Kickstarter disappointments and failed deliveries.
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Aug 6, 2019 18:08
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the similarity between the ooblets debacle and gamergate is so uncanny lmao
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Aug 6, 2019 18:16
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Every other person I associate with in games industry/press circles has this fear of "wow, it doesn't matter what I say or do, I could be the next target of a harassment campaign and people will blame me for it." Like 5 years ago it was gamergate, last year it was the arenanet thing, and now it's ooblets. (Not a coincidence that most of the people who have to fear this are from marginalized background.)
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Aug 6, 2019 18:44
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Hyper Crab Tank posted:The entire anti-Epic circlejerk is humongously ridiculous. Sony, Nintendo and Microsoft have been doing storefront exclusives for literally decades but because the Epic store has a lovely user experience (and it does), that crosses the line into, I don't know, some kind of moral disaster? Like I get that people who wanted Steam keys for Kickstarter projects and are now getting Epic keys instead are pissed. Yeah, great, that's what Kickstarter is like and people have been warning you about it for a long, long time now. This doesn't even break the top list of Kickstarter disappointments and failed deliveries. I have no idea what is going on, as I blissfully stay out of gamer social media, but if you promised Steam keys and deliver Epic keys, that's the last time I interact with you as a developer. For me the difference is that it takes the same amount of effort to generate Steam keys as it takes Epic keys (gently caress all), while say if you don't deliver crafting system, the fact that it needs effort can be a good excuse. Also Steam was not recently caught trawling through other launchers data 
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Aug 6, 2019 19:03
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When people take these deals, though, the only(!!) thing Epic asks for in return is times EGS exclusivity so there presumably won't be any Steam keys to generate as they won't be on that store until exclusivity ends.
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Aug 6, 2019 19:11
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Xarn posted:I have no idea what is going on, as I blissfully stay out of gamer social media, but if you promised Steam keys and deliver Epic keys, that's the last time I interact with you as a developer. For me the difference is that it takes the same amount of effort to generate Steam keys as it takes Epic keys (gently caress all), while say if you don't deliver crafting system, the fact that it needs effort can be a good excuse. That's fine (although the reason for exclusivity has nothing to do with the ease of generating keys, of course). By all means I think a refund would be fair to ask for. It doesn't quite cross over into the territory of moral outrage though, or warrant harassment and death threats, no matter how uncouth the developers may have been in announcing the change. My point about Kickstarter is that it is and always has been a quagmire of zero accountability, which has been a standing problem since its inception. It has happened before, it will happen again; so that alone can't adequately explain the outrage this time.
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Aug 6, 2019 19:12
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Xarn posted:Also Steam was not recently caught trawling through other launchers data That didnt happen. Every situation where people had pre-ordered on steam and epic bought the game, refunds have been offered. Epic are offering small time developers lump sums which match their target minimum sold in exchange for a year of exclusivity. Most small time indie developers - and big ones - have just burnt through life savings, remortgaged houses, and still dont know if they're going to be able to pay off debts when the game comes out. Gamers upon seeing a developer choose to not risk total destitution after years developing a game with all the doubt and worries that process carries are getting angry to the point of death threats because now they have to use a different launcher. It's no different to what microsoft did with cuphead, except nobody complained there as having to buy a $400 console to play a game is totally fine, but having to download a new launcher is absolutely not for some reason. cubicle gangster fucked around with this message at 19:17 on Aug 6, 2019 |
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Aug 6, 2019 19:13
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cubicle gangster posted:That didnt happen. Don't forget how many people are retroactively picking over every single word either dev has said in order to portray them as being assholes or something (because that matters in this situation?)
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Aug 6, 2019 19:16
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I worked retail/service since I was 14 and "the customer is always right" attitude was boomer bullshit then and it sure as hell is bullshit now that I work in game development
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Aug 6, 2019 19:19
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Kanine posted:Don't forget how many people are retroactively picking over every single word either dev has said in order to portray them as being assholes or something (because that matters in this situation?) If they hadnt received death threats it would have been perfectly acceptable to say that they were huge idiots about it. I read it as it was happening and it was pretty painful going. What happened should not have happened and they should have been able to say whatever they wanted without bringing this upon them, but unfortunately we're here. It doesnt matter any more in this situation, but a short second before, it did. it's unfortunate that things like this happening (extreme vitriol on the internet in general) totally prevents an objective conversation about how things can/could be handled better. It is all too common these days and causes further extremism from all angles. it immediately changes all potential discussion to 'pick a side, us vs them' and is the exact same thing that has so massively impacted politics in the last 6 years or so. cubicle gangster fucked around with this message at 19:31 on Aug 6, 2019 |
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Aug 6, 2019 19:22
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My biggest surprise with this is that it's still going on. Not even 30-50 hogs could curb EGS chat 
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Aug 6, 2019 19:34
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cubicle gangster posted:That didnt happen. So this https://arstechnica.com/gaming/2019/03/epic-says-its-game-store-is-not-spying-on-you/ did not happen? (I am genuinely asking) Because this sounds like a really loving stupid thing. quote:Vogel does admit, though, that "the launcher makes an encrypted local copy of your localconfig.vdf Steam file" automatically and without explicit user permission. Anyway, yeah, obviously you should not send death threats to developers, and I hate the fact that this is something gamers don't understand, but at the same time, I find it really hard to not sympathize with people who backed a game wanting Steam keys and then being told "suck it, we instead made a deal for $$$ with Epic".
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Aug 6, 2019 19:38
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Rage Gamers are out of order and gross, but plenty of Indies have accepted similar deals and handled it WAAAAY better than the Ooblets people have. Their announcement and subsequent back and forth absolutely made things infinitely worse for themselves and others. Tim Sweeny also escalated the situation for no reason. This particular situation is a quagmire of bad and no one is being healthy about it.
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Aug 6, 2019 19:40
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Xarn posted:I find it really hard to not sympathize with people who backed a game wanting Steam keys and then being told "suck it, we instead made a deal for $$$ with Epic". Nobody ever said the words 'suck it'. This isn't constructive. Do a quick google for epic and spyware. it was all started by a single reddit post by someone who barely understood what was happening. There are many new articles and technical breakdowns since. The launcher makes an encrypted copy of your steam friends list because it has a button to import your steam friends. it's not even remotely a stupid thing. cubicle gangster fucked around with this message at 19:50 on Aug 6, 2019 |
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Aug 6, 2019 19:46
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Does anybody feel like there's a massive divide between the average gamer and game developers. Like it doesn't make sense to me, game development is more accessible now than ever (you can see this with the explosion of indie releases.) But It seems like the average person I see posting in SA/reddit/twitter (outside very specific spheres) seems to have a really weird and inaccurate views of game development and the realities of it?
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Aug 6, 2019 19:47
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Kanine posted:Does anybody feel like there's a massive divide between the average gamer and game developers. Like it doesn't make sense to me, game development is more accessible now than ever (you can see this with the explosion of indie releases.) But It seems like the average person I see posting in SA/reddit/twitter (outside very specific spheres) seems to have a really weird and inaccurate views of game development and the realities of it? That's because game jams and casual game development are not at all similar to a full game release with marketing, publishers, etc. and the expectation to make money.
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Aug 6, 2019 19:55
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cubicle gangster posted:Do a quick google for epic and spyware. it was all started by a single reddit post by someone who barely understood what was happening. There are many new articles and technical breakdowns since. You do not get to copy files from a different program before given explicit permission by a user, this is software etiquette 101.  Incidentally a variation of this is also enforced by GDPR. If you do anything with tracking cookies before the user explicitly consents, then you are in the wrong even if the user then consents to everything.
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Aug 6, 2019 19:57
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mutata posted:Rage Gamers are out of order and gross, but plenty of Indies have accepted similar deals and handled it WAAAAY better than the Ooblets people have. Their announcement and subsequent back and forth absolutely made things infinitely worse for themselves and others. Tim Sweeny also escalated the situation for no reason. There's not real parity between what the devs or Sweeney did and what Gamers Rising Up are doing to them, though. Speaking of which, just to be sure folks are aware of this: Dehry posted:The list of everyone sent media credentials for E3 (game industry expo) was found to be hosted on a public site over this past weekend. It had full names, addresses, and phone numbers of everyone registered. The larger companies had people use their business address, but there's a shitload of bloggers and streamers who used their home address. Fortunately my friend had moved since E3 but his phone was getting all sorts of calls over the weekend.
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Aug 6, 2019 20:10
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Studio posted:That's because game jams and casual game development are not at all similar to a full game release with marketing, publishers, etc. and the expectation to make money. I'm gonna say something that's going to sound like heresy to a lot of gamers: Publishers and marketing departments are, in fact, good! Most of the time they want the game to come out just as badly as we (the development/production department) do! They're not just a necessary evil or something cliché like that, they're a vital part of what makes the whole thing work out. Without them we're not selling games, and if we're not selling games we're not making more games. People seem to have a huge boner for blaming everything that is perceived as bad about a game on publisher interference, but most publishers have very little impact on a game's design at all. What's more, they're a huge source of stability for us developers. Money as an independent developer can be real tight and you have to spend a lot of it upfront without ever knowing if the game is even going to recoup the investment, let alone make a profit. Hyper Crab Tank fucked around with this message at 20:32 on Aug 6, 2019 |
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Aug 6, 2019 20:12
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actually come to think of i think gamers not understanding how game development works is really just a particularly egregious example of a larger phenomenon of how creators are devalued in society (it's just noticeable because of how massive and visible games are now) like i think the mentality of a rando on twitter armchairing at a programmer going "just implement this -incredibly complex thing- its so easy and you're just lazy" isnt all that different from the stuff you see graphic designers/photographers/etc. dealing with that's well documented on sites like clientsfromhell
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Aug 6, 2019 20:19
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Xarn posted:You do not get to copy files from a different program before given explicit permission by a user, this is software etiquette 101. And Epic fessed up it was a quickly done, early prototype implementation that shouldn't have shipped. The EGS launcher is indeed a pile of hacks with shoddy UI. But calling what that quick implementation does "spying" is a disingenuous leap of logic, and the fact that it gets trotted out repeatedly despite multiple technical breakdowns disproving it is just a testament to how impossible it is to reason with the anti-EGS crowd.
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Aug 6, 2019 20:38
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Kanine posted:creators are devalued in society Uh. Cleaners would like a word with you.
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Aug 6, 2019 20:39
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Discendo Vox posted:There's not real parity between what the devs or Sweeney did and what Gamers Rising Up are doing to them, though. You're right, and just to be clear, I never claimed (nor will I ever claim) there was parity. I only said that the way they handled things actively made the response worse and has made the entire Toxic Gamer Tribalism situation worse. Edit: If a year from now I'm reading an article all about how in retrospect this was the right way to go about it, then I'll happily eat crow, though. mutata fucked around with this message at 22:16 on Aug 6, 2019 |
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Aug 6, 2019 22:12
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Kanine posted:Does anybody feel like there's a massive divide between the average gamer and game developers. Like it doesn't make sense to me, game development is more accessible now than ever (you can see this with the explosion of indie releases.) But It seems like the average person I see posting in SA/reddit/twitter (outside very specific spheres) seems to have a really weird and inaccurate views of game development and the realities of it? Knowing how the sausage is made does not in fact make you relate more to the sausage. It either means you'll find out the creators of the sausage are poo poo, the consumers of the sausage are poo poo, or the whole process of making the sausage is utter poo poo and you've been complicit in it this whole time, congratulations you've been living a lie, the magic is gone, everything is horrifying capitalism. Specially in an industry that lives entirely on creating make-believe fantasies supposedly fueled by "passion" and the only thing keeping that illusion alive is all the smoke-and-mirrors.
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Aug 6, 2019 22:22
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mutata posted:You're right, and just to be clear, I never claimed (nor will I ever claim) there was parity. I only said that the way they handled things actively made the response worse and has made the entire Toxic Gamer Tribalism situation worse. Sorry, I'm hypersensitive to it because so much oxygen is spent on the right way for the devs to speak, versus really digging into the preexisting, root cause Toxic Gamer Tribalism.
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Aug 6, 2019 22:44
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Discendo Vox posted:Sorry, I'm hypersensitive to it because so much oxygen is spent on the right way for the devs to speak, versus really digging into the preexisting, root cause Toxic Gamer Tribalism. 
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Aug 6, 2019 22:45
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Jan posted:And Epic fessed up it was a quickly done, early prototype implementation that shouldn't have shipped. The EGS launcher is indeed a pile of hacks with shoddy UI. Accidental spying is still spying. Also,  of course it's the customers fault for not listening to multiple technical explanations as to why spying isn't spyingTo be more clear, if people react emotionally to this, coming at them with pure logic will just make you look like you're defending Epic. This situation is like someone catching their neighbor in their apartment after he accidentally fell through the window, and then suddenly Defendor, Lord of Logic breaks through their wall to explain to them that calling the police isn't necessary. Well yeah poo poo it isn't, but this approach still won't work.
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Aug 6, 2019 22:48
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Discendo Vox posted:Sorry, I'm hypersensitive to it because so much oxygen is spent on the right way for the devs to speak, versus really digging into the preexisting, root cause Toxic Gamer Tribalism. That's fair. Personally, that's a big takeaway for me because that's a thing I can actually control and apply to my life. It's obviously a really gross state and affects lots of innocent people. That said, I see a strata of folks in enraged group. Some are hornets looking to sting and further cement for themselves a gross, wrong, and dangerous worldview that makes them feel powerful. Others, though, are merely customers who don't understand the practical reasons for making such a move and why they're being inconvenienced. Some are literally just Steam fanboys who are loyal to a brand. There are others, obviously. I have a couple reasons for bringing up the behavior of the devs in particular. One, I can expect and rely on this behavior from the hornets in the group. They will always be there doing this for the foreseeable future and I don't have much to say other than gently caress that poo poo forever and ever. Two, I think it is super important to this overall situation to not convert more people into the hornets group. Coming out swinging at your own customers communicates pretty clearly that you consider them an enemy first. At the very best, it is perceived as some kind of posturing challanege or attack and these people will naturally feel slighted and they will naturally seek out others who feel the same and, yeah, the Gaters will happily welcome them into their ranks. Once they feel a shared experience with that group I believe they will be much more susceptible to other things they have to say. So I don't advocate good PR for the sake of the assholes who are going to be toxic no matter what. gently caress them. I do have concerns that coming out swinging like this makes things worse in the short-, medium-, and long-term. As good as it feels to post poo poo like the Ooblets guy did and like Sweeny did, in my opinion, it only ever makes things worse. It's counterproductive. It's toxic in its own right and it plays so very easily into the toxic story lines.
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Aug 6, 2019 22:59
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what's your suggestion on what to do specifically in this situation when you're targeted
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Aug 6, 2019 23:15
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That depends on what you're being targeted for, but in the instance of an indie studio cutting the EGS deal, I know companies in the past have had success with (A) Clearly explaining why they're making the deal, including the financial reasons, survival reasons, "the end result will be a better game than without this funding", etc. Basically telling the truth. (B) Trying their best to do right by previous statements (re Patreon or Steam preorders or Kickstarter rewards, etc) or barring that, at least specifically acknowledging them. (C) State the updated current plan for production and release reiterating platform, dates, and pricing (if applicable). (D) Ignore the vocal minority and move on as there's nothing more to say about it. Personally, I've also been interested in finding some PR training or training materials. If ever I decided to strike out with an indie project, I think I would find some kind of professional training in that regard before running into a situation like this. Like I said, it depends on why you're being targeted by the Assholes, though. If you're just out on Twitter saying opinions like everyone else and the Eye of Sauron shifts its gaze to you randomly, then I don't know what to do about that other than going dark is certainly an option. If you're running a business online, though, it's my opinion that you DEFINITELY need policies and plans for PR and social media, whether you're an individual running a single-person project or if you're a company. I think that's just the reality of the current landscape. An indie dev can still have a personal, personable public face and cultivate that online following that's so important while still adhering to plans and policies. From what I've observed, winging it is dangerous. mutata fucked around with this message at 23:46 on Aug 6, 2019 |
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Aug 6, 2019 23:28
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Libluini posted:Accidental spying is still spying. They didn't spy, they grabbed a file in preparation for you to be able to add the users to your friends' list. Yes, they should have waited until the user asked but they didn't do anything with it. These mistakes happen all the time if you think poo poo like this isn't happening in every single piece of software/service you use you're wrong. The only reason we know/care is because people wanted to dislike something about the EGS.
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Aug 6, 2019 23:43
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Discendo Vox posted:Sorry, I'm hypersensitive to it because so much oxygen is spent on the right way for the devs to speak, versus really digging into the preexisting, root cause Toxic Gamer Tribalism. This does indeed suck, but it's also the reality of being a public facing person (assigned or not) for anything ever. It's a stupid game we all have to play at least sometimes and it's insane that a slip can result in something blowing up, but playing the PR game is just part of it the deal. I think I've been through PR training of some kind thrice at this point. Kanine posted:what's your suggestion on what to do specifically in this situation when you're targeted So, if it's Re: EGS, Mutata is 100% correct, but if you want a case study, take a look at the Coffee Stain's Response. Some quick tips to be gleaned from this video in particular: 1. Don't antagonize your audience. Ooblets did this and it was a huge mistake and it's a big reason why these guys are getting some much vitriol when Coffee Stain got a disliked video and some angry posts on reddit for a few days. 2. Sympathize with your audience. Try to understand why they are mad and even if you don't address the issue, offering authentic understanding can win you some understanding in return. 3. Be upfront about your motivations. If you are goes to EGS because it provides security for the studio, then say that up front. 3.1 Talk about your game and the people, not about the company. It's easy to sympathize with developers. It's hard to sympathize with companies. to that end, don't cooperate-speak that poo poo - just say, 'We needed money to pay people so we can finish a game. Epic wrote a check.' You'll get a much better response vs, 'In looking at our financial velocity, the company's' fiscal future looks a lot more secure when...' 4. Seriously, don't antagonize your audience. It's just a license to go for the throat. At the end of the day, it's not like CS didn't get some hate, but what they did is they handled the situation without giving people any ammo to do anything with, so that hate just died super quickly. If you start calling your audience 'entitled' or 'brats', whether it's true or not, they have a lot more to use as fuel than just a blog post saying, 'we're moving to EGS - here's why'. Canine Blues Arooo fucked around with this message at 02:35 on Aug 7, 2019 |
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Aug 7, 2019 02:27
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See, I am from a communication background and in my eyes the devs did most of that 90% right. Their initial response, while it had some snark (matching the tone of all their other releases, which is appropriate), it was indeed upfront about their motivations and rationale, using person-centered language. The challenge is that the respondents, the hornets you mention, aren't good faith interlocutors. General PR rules and practices aren't really able to handle the people who are only involved because they're looking for a soft target to stab, who are actively spreading false information across multiple media. Gamer Culture is uniquely horrific in how often this abuse mob manifests itself, and the degree of bad faith involved. Food or oil execs don't have people doxxing them or falsifying social media posts from them, even if their companies are hated. It's closer, I fear, to mutata's Eye of Sauron situation, where if a critical mass of the core of psychos decides you're vulnerable, there is literally nothing you can do. And let me be clear; I do think the main reason the Ooblets devs are being targeted is not because they did anything wrong, PR-wise or with regard to Epic, but simply because they are vulnerable. People at Valve and Epic, or even the larger game teams, don't usually get this level of targeted, clearly malicious abuse. If this is because they have PR and social people, then bear in mind that means many full-time dedicated staff- it's a colossal expense only a handful of the largest companies can use. I studied and will likely soon be working in a comms-adjacent positon in a sector that has some of the same problems, though there are significantly different market factors. My observation is that very few companies even begin to have the resources to theoretically respond to this situation once it begins. The usual tactics that big companies use in bad press situations involve three general methods, often used in combination: 1. Indeed, going dark is the main tactic; some companies suspend communications almost entirely until the media cycle passes. This is less of an option for products with strict launch dates and massively diminishing sales curves. Besides, the mob remembers the company and people with a fervency that's uncommon in other areas. I can say a software developer's name ("Double Fine", e.g.), and all the past slights and outrages resurface almost immediately. 2. Hiring crisis communicators and trying to disrupt mediated narratives - "getting our story out there", in their euphemistic language. This is very, very resource intensive and not effective in this situation where so much of the information is going through places like the chans. 3. Writing off and/or completely rebranding the product sequence, to redeploy down the line. Again, not really an option with games- the social media connections to individual devs are too direct, the companies are too resource-poor, and the market churn is far too high. All of these are reactive, and they only serve to limit harm, not prevent it. As far as I can tell the only real preventative solution in gaming is to be very big, very socially separated from users, and to never let any staff member give any inkling of weakness that the mob might seize upon. I'm aware of how unfair and unrealistic and horrible this is, which is why I keep circling around to the other side of the equation. I think the solution has to lie there. Discendo Vox fucked around with this message at 03:08 on Aug 7, 2019 |
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Aug 7, 2019 02:56
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Canine Blues Arooo posted:So, if it's Re: EGS, Mutata is 100% correct, but if you want a case study, take a look at the Coffee Stain's Response. Some quick tips to be gleaned from this video in particular: Wow, I had not seen that before but yeah that looks perfect.
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Aug 7, 2019 03:32
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quote:As far as I can tell the only real preventative solution in gaming is to be very big, very socially separated from users, and to never let any staff member give any inkling of weakness that the mob might seize upon. This is probably good general advice, but there are strong examples of developers having a close relationship with the general community and reaping some pretty wonderful benefits from that. The token example I can think of is Chris Wilson and Path of Exile - he's a regular presence on the subreddit and often to deliver bad news, but he has the continued respect of the community. A lot of this is because he doesn't bullshit - I cannot tell you how valuable being an authentic person to your audience is, yet it's something studios fail at so much. Another success story might be Jeff with Overwatch. When he talks to the community, he sounds like he's interested in his game. He stutters or misses a word here or there. He looks and sounds like a human being and he's relatable. Beyond that, he's talking about specific things, and talking about exactly what he's excited about in specific terms, giving specific examples to support his story that existing players can associate with, and potential players can imagine. Just as importantly, the entire video is given a more authentic feel through the editing, because there is no editing. Compare that to something like this. It has the same casual tone, but the fact that it's edited gives it a super inauthentic feel - it's hard to know if the casual tone itself is just scripted, and since the average gamer on reddit is incredibly jaded, they assume the worst and it leaves the viewer disconnected from any personality or humanity on the team. Worse than the Destiny 2 dev update is one of the Anthem Interviews. Everyone in this is dressed way to nicely and it just immediately alienates potential interested gamer right out of the gate. Everything being talked about is very abstract, very carefully planned, and specifics are left out entirely. The conversation is informal on the surface, but the controlled environment that is their language seeps through and again, it wrecks the guise (already in shambles anyway). The end result is that despite Casey being a smart and charismatic dude, he appears more like a corporate mouth than someone you want to have a beer with. Worse than all of that is when a developer is literally reading off a prepared script. Everyone knows you are doing it and you will win exactly zero points with the community by doing that. Don't read a script if relatability is at all important to you. But getting back to the core of the conversation: If you want to see someone do all the right things on reddit no less, look no further than Chris. It's an absolute masterclass in how to be a positive member of your game community even when the chips are down, and it really can be boiled down into two things: 'Be excited, but don't over promise', and 'Be a human'. Canine Blues Arooo fucked around with this message at 05:00 on Aug 7, 2019 |
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Aug 7, 2019 04:43
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Edit: You know what, nevermind! I already said my thing up above. I was just (probably obnoxiously) restating things.
mutata fucked around with this message at 05:16 on Aug 7, 2019 |
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Aug 7, 2019 05:09
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