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"I played this last game, I've got the rhythms down now" is a pretty good justification.
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Aug 27, 2019 23:09
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The REAL Goobusters posted:23 savage on fnatic is like a huge upgrade lol Now they just need a super aggressive offlaner to complete the most SEA DotA lineup in the history of SEA DotA
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Aug 27, 2019 23:54
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How soon do you think we can get an openai/og gaming showmatch?
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Aug 28, 2019 01:01
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Seems like there would be a clear conflict of interests between Jerax and the AI team
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Aug 28, 2019 01:21
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Didn't the OpenAI team retire from Dota? Really disappointing too since OpenAI was one of my favorite Dota-related developments, I had hoped that if it ever became completely competent (use all heroes/items) that it could be used to balance Dota itself.
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Aug 28, 2019 01:24
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Super Rad posted:Didn't the OpenAI team retire from Dota? Really disappointing too since OpenAI was one of my favorite Dota-related developments, I had hoped that if it ever became completely competent (use all heroes/items) that it could be used to balance Dota itself. (The same thing is happening with the Starcraft 2 ML AI, where having a useful definition of "human-like" APM and reaction time is even more important.)
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Aug 28, 2019 01:34
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I think at some point teams are going to actually think about the openai farm distribution and see if that's workable in human games because if it is better than normal distribution it would probably completely break the game
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Aug 28, 2019 01:51
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OpenAI won't be a true practicing option until it plays with a normal ruleset.
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Aug 28, 2019 02:51
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The open secret right now is that Ramzes is joining EG as pos 3. There are also some rumors that Abed might be joining EG and Sumail might be leaving.
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Aug 28, 2019 03:50
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Sampatrick posted:The open secret right now is that Ramzes is joining EG as pos 3. There are also some rumors that Abed might be joining EG and Sumail might be leaving. Wasn't there a thing about Sumail wanting to play with his brother?
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Aug 28, 2019 03:56
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Sampatrick posted:The open secret right now is that Ramzes is joining EG as pos 3. There are also some rumors that Abed might be joining EG and Sumail might be leaving. Lmao Rtz-Abed-Ramzes 1-2-3 would be so bad. It’s like EG is staring at the evidence from OG winning two straight TIs and zagging the opposite direction.
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Aug 28, 2019 04:02
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Yeah the rumored stack is Yawar, CCnC, Sumail, MSS, and SVG I do not believe that the rumored Hasan stack is likely to be better than the rumored EG stack
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Aug 28, 2019 04:02
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mikeraskol posted:Lmao Rtz-Abed-Ramzes 1-2-3 would be so bad. It’s like EG is staring at the evidence from OG winning two straight TId and zagging the opposite direction. I want to say that the rumor is Abed as carry, rtz back to mid, and Ramzes back to offlane. Ramzes has been playing pos 3 in pubs at the very least iirc.
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Aug 28, 2019 04:03
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Sampatrick posted:I want to say that the rumor is Abed as carry, rtz back to mid, and Ramzes back to offlane. Ramzes has been playing pos 3 in pubs at the very least iirc. Potato potato. Same difference and just as bad. Seeking individual technical skill like it’s the be all end all when we’re clearly in a world where the baseline pro skill is so high it’s other factors that truly elevate a team.
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Aug 28, 2019 04:05
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Sampatrick posted:Yeah the rumored stack is Yawar, CCnC, Sumail, MSS, and SVG wasn't there an incarnation of EG where SumaiL played offlane and it was just absolutely awful?
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Aug 28, 2019 04:10
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Ramzes as 3 sounds so goddamn bad I thought SVG was returning to coaching? He's back, again?
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Aug 28, 2019 04:12
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IcePhoenix posted:wasn't there an incarnation of EG where SumaiL played offlane and it was just absolutely awful? Yes it was in the meta where mid was a dual lane. Sumail went off and Fear went mid I think. That team had a lot of problems beyond Sumail offlane. I think Misery was making GBS threads it up as captain.
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Aug 28, 2019 04:14
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mikeraskol posted:Yes it was in the meta where mid was a dual lane. Sumail went off and Fear went mid I think. That team had a lot of problems beyond Sumail offlane. I think Misery was making GBS threads it up as captain. yeah I just found it and it turns out it was the team that led to them poaching s4 and Fly so I guess everything turned out ok
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Aug 28, 2019 04:15
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Incoherence posted:I don't think that's really viable: as much as OpenAI tried to "balance" the AI's reaction time against human players, the AI would never play the same way human players do, and so balancing around the AI would contort the human-player meta. It'd be as if Valve started balancing the whole game around 2k pubs. Yeah it might be hard to draw fine-tuning conclusions from OpenAI results but considering that OpenAI is capable of playing hundreds of thousands of games per week it might still be possible to draw some big picture notions, like if a particular hero has a positive winrate across all team compositions and farm priorities, I could see it being significant enough data to do some tweaking. Same with items, I'd imagine the too-goodness of PMS, Aquila, and Iron Talon could be determined from looking at enough samples of OpenAI data. Testing out new patches with a week of OpenAI grinding prior to public release could stop IceFrog from putting out totally busted stuff all the time.
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Aug 28, 2019 04:16
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Reality Sinner posted:Ramzes as 3 sounds so goddamn bad Ramzes was originally a 3 a few years ago. He's definitely still a very skilled offlaner.
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Aug 28, 2019 04:18
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mikeraskol posted:Potato potato. Same difference and just as bad. Seeking individual technical skill like it’s the be all end all when we’re clearly in a world where the baseline pro skill is so high it’s other factors that truly elevate a team. Well yeah but clearly the current incarnation of the EG squad lacks those qualities. If that is the case, then it makes sense to change the roster.
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Aug 28, 2019 04:22
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Sampatrick posted:Well yeah but clearly the current incarnation of the EG squad lacks those qualities. If that is the case, then it makes sense to change the roster. ??? Right and what I’m saying is that if they pick up Ramzes and Abed they haven’t learned anything and are grabbing the same qualities as what they are replacing - qualities that are just not enough anymore. There’s a reason why VP fails at TI, why Abed has never won poo poo and why all these high skilled EG squads have accomplished nothing beyond 3rd place. There is legit nothing that Ramzes or Abed have done that indicate this is a shift in the team rather than more of the same.
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Aug 28, 2019 04:28
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mikeraskol posted:Lmao Rtz-Abed-Ramzes 1-2-3 would be so bad. It’s like EG is staring at the evidence from OG winning two straight TIs and zagging the opposite direction. That sounds like the most greedy lineup in the history of dota
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Aug 28, 2019 04:29
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TheRat posted:That sounds like the most greedy lineup in the history of dota yeah it's gonna be great
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Aug 28, 2019 04:42
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I’m really sad that Fade is retiring because of some bullshit
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Aug 28, 2019 04:44
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The REAL Goobusters posted:I’m really sad that Fade is retiring because of some bullshit He speaks some English so he could potentially play for a western team. Only CN will have blackballed him. E: there are options. If say kpii were to link up with him that would certainly help bridge the language gaps
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Aug 28, 2019 05:45
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Even at its height OpenAI couldn't beat human teams without limiting both teams to a single-digit hero pool and turbo-mode couriers shipping unlimited regen instantly. Even weird lanes would cause the AI to lose it. We're still a million miles out from OpenAI being used to approach game balance
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Aug 28, 2019 05:50
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RazzleDazzleHour posted:Even at its height OpenAI couldn't beat human teams without limiting both teams to a single-digit hero pool and turbo-mode couriers shipping unlimited regen instantly. Even weird lanes would cause the AI to lose it. We're still a million miles out from OpenAI being used to approach game balance But yes, the 20 arbitrary hero meta that humans have never theorycrafted or practiced is not immediately useful for 117 hero meta
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Aug 28, 2019 06:11
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mikeraskol posted:??? They wouldn't pick up Ramzes and Abed in order to increase the technical skill of the team is what I'm saying. Yes, obviously every team is full of very good players and so it takes more than just that in order to win tournaments. You're not making some crazy revelatory statement. If EG is indeed going for this lineup, then it's obvious that they're trying to make some huge shifts in how they approach the game. I don't understand why you're having so much difficulty grasping this concept.
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Aug 28, 2019 06:38
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The REAL Goobusters posted:I’m really sad that Fade is retiring because of some bullshit I'm also sad that Fade is retiring but lmao it really does sound like he invented a story in order to increase his salary
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Aug 28, 2019 06:38
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ars art innocent!!!
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Aug 28, 2019 07:15
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Sampatrick posted:They wouldn't pick up Ramzes and Abed in order to increase the technical skill of the team is what I'm saying. Yes, obviously every team is full of very good players and so it takes more than just that in order to win tournaments. You're not making some crazy revelatory statement. If EG is indeed going for this lineup, then it's obvious that they're trying to make some huge shifts in how they approach the game. I don't understand why you're having so much difficulty grasping this concept. You're legitimately making no sense (which may be why I can't grasp the concept!) or not following my point at all. You seem to be saying that the fact that they are making a change at all means they are thinking about some huge shift at how they approach the game. I'm saying that the change they are looking to make (assuming true) indicates no huge shift and is an attempt to replace one high-skilled player with another while ignoring what makes the best teams the best right now. So gently caress right off with your condescending "i'm not making some crazy revelatory statement," and apparently like you I don't see why you're having such difficulty here. You seem to be able to read my words but for some reason are ignoring the content. Let me emphasize again. Abed and Ramzes are highly technical skilled players that so far (Abed more than Ramzes) have not demonstrated any ability to be part of a more cohesive, main-stage successful Dota team. I think Ramzes potentially can be, but Abed is basically just a worse Sumail with none of the other qualities I'm talking about here. mikeraskol fucked around with this message at 07:28 on Aug 28, 2019 |
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Aug 28, 2019 07:20
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mikeraskol posted:You're legitimately making no sense or not following my point at all. You seem to be saying that the fact that they are making a change at all means they are thinking about some huge shift at how they approach the game. Your point is literal nonsense. They're not going to swap a high skill player for a low skill player, that would be loving nonsense. The things that make the best teams the best have everything to do with how they play together - so if they're swapping out Sumail of all people or bringing in Ramzes of all people in the 3 position, it's clear that they're factoring in how they're going to play together, which means they are clearly not exclusively thinking about technical skill. If they were, they wouldn't be looking at a pos 3 Ramzes lmao.
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Aug 28, 2019 07:29
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Sampatrick posted:Your point is literal nonsense. They're not going to swap a high skill player for a low skill player, that would be loving nonsense. The things that make the best teams the best have everything to do with how they play together - so if they're swapping out Sumail of all people or bringing in Ramzes of all people in the 3 position, it's clear that they're factoring in how they're going to play together, which means they are clearly not exclusively thinking about technical skill. If they were, they wouldn't be looking at a pos 3 Ramzes lmao. And your point is literally not anything worth using brain cells on - of course teams don't loving try to get worse when they make changes. I'm saying that these changes, if true, indicate a continuing focus on mechanical skill as a team building strategy above all other things. If you were asking me who is a mechanical skill facsimile of Sumail, Abed might be the answer. It indicates to me that they aren't learning or thinking about the box. I'm so confused as to why this is hard to grasp for you? You seem to think that any change means they aren't exclusively thinking about more than technical skill which is just nonsense. I'd say bringing in Abed/Ramzes on this kind of short timeline shows that they are still focused on the same problematic thing. Edit: Your post also implicitly incorporates this idea that they are choosing to replace Sumail with someone, when it is likely the opposite. They are losing Sumail, and are looking to rebuild the roster. This makes a huge difference - it isn't dumping a highly skilled player for another they think will fit better. They're looking to do a raw skill swap. mikeraskol fucked around with this message at 07:42 on Aug 28, 2019 |
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Aug 28, 2019 07:32
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RazzleDazzleHour posted:Even at its height OpenAI couldn't beat human teams without limiting both teams to a single-digit hero pool and turbo-mode couriers shipping unlimited regen instantly. Even weird lanes would cause the AI to lose it. We're still a million miles out from OpenAI being used to approach game balance They had loving great 5v5 thanks to being bots -- I tried playing against them when they were open to public, did not get a single blink+ravage or invis+ravage, because they could always interrupt my casting before castpoint -- but their game was otherwise lacking and had holes you could drive a truck through. Sadly, the hero pool was limited to exclude trucks 
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Aug 28, 2019 07:42
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There are more events than just TI and Fnatic performing like poo poo this TI had as much to do with the offlane hero pool and having to scramble with a new lineup. You will also note that Fnatic was eliminated by Liquid, who got 2nd at this event. At TI7, Abed lost to LGD who got 4th at the event. TI7 was Abed's first TI. This isn't some situation where a player has been in the scene for a long rear end time and never had any results. Abed has only been playing competitively for a relatively short amount of time and has pretty clearly been doing better and better. He's also clearly extremely loving good and if you look at the rest of the teams he's had to play with at TI, it's pretty loving obvious where the weak links are. Also, Abed has a completely different playstyle compared to Sumail wtf are you talking about. Just because they both play mid doesn't mean that they do the same things. Once again, if they were just looking at technical skill, Sumail would still be playing mid. I'm actually completely baffled by what you think EG should do to change if not bring in new players in multiple positions. Like, should they only bring in well known, proven players? That's literally what the current EG lineup is. 5 proven, technically skilled players. Clearly, that is insufficient, so of course they would look towards new players who maybe haven't had a chance to shine or haven't had a chance to shine in a particular position. Why would Sumail ever leave EG voluntarily lmao. He's going to stay in NA for the foreseeable future.
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Aug 28, 2019 07:45
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Sampatrick posted:Why would Sumail ever leave EG voluntarily lmao. He's going to stay in NA for the foreseeable future. I mean, this tells me everything I think I need to know right here. If you think EG is voluntarily dropping Sumail I don't really think this conversation is worth having.
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Aug 28, 2019 07:48
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mikeraskol posted:I mean, this tells me everything I think I need to know right here. If you think EG is voluntarily dropping Sumail I don't really think this conversation is worth having. You're right, Sumail probably did peace out of EG to go play with Yawar. I just think you're being incredibly harsh in your predictions about what amounts to a completely new roster based on some very results oriented arguments.
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Aug 28, 2019 08:01
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Doesnt sumail have ownership stake in eg? He's not leaving.
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Aug 28, 2019 08:36
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Reality Sinner posted:Doesnt sumail have ownership stake in eg? He's not leaving. Pretty sure ppd, fear and universe also did
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Aug 28, 2019 08:50
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