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Gynovore posted:It's hard to imagine him getting worship or dedication without belief. (Then again, that same panel says Hel is getting too much devotion and no worship, so i dunno.) I believe that the way the soul bargain works, she gets Devotion whenever a dwarf dies and is consigned to her, even if they didn't worship her in life. If they die honourably, the god they followed in life gets the Devotion.
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Aug 20, 2019 21:55
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Gynovore posted:It's hard to imagine him getting worship or dedication without belief. (Then again, that same panel says Hel is getting too much devotion and no worship, so i dunno.) It's not "too much" dedication (and in fact it's kind of implied that she's lacking in souls going to her too, since dwarven society is so "honorable" that most die in ways that send them to other gods, and with no one actively worshiping her she isn't getting any from the normal way either), it's that she has no worship at all. Thor compares it to "empty calories" because it's incomplete, lacking something she needs and all.
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Aug 20, 2019 22:06
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reignonyourparade posted:They believed magic was for fools and simpletons. I took that to be a reference to ES's Nords, so that along with the world of anthro-refreshments and other experiments was Tamriel.
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Aug 20, 2019 22:37
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Yeah, "sorcerers are dipshits" has been an incredibly common belief in OotSverse since the beginning. That it actually has a story impact is actually pretty cool.
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Aug 20, 2019 22:45
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Could Loki/Thor actually call off the wager, or is it woven into the fabric of the world, god-rules-sorry-can't-do-poo poo? I kinda think Loki looks like he wants to just throw it away. I suppose he could leave her the new High Priest at the Godsmoot to replenish from and keep her alive. If vampires are capable of generating Worship, I guess.
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Aug 21, 2019 02:15
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Yeah I think Loki is realizing that the wager has left Hel with basically no choice but to go for broke, if just getting angry like this wears her out, she certainly doesn't have enough god power to last through the time between worlds. And she doesn't honestly believe that the Good Guys can win this and defeat the Snarl, so she's trying to get maximum power so she can ride out the wave. The power is just a nice bonus.
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Aug 21, 2019 02:18
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I was just wondering if Hel built up a big enough following of vampire dwarves, could that chill her the gently caress out? Or do undead dwarves' worship not count? Of course, there's no real guarantee that she'll be fine after the wager was over or that she was that much better before it happened. Maybe Loki pulled that trick on her because she was an rear end in a top hat to begin with.
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Aug 21, 2019 02:29
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Loki breaking the chain of bad dads by realizing that he have truly hosed Hel over and that her plan wasn’t so much an act of Evil as it was an act of desperation.
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Aug 21, 2019 02:29
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Isn't it kinda late in the game for yet another powerful evil force to show up and swear to destroy the world?
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Aug 21, 2019 02:43
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MonsterEnvy posted:Magic the gathering made that mistake once. It's actually the same word: the animal is named after a Latin word for spirit or ghost. I guess the people who named them thought their big eyes were spooky.
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Aug 21, 2019 03:16
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SlothfulCobra posted:I was just wondering if Hel built up a big enough following of vampire dwarves, could that chill her the gently caress out? Or do undead dwarves' worship not count? I checked; in D&D a cleric who becomes a vampire can still be a cleric if his alignment and deity don't change. Since worship is the defining trait of a cleric, I'm guessing that worship from a vampire is real.
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Aug 21, 2019 03:52
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Yeah, the revelation that Hel is actually dying from this, not "just" malnutritioned, to use Thor's metaphor, but outright in danger of disappearing, recontextualizes a lot of her behavior. No wonder she's so angry, sometimes irrational, and in denial about a lot of things; she's on the brink of her existence just failing and is probably aware of it, so her mind isn't all there and when it is there she probably has to deal with (im)mortal terror and dread. Add in the apparent social isolation and the seething anger she has, and, well, yeah. No wonder she went for it. And there's apparently no solution to it that doesn't involve the end of the world, the loss of the Dark One's quiddity, and the continuing of the cycle. So unless the bet ends and/or Hel gets a lot of worshipers despite, well, everything up to now and the reputation she has with mortals, she's probably doomed. And Loki has to deal with the fact that it's his fault, and that his daughter is going to die hating him for it.
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Aug 21, 2019 03:59
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She didn't say that lack of worship is killing her, that's mostly conjecture. She is weak, but that may just be a nonterminal case of god-scurvy that could be curable if she doesn't squander that last She was talking about doing her best to starve Loki of all the food groups, dedication, worship, and physically erasing any record of him to believe in.
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Aug 21, 2019 04:19
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Roland Jones posted:Yeah, the revelation that Hel is actually dying from this, not "just" malnutritioned, to use Thor's metaphor, but outright in danger of disappearing, recontextualizes a lot of her behavior. Yeah seriously. Let's look at it... many hundreds if not thousands of years ago (but during this world, not a previous one) Hel made an agreement to trade her regular source of souls for the souls of not-honorable dwarves. But then, Thor told the dwarves about the arrangement, thus changing dwarven culture to a super-honorable one, so Hel gets nothing. If gods actually need souls to survive, then Thor's plan will kill her, and Hel's machinations with the vampires are a desperate play to stay alive. Still, it may not be quite that desperate. We know that if the Snarl eats a world, all the souls are forever lost. Since this has happened before, that means the gods are capable of skipping a meal or two.
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Aug 21, 2019 04:23
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Roland Jones posted:Yeah, the revelation that Hel is actually dying from this, not "just" malnutritioned, to use Thor's metaphor, but outright in danger of disappearing, recontextualizes a lot of her behavior. No wonder she's so angry, sometimes irrational, and in denial about a lot of things; she's on the brink of her existence just failing and is probably aware of it, so her mind isn't all there and when it is there she probably has to deal with (im)mortal terror and dread. Add in the apparent social isolation and the seething anger she has, and, well, yeah. No wonder she went for it. Realtalk if she told the dwarves about this those lawful good bastards would probably start self sacrificing just to do her a good turn! They're just the worst!
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Aug 21, 2019 04:44
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SlothfulCobra posted:Maybe Loki pulled that trick on her because she was an rear end in a top hat to begin with. He pulled it cause he was an rear end in a top hat to begin with. Still is.
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Aug 21, 2019 05:06
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Gynovore posted:
On those worlds the gods had been filling up the entire lifetime of the world, they just didn't get a big meal at the end. She's been malnutritioned from the start (after probably coming into the world hungry from the wait from the last)
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Aug 21, 2019 05:15
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MikeJF posted:On those worlds the gods had been filling up the entire lifetime of the world, they just didn't get a big meal at the end. She's been malnutritioned from the start (after probably coming into the world hungry from the wait from the last) All the souls in that world that had already passed, would eventually merge back into that plane/diety . There is enough time between worlds for people to work out all their issues and become one with the plane of their alignment.
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Aug 21, 2019 05:41
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Gynovore posted:Yeah seriously. Let's look at it... many hundreds if not thousands of years ago (but during this world, not a previous one) Hel made an agreement to trade her regular source of souls for the souls of not-honorable dwarves. But then, Thor told the dwarves about the arrangement, thus changing dwarven culture to a super-honorable one, so Hel gets nothing. If gods actually need souls to survive, then Thor's plan will kill her, and Hel's machinations with the vampires are a desperate play to stay alive. She still gets souls. She's explicitly mad because she's not getting as many as before, but it's not like literally every dwarf dies honourably. That's why there were cases for Thor and Loki to contest to distract her.
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Aug 21, 2019 06:10
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It could also be that since this world is kind of implied to have lasted an abnormally longer amount of time than most of the previous ones, she’s basically been having to stretch out the few crumbs she’s been getting off of the table for way longer than she’s ever had to before. She probably made the wager assuming that they’d only get a couple centuries at most out of this one, but it’s been around for, what, a few thousand years by now? She’d likely constantly be feeling like she’s about to die of starvation.
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Aug 21, 2019 06:35
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ultrafilter posted:He pulled it cause he was an rear end in a top hat to begin with. Still is. He pulled it to heal Odin's brain faster. As Odin is one of the principle gods of the Dwarves, screwing Hel out of her share of them means many more go to Odin, bringing him back sooner, rather than later.
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Aug 21, 2019 06:36
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reignonyourparade posted:They slightly seem to but from THAT VERY PAGE it seems like odin wasn't getting any worship OR dedication last cycle and that specifically is the problem. jng2058 posted:He pulled it to heal Odin's brain faster. As Odin is one of the principle gods of the Dwarves, screwing Hel out of her share of them means many more go to Odin, bringing him back sooner, rather than later. Okay, so Hel got screwed over in this world in order to redirect her souls to Odin and fix him. And Odin needed to be fixed because he got screwed over in the last world, by the fact that Northerners distrusted magic and didn't really use it. But why did Odin agree to set the world up like that when they were building that last world? He's the leader of an entire pantheon, it seems strange that he wouldn't be able to get basic safeguards built into the world's design to protect himself. I think Odin must be working some longer con here. For some reason, he had to deliberately give up power and/or get stupid in the last world, in order to set something up in this world. Did he know the purple quiddity would arise, or did he somehow cause it? Or maybe it's connected to the world inside the Snarl, which he seems to know about. Whatever it is, it's a nice parallel to his small-scale manipulation of getting Durkon exiled in order to get him into the afterlife to talk with Thor.
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Aug 21, 2019 07:19
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The last world's barbarians becoming anti-magic might not have been intentional; it's not like the gods control everything that happens in the world. They set the stage and all and can sometimes provide direction, but otherwise once things are in motion they tend to stay hands-off. He's definitely up to something/knows more than he appears to this time though. I compared him to a Malkavian earlier in the thread and I still think that's pretty accurate.
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Aug 21, 2019 08:19
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Regalingualius posted:It could also be that since this world is kind of implied to have lasted an abnormally longer amount of time than most of the previous ones, she’s basically been having to stretch out the few crumbs she’s been getting off of the table for way longer than she’s ever had to before. She probably made the wager assuming that they’d only get a couple centuries at most out of this one, but it’s been around for, what, a few thousand years by now? She’d likely constantly be feeling like she’s about to die of starvation. I went back and reread that bit and Thor says that 'Stickworld' has lasted the longest so far to the point if they stop the Snarl, the gods might give that natural selection thing a try. Since Hel's only been getting Belief and probably some Dedication, it's still not the same as a god getting all four spiritual groups. While we don't know how she was faring in the last world, she's been running on a deficit throughout this one. jng2058 posted:He pulled it to heal Odin's brain faster. As Odin is one of the principle gods of the Dwarves, screwing Hel out of her share of them means many more go to Odin, bringing him back sooner, rather than later. I'm not sure screwing Hel out of souls was for helping Odin. Thor says the Belief coming in is helping Odin's mind heal and he defined that as mortals knowing the gods exist in their specific identities. The last world might've only seen Odin as Allfather rather than also being a deity of wisdom and magic which would also mess with his head. That Stickworld's been around so long, the lengthier inflow of Belief's enough that Odin should be fine in a few centuries. Ponsonby Britt posted:
Malkavian smarts is probably the best explanation. While Odin did take a severe mental hit from the last world, it doesn't change he's still a wisdom deity so it would fit that while he comes across like Captain Fang from Yet Another Fantasy Gamer Comic, there is an underlying wisdom to what he's saying even if it makes no sense to us at this time.
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Aug 21, 2019 10:08
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Ponsonby Britt posted:I think Odin must be working some longer con here. For some reason, he had to deliberately give up power and/or get stupid in the last world, in order to set something up in this world. Did he know the purple quiddity would arise, or did he somehow cause it? Or maybe it's connected to the world inside the Snarl, which he seems to know about. Whatever it is, it's a nice parallel to his small-scale manipulation of getting Durkon exiled in order to get him into the afterlife to talk with Thor. This is possible, but I think that if Odin is going to be a major plot point he would have been given more screen time.
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Aug 21, 2019 17:22
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Gynovore posted:This is possible, but I think that if Odin is going to be a major plot point he would have been given more screen time. He probably has had as many panels as any other god besides Thor. Too lazy to actually count though
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Aug 21, 2019 18:24
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Gynovore posted:This is possible, but I think that if Odin is going to be a major plot point he would have been given more screen time. He's had quite a lot of screen time so far. More than Hel, Loki or any of the non-Norse pantheon. But he's mostly just been used to foreshadow stuff in the form of jokes.
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Aug 21, 2019 18:27
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My thoughts and feelings about Hel's potential demise are summed up by the speech that Haley gave the Crystal Golem before giving her the Terminator treatment.
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Aug 21, 2019 18:49
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Ephemeron posted:My thoughts and feelings about Hel's potential demise are summed up by the speech that Haley gave the Crystal Golem before giving her the Terminator treatment. Link?
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Aug 21, 2019 19:21
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Raenir Salazar posted:Link? I'm too
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Aug 21, 2019 19:48
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Raenir Salazar posted:Link? Behold http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0981.html
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Aug 22, 2019 00:23
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Ephemeron posted:My thoughts and feelings about Hel's potential demise are summed up by the speech that Haley gave the Crystal Golem before giving her the Terminator treatment.
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Aug 22, 2019 00:26
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Gynovore posted:I'm too I mean on the other hand I'm not sure if that applies to a god. Because in theory you always need a god of the dead; and perhaps Hel can have something of a change of Heart and become something like Kelemvor. Perhaps after the passing of countless eons and even death has died, there is no more need, but that day is not now.
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Aug 22, 2019 01:52
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Gynovore posted:I'm too Stuff like that gets real weird when you deal with gods and the souls of the dead and such. Her plan, while miserable for the dwarfs, is actually the less dangerous one for the mortals as a whole.
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Aug 22, 2019 03:18
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So Thor said that creation needs multiple god-energies to be stable, and specifically that more god-energies means more stability. He specifically identified mortals as a part of creation that follows that rule. I wonder if that made the four-color mortals of World One like Numenoreans to all subsequent worlds' mere Men.
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Aug 22, 2019 04:29
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SuperKlaus posted:So Thor said that creation needs multiple god-energies to be stable, and specifically that more god-energies means more stability. He specifically identified mortals as a part of creation that follows that rule. I wonder if that made the four-color mortals of World One like Numenoreans to all subsequent worlds' mere Men. Wait. Is this maybe what the Monster in the Dark is?
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Aug 22, 2019 10:26
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Whybird posted:Wait. Is this maybe what the Monster in the Dark is? I don't think it can be that since Burlew specifically stated that the Monster isn't something he made up himself.
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Aug 22, 2019 10:34
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SuperKlaus posted:So Thor said that creation needs multiple god-energies to be stable, and specifically that more god-energies means more stability. He specifically identified mortals as a part of creation that follows that rule. I wonder if that made the four-color mortals of World One like Numenoreans to all subsequent worlds' mere Men. That's actually a really cool thought. Weren't that what Elans were in like 3.5e? Ancient Precursor Elves? I think Forgotten Realms actually introduced precursor races along with Primordials.
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Aug 22, 2019 13:48
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Elan is a human bard, not an elf. 
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Aug 22, 2019 14:02
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There is a race called Elan but here we go; I was thinking of these: LeShay.
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Aug 22, 2019 14:52
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