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The REAL Goobusters posted:The Chinese community is in complete full meltdown mode over LGD’s loss lmao goddamn Chinese teams dont seem to understand how to play high level dota, or at least run at you dota, as well as the western teams. Every chinese team comp and strategy seems kinda the same. they should git gud imo
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Aug 26, 2019 20:34
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Really seemed like LGD's biggest weakness was in the drafting, they got outdrafted by both Liquid and OG. Like previously mentioned, having a team that has world class players is obviously important, but being flexible with picks and roles, and having a captain and team capable of adapting in game was the real key to winning this year. Like Infamous looked totally unstoppable when they were in their comfort zone, but once Secret banned out their comfort heroes or got them to the late game, Secret handled them. The LGD-Liquid games were kinda similar, Liquid was able to draft circles around LGD because they were drafting very conservatively and weren't able to threaten a surprise strat or pick that could jam up the enemy draft. Same thing happened with VG too, something like that 9th pick carry Io headfake that Puppey pulled on them was a great move that I don't feel like LDG or VG were able/willing to make. OG played stellar, but they also were so flexible with their picks that I'm not sure you could really outdraft them, closest was maybe G1 of the finals with the Meepo pick.
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Aug 26, 2019 20:39
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Andrast posted:I'm seriously thinking of going to TI next year since it's so close I'm seriously considering it as well, and if I manage to rope an IRL friend or two to come with me, I'll prolly go.
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Aug 26, 2019 20:43
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I really wish they would bring Purge back in and have him do some actual analysis beyond their 1 minute sound clips. Weatherman was a nice segment and allowed things that might have been overlooked to shine, but I really do miss the Newcomer Stream. I've been watching TI since the first one and probably only started to understand things around 3/4, it's a really tough game to look at and understand. To be fair, I never played dota 1 and flunked out of learning 2, but I had played LoL pretty religiously for a while so I knew "MoBA" things, but Dota 2 is just a huge beast. So yeah, please someone bring Purge back in to run a stream explaining things. I know he's liable to get off on a tangent.... but he's so good at explaining and finding nuance where only an experienced observer can. I almost wish (selfishly) he just sat at home and restreamed TI with commentary, or did a video series after the fact, or something. Anything to help explain all these amazing technical things we see on our screens.
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Aug 26, 2019 20:48
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The way they used Purge was a bit weird, they had him there but then just had him sit in a corner and give very small amounts of info. Maybe they had a bigger plan for him initially, but it got cut for whatever reason, but too late to really figure out anything else for Purge to do?
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Aug 26, 2019 20:51
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Purge said in the lategame that he really misses the Weatherman segment because it let him focus on moments and decisions that people would normally miss but had a high impact on the game. Also I keep seeing the Visa thing brought up and it was never about that. It hasn't been in Seattle the last two years (or next year) because Key Arena has been under renovation and still will be next year as well. China just made sense to them because the Chinese scene is so huge and they deserved a TI (and probably ruined their chance to get another one for the next decade or so).
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Aug 26, 2019 20:54
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I gather that the problem with the Newcomer Stream is that they couldn't figure out whether it was "this TI is the only Dota you've ever watched" or "this game/series is the only Dota game you've ever watched". The latter is probably more useful, especially because people will show up for the grand final who didn't show up earlier in the event, but it gets very repetitive for the casters to re-explain the basics.
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Aug 26, 2019 20:54
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SpiritOfLenin posted:The way they used Purge was a bit weird, they had him there but then just had him sit in a corner and give very small amounts of info. Maybe they had a bigger plan for him initially, but it got cut for whatever reason, but too late to really figure out anything else for Purge to do? 
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Aug 26, 2019 20:56
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Reality Sinner posted:Chinese teams dont seem to understand how to play high level dota, or at least run at you dota, as well as the western teams. Every chinese team comp and strategy seems kinda the same. Yeah that’s why no Chinese teams were successful at all this year. Yeah I’m kidding vici won 2 loving majors and lgd made it to winners finals, the top of their group and finished third. Chinese teams are good at dota.
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Aug 26, 2019 20:56
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Anyway I’m gonna go to TI next year for loving sure so if you wanna holla at your boy let me know
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Aug 26, 2019 20:58
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Every team has a way of thinking about dota. n0tail himself has talked about this in interviews, even going so far as to say that a big motivator for winning is to prove that your ideas about how the game should be played are the best. OG's "concept of dota" or the "OG meta" is the best right now. There will be a lot more attempts to figure out OG dota now that they've proven their success is reproducible For a point of comparison, I'll use EG because their philosophy has been in the open for a couple years. They want to win the lanes hard, then plant themselves where the other team would want to farm and starve them out until it's time to go highground (this is why artour getting cliffed happens so much. The cliffs are in the enemy jungle). Sounds great! But they almost never draft any gamebreaking synergies, or tempo lineups, or whatever else. So they've gotten pretty predictable and the results have been predictably poor. I'm not sure how to pithily summarize OG's concept of the game (they haven't been as open about it as EG. Probably smart!) but they love item timings and big synergies. They want drafts where it doesn't matter if you lose 2/3 lanes because you're going to hit a monster power spike or your Mag/carry combo is going to bring you back into it. They want to fight near their buildings so they can abuse you with buybacks. Anyway, I guess all of this is to say they're not winning by some chemistry magic, even though chemistry is super important. Every team has to play by the rules of dota; OG just has by far the best ideas about how to use/abuse those rules right now Sorry for the long post 
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Aug 26, 2019 20:58
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That's actually really nice commentary, speaking as someone who barely understands anything about the game. Why can't commentators talk like that (I was literally following this thread while watching replays because the commentary in here is, somehow, way more insightful than the actual commentators)
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Aug 26, 2019 21:00
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silvergoose posted:That's actually really nice commentary, speaking as someone who barely understands anything about the game. its a lot easier to sound smart when you are typing minutes or hours or days after the fact than when you are live on camera
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Aug 26, 2019 21:03
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violent sex idiot posted:its a lot easier to sound smart when you are typing minutes or hours or days after the fact than when you are live on camera Yeah but they're being paid to sound smart, and also other people are getting paid to give them information to help.
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Aug 26, 2019 21:04
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theres like, maybe 3 people at the entire event who are paid to sound smart. everyone else is there to spout memes. its an entertainment product
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Aug 26, 2019 21:06
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Incoherence posted:I gather that the problem with the Newcomer Stream is that they couldn't figure out whether it was "this TI is the only Dota you've ever watched" or "this game/series is the only Dota game you've ever watched". The latter is probably more useful, especially because people will show up for the grand final who didn't show up earlier in the event, but it gets very repetitive for the casters to re-explain the basics. I was thinking about this during groups, I think the best approach would be to have a series of standalone 'what is dota' videos you can refer people to so they can get the basics which gets the casters out of having to explain it every single time, then in the newbie streams focus on explaining the heroes that have been picked, what their abilities are, how they are played in the lineup etc. This would hopefully give a better idea of what is going on in each game for the viewer, as well as reducing the repetition for the caster, as you rarely get exactly the same matchups every game even if the same heroes are being picked frequently.
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Aug 26, 2019 21:17
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https://gamerzclass.com/collections/academy/products/dota-2-gameplay-analysis-12-55 you have to put in your email but this site made this educational video by n0tail free since they won TI9. It's not the greatest (too short) but if you're interested in some pos5 thought processes, it might expose something for you https://twitter.com/compLexity/status/1166059494218096640?s=20 zfreek officially out of COL actually they released their whole roster as well emdash fucked around with this message at 21:47 on Aug 26, 2019 |
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Aug 26, 2019 21:25
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I hope zfreek finally gets a good team around him but it might be too late. I didn't see much from col this year was he still really good? e: oh I just opened the game and saw I got a ton of points for fantasy and then saw this when checking how close I was to top 100 (I was way off)  Neat! Didn't think I'd be that high. IcePhoenix fucked around with this message at 22:15 on Aug 26, 2019 |
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Aug 26, 2019 22:13
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emdash posted:Every team has a way of thinking about dota. n0tail himself has talked about this in interviews, even going so far as to say that a big motivator for winning is to prove that your ideas about how the game should be played are the best. OG's "concept of dota" or the "OG meta" is the best right now. There will be a lot more attempts to figure out OG dota now that they've proven their success is reproducible At least talk of 'timings' has become common lingo in very high skill dota these days. It used to be 'early push', 'stall to late game' and the occasional 'lvl 1 rosh', but these days it's more of '15 minutes' versus '20 minutes' versus '25 minutes' as the timing where a team decides to 5 man deathball and win the game. Because once you deathball, the only way to combat it (with ratting nerfed to poo poo) is to deathball yourself, and if they just hit some synergy then you're going to have a bad time. OG played a 12-minute deathball strategy this TI while everyone else was building Midas naix snoozefests. Weren't they the team picking spirit breaker that nobody else was? That hero is the ultimate 'gently caress you enemy cores, farming is now over'. Every TI has pretty much been about what team found the imba-meta for the patch. Wings gaming being the most extreme example, Alliance ratting another. But as many have said-- the teams who do well focus on their draft defining their own metagame. And if you just play to counter the other team, you end up with EG boring lane-phase winning, deathball collapsing line-ups. It really is about teamwork and synergy, more than last-hit mechanics of old, and it's nice seeing players like Puppey, Kuroky, and N0tail who have always played this way to be rewarded for it. Even when they stomp, I enjoy watching that kind of stomp.
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Aug 26, 2019 22:22
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I'd say OG's playstyle is 1) identifying which items and levels they need to be stronger than the enemy team 2) making sure they get those as soon as possible while putting huge pressure on the opposing team to prevent them from farming 3) once they feel they're stronger than the enemy team, they never stop running at you Whereas most other teams focus more on outfarming their opponents and getting map control. I.e. some teams will be hapy controlling the map for a long time if they have the impression that they're gaining more gold than the opposing team, they'll farm every camp while forcing the enemy to stay near their base/towers and take little risk (EG and LGD especially). Whereas OG, once they feel they're stronger, will just keep going for kills and objectives with very little focus on farming.
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Aug 26, 2019 22:27
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Every game OG won felt like they were staying even for 12-20 minutes with Topson and Jerax going all over the map being wild and then it would turn out they'd only been playing 4v5 this whole time and then ana would join in and it'd be over.
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Aug 26, 2019 22:54
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IcePhoenix posted:I hope zfreek finally gets a good team around him but it might be too late. I didn't see much from col this year was he still really good? I thought fantasy was really cool, but sucked because of timezone sadness and the fact that tomorrow's games are largely predicated by today's. I missed probably 3 or 4 days of fantasy just because I couldn't be added to theorycraft my fantasy roster each morning before work.
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Aug 26, 2019 22:59
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EthanSteele posted:Every game OG won felt like they were staying even for 12-20 minutes with Topson and Jerax going all over the map being wild and then it would turn out they'd only been playing 4v5 this whole time and then ana would join in and it'd be over. It helps that Topson is far and away the best mid, since he's willing to throw his game away to make space for Ana. But the problem is that Topson is go good at rotations and ganks he's never far behind. He's just so unselfish with his play. He's never trying to win his lane or focus on his own farm, instead he's 100% committed to his team winning and it shows.
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Aug 26, 2019 23:01
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Jerk McJerkface posted:It helps that Topson is far and away the best mid, since he's willing to throw his game away to make space for Ana. But the problem is that Topson is go good at rotations and ganks he's never far behind. It's a really hard role to play too because everyone watching is like 'this guy sucks, getting carried by ana' even though when he's dying he's usually doing it for a reason and I don't think a lot of mid players could handle the lack of individual glory that entails
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Aug 26, 2019 23:09
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Two years ago when I started watching DOTA I found that far more important than the newcomer stream tips (although only being aware of what half the hero skills did it did help) was the decision I made to spend each game focusing on only one hero/player whenever they were on screen to the expense of all else, until I felt I understood what it was they were doing and could see what they wanted to do next. That's my advice for anyone trying to start watching - don't try and watch the whole game at first because a 5v5 teamfight will just be incomprehensible chaos. Try to understand one player's part in the puzzle, then move on to another player and so on.
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Aug 26, 2019 23:10
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The REAL Goobusters posted:Yeah that’s why no Chinese teams were successful at all this year. Can't remember the season. I know one major win was against vp so lmao At TI, their drafts felt all the same. 1 scaling carry, 2 scaling tempo guy, 3 fat stun man, 4-5 non scaling non roaming whatever's. They'd do okay in lane, sometimes get ahead, but often take too long to push, letting the other team get back in the game. The aggressive teams, OG, liquid, secret, would get ahead and just take your base. Chinese teams never seemed to push their advantage like the top western teams could. It's not a talent issue, Maybe and Paparazi are studs, fy is fy-god and lanm is the GOAT. But strategically they play the same way they have since dota 2 started. The west has figured out timings, China's timings feel about 10 minutes too slow.
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Aug 26, 2019 23:10
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silvergoose posted:Yeah but they're being paid to sound smart, and also other people are getting paid to give them information to help. Most of the commentators are really bad at DotA and understanding DotA. It's the price you pay for having the kind of energy/personality to be a commentator. And sadly, the few that do understand the game well(Blitz and Purge being good examples)are sidelined for no good reason. Then you get into casters and while they try to have a hype/analyst combo, the hype guys usually never let up enough space for the analysts to be informative. Imo part of the problem is there's a) not enough new talent and b) too much reverence for the old guard. Like, please stop inviting Tobi. Dude still calls out the wrong ability names.
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Aug 26, 2019 23:27
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Kyle and BSJ are both much better and knowledgeable at DotA then either Purge or Blitz. The only real weirdness/lack is that Winter wasn't at this TI.
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Aug 26, 2019 23:35
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Sampatrick posted:Kyle and BSJ are both much better and knowledgeable at DotA then either Purge or Blitz. The only real weirdness/lack is that Winter wasn't at this TI. I had to look those up because I couldn't match names to faces. And I genuinely thought they were basically on par with Grant. Which is to say, flip flopping between knowledgeable and stupid.
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Aug 26, 2019 23:38
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I like watching Purge, but he doesn't have the right energy and is actually pretty full tbqh. I like his streams, analysis, even give him my bezos bucks a lot of months, but he's not exactly high energy. Also, he has problems getting words in edge wise sometimes.
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Aug 26, 2019 23:38
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Nasgate posted:
Not if the new talent is someone like Trent. The dude literally said post-game that jerax didn't contribute when he played pugna. I don't expect top-tier analysis but I would hope they actually watch the game, come on. Even Tobi isn't that bad. He's a weird creep but he does good play-by-play and works well with synd who is a great analysis caster.
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Aug 26, 2019 23:39
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DisgracelandUSA posted:I like watching Purge, but he doesn't have the right energy and is actually pretty full tbqh. I like his streams, analysis, even give him my bezos bucks a lot of months, but he's not exactly high energy. I don't necessarily see that as a bad thing, especially for a newbie stream. Frankly I dislike a lot of the shout-casting of so many liked castors though. DisgracelandUSA posted:Also, he has problems getting words in edge wise sometimes. Yea he tried to speak like 3 times after the final game and kept getting interrupted, I felt sad for him 
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Aug 26, 2019 23:40
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Y'all honestly overrate Purge's analysis by a ton
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Aug 26, 2019 23:43
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https://twitter.com/EternaLEnVy1991/status/1166115510578270208 What does it mean Oh he deleted it was just some letters like 'e e I o u' that I assume was a new team
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Aug 26, 2019 23:49
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Of every analyst at TI, the only one Purge is better than is Nahaz
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Aug 26, 2019 23:49
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Nasgate posted:I had to look those up because I couldn't match names to faces. And I genuinely thought they were basically on par with Grant. Which is to say, flip flopping between knowledgeable and stupid. ok its way less than that but kyle has multiple ti appearances as a player
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Aug 26, 2019 23:50
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Vando posted:It's a really hard role to play too because everyone watching is like 'this guy sucks, getting carried by ana' even though when he's dying he's usually doing it for a reason and I don't think a lot of mid players could handle the lack of individual glory that entails Yeah! And then there's the thing where like Jerax as Tiny did perfect bodyblocks to stop the mid from going anywhere while Topson gave him the Pugna kiss and it was just such good play that you gotta kinda just wanna GG out right there.
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Aug 26, 2019 23:50
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Bsj is real bad at dota but good at streaming. He speaks with confidence but I never hear anyone saying the same poo poo he says, so i assume it's all bs.
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Aug 26, 2019 23:52
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Nasgate posted:Most of the commentators are really bad at DotA and understanding DotA. It's the price you pay for having the kind of energy/personality to be a commentator. And sadly, the few that do understand the game well(Blitz and Purge being good examples)are sidelined for no good reason. what? Blitz is a notorious storm spammer who only ever learned the game in that impression. Purge is just an encyclopedia, not someone who ever understood top tier dota. Tobi+Synderen was easily the best duo this year, if not every year.
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Aug 26, 2019 23:53
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Synderen talks about dotaplus win percentage too much
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Aug 26, 2019 23:54
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