Kerro posted:

I'd really recommend reading anything Janet Lansbury has written, she has a great website and I think offers a really clear, coherent perspective on what our goal should be as parents, and what we can practically do to achieve that. So much of it simply comes down to not invalidating our children's experience - that even when there is a clash of wills, or where we have to overrule what they might want, we can do it calmly and with an acknowledgement of the feelings they have about it. So much is implicitly communicated when we do this - that we see them, and that our love for them is not dependent on them doing the right things or feeling a particular way, that we can care about them and listen to them even when we are in conflict.

From what you describe specifically, freezing in response to aggression very much is a defense mechanism - it signals a rise in anxiety which triggers the fight/flight (leaving before it gets worse)/freeze system. The function of anxiety (when it's operating correctly) is to warn us of a threat, and I'm guessing that for you historically having that anxiety response would have served an important survival function to help you manage a very real threat. Unfortunately of course as an independent adult and a parent yourself it stops being so useful, as it's now responding to triggers that don't in reality carry the threat that aggression once would have done (having your kids or partner get angry vs having an abusive parent get angry when we're too young or to caught in the pattern to defend ourselves).

If you're able to access therapy, that's the sort of thing that it can be very helpful in addressing. Probably the majority of the patients I work with are in one way or another seeking help because they developed systems of anxiety or attachment patterns that were necessary as children (either because they were crucial to cope, or simply because their parents didn't allow them to function in any other way) but which are devastating when they are still operating as adults.

Regarding your last point - while it can certainly be helpful to learn ways to defuse things when you clash, it's not the only important thing. Just as important is being able to reconnect afterwards - being able to apologise, reflect together on what went wrong, and express care and compassion for each other can go an enormous way to repairing any harm cause by conflict or rupture to the relationship. If anything, it's a crucial part of modelling that people can get angry at each other and have disagreement and conflict, and that it doesn't change the love that they have for each other - that anger and love are not mutually exclusive. Part of the harm caused by narcissistic parents is the unwillingness to take responsibility, acknowledge fault and apologise, particularly when the children are younger. As younger kids we implicitly assume that the way our parents are treating us is correct and for our own good, and so by default if they never acknowledge fault, our default assumption becomes that there was something wrong with us, that we were to blame. We can then easily go into life believing that 'the way they made me feel must be the right way for me to feel', and end up recreating that same experience, or feeling anxiety about anything that clashes with that experience (e.g. feeling happy, proud of ourselves etc). So sure, focus on developing better ways to manage conflict, but equally focus on learning to repair and reconnect (including taking responsibility and apologising) when things go wrong.

LoudPipesSaveLives posted:

For the other thing, I have thought about therapy but for the most part it doesn't stop me from living my life and has helped make me a person who is opposed to violence and aggression especially towards women. That doesn't mean I embrace my anxiety around those things it but I do realise it has some positives along with the negatives.

Kerro posted:

At the same time, how do you know that's not just the anxiety taking credit for something that's actually just part of who you are as a person? 🙂

Kerro posted:

So much of it simply comes down to not invalidating our children's experience...

meat no potatoes posted:

p.s. I registered an account because of this thread, and all of the replies in this thread, and all of the links in this thread. The link to the superman/clark kent philosophytube helped me a lot, as did the movie suggestion of Ordinary People.
Thank you all for each and every post.

Admiralty Flag posted:

Can you repost the tube link you referenced above?

mllaneza posted:

"That never happened."

That's mom's response to literally anything I bring up as her having damaged our relationship. She doesn't even have the courtesy to pretend to think about it, it's an instant response. If I press I get "If I don't remember it, it never happened."

The poor woman has no idea why she doesn't see me as often as she wants.

teen witch posted:

Oh no stronger than murder, like I want this woman to disappear on a subatomic level.

quote:

WIBTA if I don’t get my daughter in law Taco Bell for her birthday as she requested and instead got a traditional cake for the treat?
u/Kilotonhun
My daughter i law and I have a spotty relationship at best. I feel I work hard to get along, she accuses me of interfering with her kids and family (if buying her kids school supplies are a bad thing...then I’m guilty).

So basically my son called me and said that Cassie would like to bury the hatchet this year and actually invited me to the birthday party. I asked if I could bring anything. He said if would be a big help if I stopped and got a Taco Bell party pack on the way over since Cassie wants Taco Bell instead of a cake and they don’t have one within 30 minutes of their house. I asked why Taco Bell and he said that Cassie is back on her “caveman diet” and Taco Bell is a treat but not like a sugar implosion like a cake. I said I’d think about it. He asked me to please not make an issue of this and please just get Taco Bell. I told him I just can’t see depriving a party of a birthday cake. He said if I can’t just bring the Taco Bell, please let him know and he’d handle it.

The issue is, I’m disgusted with the way she feeds her family. The kids have zero fun when it comes to food and they are what I would consider brainwashed. Oh the rare occasion Cassie let’s me watch the kids, they will have one chocolate milk and arent interested in kids foods like cookies and fruit roll ups.

I feel like I would be giving into the nonsense if I bring Taco Bell and not a birthday cake. I make an amazing traditional chocolate cake and I feel it would make the other guests not think Cassie is so odd. And it will quickly be overlooked and I get to make my statement in a quiet and dignified manner and maybe even subtly nudge her in the direction of allowing her kids a normal childhood than that would be a good thing.

Before I start baking, is this a wrong thing that I’m thinking of doing ?

Edited to add: using a throwaway since this doesn’t need to bleed into my discussions oh my city’s subreddit.

teen witch posted:

Crossposting from the r/relationships thread but HOO WEE, one in the loving wild

Count the warning signs everyone!


The comments, Duke, the comments

Peanut Butter posted:

"Kids foods", Jesus loving Christ

Scipiotik posted:

This one hits home. My father, who is the OG bad person in my family who I think just poisoned my mom through his persistent negativity and anger, does not believe in allergies. This is despite me nearly dying multiple times from my allergies (grass gone to seed then cut used to send me into anaphylactic shock before I got treatment). He then resented me for not being able to cut the grass, as even after treatment I wasn't really able to do so without breathing problems. I had a cousin with a peanut allergy, and he used to suggest constantly that we test it out and see if he was actually allergic. This was made worse by having the elder sister of one of my classmates die from her peanut allergy. Now my nieces both have numerous allergies, luckily he took such terrible care of his health that he is not really any danger to other people (except possibly falling on them). This is on top of him being a Fox News white supremacist.

quote:

Dear Carolyn:

My oldest son has informed me he is finished with family gatherings "like a circus" and only wants to visit my husband and me in the future. The "circus" consists of his two brothers, their wives and one granddaughter. The excuse is that he and his wife have traveled 200 miles to see us and are too tired to participate in family get-togethers, such as at Christmas.

He refused a Father's Day invitation, issued to everyone. His youngest brother and very pregnant wife gave up seeing my husband on the actual day, to accommodate the traveling son's desired date one month later.

I suspect the real reason for this is my granddaughter and now a coming baby. My oldest son's wife learned she cannot have children after great medical trials, after which she was devastated. In the past she has complained about us through my son, so this sounds like a rerun. She once told him she never wanted to see us again, but changed -- why I don't know -- and now is willing to come here. We are never invited to their home, that excuse being the apartment is too small.

She was an only child and is selfish at times, and self-centered, making many nonmedical dietary demands and acting as she pleases when here. The acting out has been fine with me, I accommodate every wish, but to cut my son off from his brothers and their children is too much. I realize he is colluding with her and also responsible, but what should we as parents say and do? How can we keep our family gatherings together?

-- At a Loss

It's "too much," meaning ... what -- you're not going to stand for it? And if so, what does that not-standing-for-it look like: Do you shun her and your son from now on? Do you send someone to seize them and deliver them to your holiday table?

I'm not saying this to be facetious. This is obviously a painful and regrettable development in an already challenging family history. But one of the least productive ways to act on hard feelings is to make grand pronouncements that can't reasonably be put to use.

In this case, my guess is this isn't "too much," really, because you'll deal with it; what choice do you have? It's just a particularly tough development to absorb because it's a shot to the heart of what matters to you.

I also think it's an excellent opportunity to look at it as the latest point in a sequence of tensions, and treat the whole tension this time -- not just the issue at hand.

From where I sit, I don't just see a brokenhearted family matriarch(asterisk)(asterisk); I also see judgy language in your letter, both overt and subtle. There's "only child and is selfish at times" -- have you ever said that one to an only's face? They're all suspect in your eyes?

And there's your reference to "many nonmedical dietary demands," which could describe ... let's see, Kosher; vegetarian/veganism; thinking X is so gross that it gives you dry heaves when you try to swallow it; and having the genetic quirk that makes cilantro taste like soap. Among others, right? Things we tend to be gracious about with people we like, and eye-rolly with people we don't?

And, you've used "excuse" twice to describe their reasoning, "explanation" zero times, and "reason" once in blowing past a "devastat[ing]" experience with infertility to get to a complaint about her complaints. Wow.

You don't like her. I get it. Maybe she has earned every fine grain of your loathing. But if your opinion of her works its way into every line here, how much of it do you think you're keeping from her?

Right. So, that's where you get to work: Patch this up. Go back to all of the negative judgments you've made of your daughter-in-law where there was room for doubt, all of them, and think of ways to give her the benefit of that doubt now. Think of it as a forced recalibration toward sympathy where you've reflexively seen her as a threat.

Then, adopt that new view. Be sympathetic to an only child who maybe needed time to adapt to big-family noise, or still needs breaks from it. Be sympathetic to someone who is sensitive to some foods and isn't sure how to say that without being a jerk.

Be sympathetic to a woman who right now is dying inside around small children, and just wants some room to recover without having her request received like it's the end of someone else's world.

Again -- maybe some of this sympathy won't feel warranted. Maybe it's not.

But you're not going to get your big happy circus back by demanding it in anger.

If you're going to get it back -- it's an "if," of course, unfortunately -- then it will be through compassion, patience, flexibility, humility and love. Dig as deeply for these as you must.

Veni Vidi Ameche! posted:

Did you ever tell her why? I'm picturing you saying, "I told you why I never come over," and her replying, "That never happened."

quote:

Hi, I am a mother of 2 boys and married. The oldest one is 22 years old and we have been estranged for under 6 months. It has been over 4 years that our relationship has been erroding but in the last 6 months we have not seen our son or grandson. It really started when he meet our grandson’s mother. Trust me when I say, I so wanted a daughter in law. I was raised with 3 brothers and I myself have two boys. I tried so hard to please her, be kind, generous and supportive. But it soon became evident that she would outright lie and twist things that would happen. At first I blamed myself and thought I need to try harder. It caused fights between my husband and myself because he could see they were just using me and truth be told I was allowing them to take advantage of me. I was so scared of losing my son. It finally took a therapist and the reality I was losing my self and husband and other son because I was so absorbed in the constant drama and lies. I spent many days so confused and or believing I was a failure. I was so glad to have found “Done with the Crying” and this online support group. Since my boys were young I would periodically throughout their years say “what are the most important things in life”. They would chant like some kind of cult “love, God, family and friends”. I would giggle and say that is right. I am extremely close with my own 3 brothers and their families and cutting family off is just so foreign in our family. My son has admitted to me in the past that is partner is controlling and abusive. I have tried talking to him about the patterns and cycles but to no avail. Since he has cut us off we have tried to reach out but his partner(and now him) have just twisted reality and outright lie.He has become as sick as she is and that makes us so sad. I am a social worker by profession and understand the cycle of abuse but I still find it still so unreal. It is like I am living a nightmare. Physically it is my son but I don’t recognize the person he has become. Where did my loving, bright blue eyed boy go? I am a spiritual person and I am trying to have faith that things happen for a reason. It might not be about my journey. I am slowly trying to get better and let go…..anyway, this is a long introduction…thanks for listening.

quote:

Interesting article for sure. I've tried not to be intrusive in my kids' lives. I have helped them financially but that will never happen again. The money was not a gift and I made sure to tell her I mortgaged my house for that money - close to $5k. Promises are cheap aren't they. Calling I don't do anymore since one told me - on Mother's Day - I don't have time to talk to you anymore. I don't want your gifts which prove to me near every time that she doesn't even know me. I got size 8 slippers one year. I wear a 6. Obviously recycled since that's my daughter's size.

I dunno what's going on with familial relationships anymore. I see the same things as I'm going thru happening to friends my age. My Mom didn't want me as I was unexpected and she made sure to tell me that all my life. Three months before she passed she told me to go find my real Mother. So we had our differences. Still - her birthday, Mother's Day, Christmas, she got a call from me. Actually, we spoke almost every day. I haven't heard either one of my daughter's voices in years. Not even a text. There's something wrong with that picture. I was their sole support pretty much all their lives. If that's what's normal now, I'm glad I'm old.

quote:

I agree with you totally. You know what I think? I think the writer is writing the article from her point of view to her parents. Perhaps, these are the things her parents do that piss her off. Just another article to try to make parents feel worse.

I’M ANGRY AT AARP FOR EVEN PUBLISHING IT!

quote:

This is getting long, so let me close with what I see as the main problem with the article this father shared: It covertly makes the point that it is okay to hate your parents. From the title (“Avoid Mistakes That Could Make Your Kids Hate You”) on, the warning is that if parents make these mistakes, their children will hate them. HATE them. I see far too much of this in our society these days. Kind, caring parents who aren’t all that horrible yet are considered “toxic,” and worthy of hate.

trickybiscuits posted:

AARP: Avoid Mistakes That Could Make Your Kids Hate You: Don't push your children away with these annoying habits

Yaldabaoth posted:

You know how rats will eat their own offspring if environmental pressures become too great? Boomers are the same way.

quote:

My naturopath finally figure out what was going on in my body. She did heavy metals testing. Turns out I had enormous quantities of lead in my system. Off the chart. I still have no idea where I acquired it, but now that it is being removed, I feel much better. There are still some health challenges along the way, but over all, I feel better. Whether it is “eye of newt and toe of frog, wool of bat and tongue of dog”, if it helps, I’m in. Conventional medicine has let me down enough that I had to search elsewhere. Here’s where the “what if’s” start though. What if I had been healthier when the ES crisis occurred–would I have handled it better?

quote:

"My parents have told me repeatedly that they don't believe in divorce,” says Mariana Olenko, 52, of New York City. “Even though I'm divorced — and a divorce lawyer."

Caramaline posted:

As a matter of fact, killing your children rarely, if ever, was punished.

Caramaline posted:

As a matter of fact, killing your children rarely, if ever, was punished.

quote:

Hi all,

I’m up to the goal-setting exercise in Done With The Crying.

This one was hard for me at first. Should I make a goal of sometimes contacting my ES, as I do nothing now? But I think not – his silence is his answer and expresses what he wants – nothing.

As I was reading through the examples, I came upon something that fit. Cleaning. Cleaning out his stuff – maybe in small steps, once a week. Cleaning out old toys and holdovers from the days of having young kids. Just paying attention to our space so that it reflects our lives now and has room for us to be and express ourselves as we are now.

It feels like this is what I need to move on, too, as well as the writing and working I’m doing.

What have your experiences been with clearing out the old stuff – or what other goals have you set that were helpful?

quote:

I think it was actually one of the best things to do. To help with closure over the situation. When i was informed that I was considered a child abuser and could no longer spend time with my gks without supervision, I went home and put all pictures and toys in the one room I had decorated for them and covered them with a sheet.

My husband asked if he could box them up and put them up in the attic, but I declined. This is something I would do when ready.

Something clicked the day I reached out for support from my mom and sister and I received silence. They just didnt care that my oldest ES told me to stay away after not contacting him for several months and then dropping of a letter. I just went, I dont know, cold. I think that was my turning point. I then packed up what I could, gave some nice toys and toddler stuff to my boss for her new gs, but a few things in memory boxes and then gave the rest to charity.

The room I so lovingly decorated has nothing on the walls. Now just a spare room.

I have started going thru our big box of pictures and will keep a few from when my sons were little, other than that I dont want them around.

I taken down all pics from my side of the family and replaced them with pictures of us on our vacations and knickknacks.

You would not be able to tell we are grandparents….that is very sad, but what I have to get used to.

Life goes on. This is the only life I have….I am tired wasting it on people who dont care. When I get old I want to look back and say, even though I went through some really tough times…I lived a good, fun, fulfilling life.

Hugs from the farm

quote:

Let’s face it, we were all good moms and our kids had good, maybe not perfect, but good childhoods. I know mine did. But for some reason they grow up and move out and find people who they think had better childhoods.

My ES and I had a disagreement about the free speech. He thinks if someone is saying something he doesn’t like or agree with, they should be silenced. I believe in free speech for all. You may not like or agree with what is being said but it is a constitutional right.

Well after that altercation I received the you are a Nazi for not agreeing with me and I love u, but here are the 5,6,10 things that you did that were a disappointment!!! I mean ARE YOU KIDDING ME!!! Of course it was nicely written, but you can put lipstick on a pig and it is still a pig. When I took offense to these things I did so wrong, my other son said the letter was very well written. Seriously?? He listed stuff that was hurtful and actually, pretty stupid. Who does this??? Who writes a letter to their mother to tell them the things or decisions she did that they didn’t like??? I have a few I could tell my mother, but would never do that….I would never do that to anyone in my family, but apparently my other family members are fine with it. REALLY

I and we have all made the best decision we could at the time and if they are not good enough than too bad for them. I am done second guessing myself over this.

We have alll done the best we could…….

quote:

wkgmom – I want to know how you can raise a child and teach them to respect and be respectful to everyone. NO matter the color of their skin, religious beliefs, sexual orientation….just respect everybody….yes they walk in to your home and TOTALLY disrespect the people who have respected them and helped them the most. I remember by ES saying that he doesn’t respect other peoples opinions……I just stared at him, wondering who this kid was and who raised him? My father in law told me after the estrangement that he was indoctrinated into his beliefs in college and helped along by his girlfriend. I really don’t care. I believe your mother is your mother. You may not have the same beliefs as me, but I deserve respect. I say this all the time to myself when I think about this situation and now starting to go thru it with my oldest son. I cant take the I am better than you, entitlement attitude that my eldest is showing me. I help get him where he is today, for crying out loud, show some RESPECT…AAAAAAAHHHHHHHH
I am reaching the point of walking away…….it is the hardest decision I will every make

MasBrillante posted:

teen witch posted:

As she loving dramatically lies on the chaise with the back of her hand to her forehead, spotlighting her goddamn sorrow.

Also, has anyone checked out the reviews for MacGregor’s book?

https://www.amazon.com/Done-Crying-Healing-Estranged-Children/dp/0997352205

MasBrillante posted:

So it seems McGregor put that poo poo about trashing your offspring’s childhood belongings in her abuser handbook, framed as “making space for yourself.”

Which is hilarious because the original complaint for many of these people’s children is that they took up literally all the space.

THOT PATROL posted:

from a thread about the various homeopathic, alternative, etc “medicine” that the lovely moms are into:

MasBrillante posted:

An older post from “the farm”



You just know what he actually said was “some opinions are not worth respecting,” but as in all things, they hear what they want to hear.

BrigadierSensible posted:

I think the thing is that they never throw away any of their estranged kids stuff, or clean out the room etc. is because they need that poo poo as a reminder that they are a parent, and were a good parent. "Look, there's little Timmy's train set, and star wars pajamas." (Little Timmy is 35 and has moved across the country with his new wife.)

The other thing is that when a normal parent clears stuff from their kids that no longer live at home's room, they now have a SPARE room, to do with as they please. When I first moved out, my mum turned my bedroom into a sewing room. But to these crazy parents, when they are forced to clean out their estranged kids stuff, they are left with an EMPTY room. A room that reminds them of the empty hole in their lives which was once filled with their idealized rose tinted memories of their kids.

So they either never do it/resist doing it for decades, or do it out of spite. "Ha ha take that little Timmy, I have taken down the blue teddy bear wallpaper from your room and given your train set to charity! Aren't you suffering now!" (Little Timmy is 35, living with his wife and daughter on the other side of the country and never liked the train set in the first place.)

Saint Drogo posted:

more evidence that boomers are just a cancerous byproduct of weed prohibition.

trickybiscuits posted:

Issendai's blog has a great discussion of this poster and it's like a case study of just HOW MUCH these parents aren't sharing online. This poster
says just a little bit more than most and so is easier to read into. http://issendai.com/wp/estrangement/the-slow-build-getting-details-one-drip-at-a-time/

It's also a huge red flag when a grandparent decorates a room in their house for a grandchild.

The empty room doesn't just remind them of their idealized rose-tinted memories but also of the expectations they had for the relationship which their malfunctioning adult children are so cruelly not allowing them to have. It's a reminder that they want something that their children are "supposed to" give it to them but they don't get to have it. And this is unbearable and they don't have the internal resources to deal with it. But then to this poster, seeing the room she put together for her grandchildren reminds her that she doesn't get to have her grandchildren on her own terms. God, it's such a mess.

quote:

Now [my oldest son says] we are violent ( because the day of the estrangement as my es was in my face, I reached up and slapped him before going in the house)

quote:

and my oldest son will not allow my husband to see his grandson or attend grandparents day at his school. The baby shower for my next grandbaby is the weekend. Waiting for the call telling me not to attend and not sure if I even want to go

Now that is the issue. Mind you my ES at the time he did all this was 27. But that is all anyone focuses on…..You hit ES. Always what we “did” to him. Not one person in my family stood up for us…NOT ONE PERSON!!!!

MasBrillante posted:

An older post from “the farm”



You just know what he actually said was “some opinions are not worth respecting,” but as in all things, they hear what they want to hear.