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General Dog
Apr 26, 2008

Everybody's working for the weekend

Dishwasher posted:

I think this is the main issue. This isn't Shakespeare. The writing and plot is about the same in the ST as it is in the PT and OT. People wanted something comparable to some of the best stories being created today. Instead, people just got more Star Wars.

If we're talking quality of dialogue that's a defensible take, but the galactic conflict in the ST is nonsensical and takes massive shortcuts in a way that the PT and OT never did.

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Vinylshadow
Mar 20, 2017

Dishwasher posted:

I think this is the main issue. This isn't Shakespeare. The writing and plot is about the same in the ST as it is in the PT and OT. People wanted something comparable to some of the best stories being created today. Instead, people just got more Star Wars.

A gangster, aye, a gangster, O!
’Tis well to be a gangster. A blaster ever by thy side, A stately barge in which to ride, A fair, young damsel to thee tied,
’Tis well to be a gangster. A gangster, aye, a gangster, O! ’Tis well to be a gangster.
Full many servants lend thee aid, More guards than a Naboo brigade, And bounty hunters on parade—
’Tis well to be a gangster. A gangster, aye, a gangster, O! ’
Tis well to be a gangster. The drinks all flowing fast and free, A sarlacc pit not far from thee, A rancor for thine enemy,
’Tis well to be a gangster. A gangster, aye, a gangster, O! ’Tis well to be a gangster.”

:discourse:

Dishwasher
Dec 5, 2006

Congratulations on not getting fit in 2011!

Vinylshadow posted:

A gangster, aye, a gangster, O!
’Tis well to be a gangster. A blaster ever by thy side, A stately barge in which to ride, A fair, young damsel to thee tied,
’Tis well to be a gangster. A gangster, aye, a gangster, O! ’Tis well to be a gangster.
Full many servants lend thee aid, More guards than a Naboo brigade, And bounty hunters on parade—
’Tis well to be a gangster. A gangster, aye, a gangster, O! ’
Tis well to be a gangster. The drinks all flowing fast and free, A sarlacc pit not far from thee, A rancor for thine enemy,
’Tis well to be a gangster. A gangster, aye, a gangster, O! ’Tis well to be a gangster.”

:discourse:

Now a want a Star Wars Shakespearean stage play.

Dishwasher
Dec 5, 2006

Congratulations on not getting fit in 2011!

General Dog posted:

If we're talking quality of dialogue that's a defensible take, but the galactic conflict in the ST is nonsensical and takes massive shortcuts in a way that the PT and OT never did.

Fair enough. The broader scope of the war isn't really touched on as well as I'd like. But, remember, many of the finer details in the OT were also left open to context clues and 'sequel-prequel'-bait while the PT had a little too much exposition on details to where its in danger of failing to 'show-don't-tell'. All three had goofy quirks in their execution (and lots of literal goofy rear end poo poo in general). The PT and OT stuck the landing with satisfying conclusions and maybe a feeling of some missed opportunities if examined objectively. If the ST has a good ending, and I do like this current leak much more than TLJ's around this time, much of it's quirks will be forgiven too I think.

Neo Rasa
Mar 8, 2007
Everyone should play DUKE games.

:dukedog:

General Dog posted:

If we're talking quality of dialogue that's a defensible take, but the galactic conflict in the ST is nonsensical and takes massive shortcuts in a way that the PT and OT never did.

A New Hope is one of the tightest movies ever made. Like scene when the Imperial officers+Vader+Tarkin meet, think of what an insanely bad and tedious exposition dump the equivalent of that scene is in so many other sci-fi/fantasy/adventuresome movies. But there it's like nothing even two minutes and you know everyone's personality, where they all stand on the movie's conflict so far, and what the geopolitical situation of the galaxy is, etc. It's perfect.

To compare, Force Awakens had some cut Leia dialogue when they first meet her where she talks a bit more about what's going on with the First Order/why they're such a thing but no one cares and how she/some folks get funding the Resistance secretly or whatever, but it was cut out. Like it probably needed to be gone over once or twice to be smooth and not just halt the movie to explain the movie to us but they just cut it out completely. But as the first movie in a new trilogy of these movies, like, it might have been nice to actually establish what was going on? And like I'm sure everyone's mentioned before the First Order blows up that ENTIRE SYSTEM but somehow, like, the rest of the governments of the galaxy are just sort of cool with that? A New Hope is simple stuff but it does a good establishing how even the other officers are like, really? You're just gonna shut the senate down completely and still maintain order? But they're swayed by Tarkin's confidence in the Death Star's power and the empire's general military prowess being able to back up the will of the local imperial governors and stuff. And even if that clearly didn't work out all that well, you see how they came to be cool with that and go for it because they're assholes and are at this point an established huge empire and all that entails.

Force Awakens it's like, this one upstart army on this one planet is sending a few ships around massacring stuff while Ren/Snoke's real purpose behind that is to track down Luke Skywalker. They're this fringe group the rest of the republic doesn't take seriously as a threat or whatever who brainwashes kids into serving them from when they're young. But then they blow up that entire solar system that has Hosnian or whatever that main political center of the galaxy was and like, folks are just...fine with that and they're allowed to begin conquering the galaxy from then? Like the does the rest of the galaxy even give a poo poo when Last Jedi is happening if the entire Resistance is like 20 people on the Falcon by the end and the First Order is just full blast chasing down this one ship and nothing else?

Kanine
Aug 5, 2014

by Nyc_Tattoo

General Dog
Apr 26, 2008

Everybody's working for the weekend
For my money, Han and Leia's reunion scene in The Force Awakens is the worst scene in the entire series, as it's a 2-3 minute information dump that provides no meaningful character beats, and- remarkably- no meaningful information, either.

euphronius
Feb 18, 2009

You learned that leia got a new hair cut which is actually very telling and important

Impossibly Perfect Sphere
Nov 6, 2002

Dead? That's what they want you to think.

euphronius posted:

You learned that leia got a new hair cut which is actually very telling and important

She also apparently spent the last 30 years eating cigarettes.

Small Strange Bird
Sep 22, 2006

Merci, chaton!

Dishwasher posted:

Now a want a Star Wars Shakespearean stage play.
I'm certain that some years back I saw a book that retold ANH in iambic pentameter.

Neo Rasa
Mar 8, 2007
Everyone should play DUKE games.

:dukedog:

Jiminy Christmas! Shoes! posted:

She also apparently spent the last 30 years eating cigarettes.

"We are the spark of hope, that will light the fire, that will burn the First Order down" was actually a line from a performatively woke desthsticks ad.

Colostomy Bag
Jan 11, 2016

:lesnick: C-Bangin' it :lesnick:

What brand did Uncle Palp smoke?

Impossibly Perfect Sphere
Nov 6, 2002

Dead? That's what they want you to think.
Carrie Fisher's voice really, really took me out of the new movies every time she was on screen. I know it wasn't her fault, but I can't reconcile the idea of Leia sounding like she has meth mouth.

Timby
Dec 23, 2006

Your mother!

Jiminy Christmas! Shoes! posted:

Carrie Fisher's voice really, really took me out of the new movies every time she was on screen. I know it wasn't her fault, but I can't reconcile the idea of Leia sounding like she has meth mouth.

She had that voice for ages. I remember being shocked when I saw her cameo in Scream 3 in the theater and she was already talking with meth mouth.

Super-NintendoUser
Jan 16, 2004

COWABUNGERDER COMPADRES
Soiled Meat

General Dog posted:

For my money, Han and Leia's reunion scene in The Force Awakens is the worst scene in the entire series, as it's a 2-3 minute information dump that provides no meaningful character beats, and- remarkably- no meaningful information, either.

My favorite part of the Star Wars 8 The Force Wakes Up is when Harrison Ford refuses to kiss Carrie Fisher and instead just pecks her head.

It's probably in his contract that he wasn't going to be required to kiss her.

Timeless Appeal
May 28, 2006

Dishwasher posted:

Fair enough. The broader scope of the war isn't really touched on as well as I'd like. But, remember, many of the finer details in the OT were also left open to context clues and 'sequel-prequel'-bait while the PT had a little too much exposition on details to where its in danger of failing to 'show-don't-tell'. All three had goofy quirks in their execution (and lots of literal goofy rear end poo poo in general). The PT and OT stuck the landing with satisfying conclusions and maybe a feeling of some missed opportunities if examined objectively. If the ST has a good ending, and I do like this current leak much more than TLJ's around this time, much of it's quirks will be forgiven too I think.
The issue is more just clarity. A New Hope is correctly celebrated for telling you everything you need to know about the Empire and the Rebellion in the opening shot whereas the Resistance is both a tiny group of rebels and part of the big government and the First Order is both a fringe group and a huge threat. Even The Phantom Menace quickly and cleanly established in the opening scenes everything that you need to know about the Trade Federation in that they're really boring.

Mulva
Sep 13, 2011
It's about time for my once per decade ban for being a consistently terrible poster.

Dishwasher posted:

I think this is the main issue. This isn't Shakespeare.

So there isn't a dick joke every five pages of the script, and in the end everyone won't be killed or married off?

KaptainKrunk
Feb 6, 2006


The sequels are just a mistake on every level.

McCloud
Oct 27, 2005

KaptainKrunk posted:

The sequels are just a mistake on every level.

garycoleisgod
Sep 27, 2004
Boo
To be fair to the sequels, it is hard to try and continue a story that has already 100% finished.

Stupid too, but that money is not gonna make itself and Disney didn't spend $4b to not make Star Wars films, so here we are.

Brother Entropy
Dec 27, 2009

garycoleisgod posted:

To be fair to the sequels, it is hard to try and continue a story that has already 100% finished.

Stupid too, but that money is not gonna make itself and Disney didn't spend $4b to not make Star Wars films, so here we are.

it's less hard if you're willing to take the story into new directions

High Lord Elbow
Jun 21, 2013

"You can sit next to Elvira."

Brother Entropy posted:

it's less hard if you're willing to take the story into new directions

Or tell entirely new stories in a rich and beloved setting, instead of making entire movies out of offhand mentions in the title scroll or explaining to death everything that used to be a fun and mysterious bit of background, or just letting a regarded man skull gently caress the corpse of an iconic character and filming it.

sigher
Apr 22, 2008

My guiding Moonlight...



Brother Entropy posted:

it's less hard if you're willing to take the story into new directions

That would require talent, something Disney hasn't had for a while.

Doronin
Nov 22, 2002

Don't be scared

George H.W. oval office posted:

“No Rey you are MY great-grandmother!”

You see Sheev couldnt get to the world between worlds himself so he tricked a jedi to ferry his great grandmother through time to force impregnate her and re birth himself over time which is why

Neo Rasa
Mar 8, 2007
Everyone should play DUKE games.

:dukedog:

Doronin posted:

You see Sheev couldnt get to the world between worlds himself so he tricked a jedi to ferry his great grandmother through time to force impregnate her and re birth himself over time which is why

This was an actual Captain Marvel storyline in like 1980 so I wouldn't put it past them.

Doctor Spaceman
Jul 6, 2010

"Everyone's entitled to their point of view, but that's seriously a weird one."

Payndz posted:

I'm certain that some years back I saw a book that retold ANH in iambic pentameter.

There are books with that gimmick for most of the movies.

Bogus Adventure
Jan 11, 2017

More like "Bulges Adventure"
Sheev is the Sith Prince, the son of some Sith Lord and Princess Sheevalina.

Vinylshadow
Mar 20, 2017

Jiminy Christmas! Shoes! posted:

Carrie Fisher's voice really, really took me out of the new movies every time she was on screen. I know it wasn't her fault, but I can't reconcile the idea of Leia sounding like she has meth mouth.

It's amusing how Luke, Leia and Han grew up and turned into Mark Hamill, Carrie Fisher, and Harrison Ford

Mandrel
Sep 24, 2006

yeah I can’t really get behind the “well it’s hard to continue a story that was already finished” excuse when they literally did not have to try and continue that story. especially when they wiped the entire EU with the reasoning that they needed the freedom to tell new stories then proceeded to not tell any new stories. they gave themselves the total freedom to tell whatever original stories they want in this beloved fleshed out universe with this cashcow brand name and have so far done gently caress all with it outside Rogue One

say what you want about the various bullshit in the EU, but if they had just cherry picked some post-ROTJ story arc to adapt and used it as an outline to adapt for a ST it would’ve been more coherent than what we’ve ended up with

I was totally onboard when they wiped out all the convolutions of the old EU but at this point I would’ve much rather they just kept it and adapted what they wanted for movies

YaketySass
Jan 15, 2019

Blind Idiot Dog
IMO "there's no Star Wars stories left to tell! The universe is too limited!" rings kind of weak. You don't even have to be original, Clone Wars riffed on Godzilla, Seven Samurai or Hitchcock without problems, and there's an entire catalogue of pulpy stories to steal from just like the original movies did.

The problem is the idea that the movies need escalating stakes, which means we keep getting Death Stars and Imperials because in terms of stakes, a dictatorship aiming to take over an entire galaxy and armed with planet-destroying weapons is kind of hard to topple. That Disney keeps recycling visuals from the original trilogy out of brand recognition doesn't help either, of course.

DeimosRising
Oct 17, 2005

ˇHola SEA!


YaketySass posted:

IMO "there's no Star Wars stories left to tell! The universe is too limited!" rings kind of weak. You don't even have to be original, Clone Wars riffed on Godzilla, Seven Samurai or Hitchcock without problems, and there's an entire catalogue of pulpy stories to steal from just like the original movies did.

The problem is the idea that the movies need escalating stakes, which means we keep getting Death Stars and Imperials because in terms of stakes, a dictatorship aiming to take over an entire galaxy and armed with planet-destroying weapons is kind of hard to topple. That Disney keeps recycling visuals from the original trilogy out of brand recognition doesn't help either, of course.

Why do they need escalating stakes?

punishedkissinger
Sep 20, 2017

DeimosRising posted:

Why do they need escalating stakes?

Because they're making star wars themed marvel movies

General Dog
Apr 26, 2008

Everybody's working for the weekend

DeimosRising posted:

Why do they need escalating stakes?

They don't, he's just saying that the franchise's handlers believe they need escalating stakes, which is a problem.

Neo Rasa
Mar 8, 2007
Everyone should play DUKE games.

:dukedog:

DeimosRising posted:

Why do they need escalating stakes?

something something toyetic

DeimosRising
Oct 17, 2005

ˇHola SEA!


I just missed where he said “the problem is the idea they need escalating stakes”, coulda sworn that wasn’t there originally

YaketySass
Jan 15, 2019

Blind Idiot Dog
I didn't edit it, must have been on your end.

And I mean, stuff like Starkiller Base or all the ridiculous weapons the EU invented post-ROTJ kind of says it all, right?

porfiria
Dec 10, 2008

by Modern Video Games
The next trilogy should focus on Kylo Ren's attempts to use the Galaxy Net to turn adolescents into Incels and Rey's ForceTube videos refuting such efforts.

Cheesus
Oct 17, 2002

Let us retract the foreskin of ignorance and apply the wirebrush of enlightenment.
Yam Slacker

YaketySass posted:

I didn't edit it, must have been on your end.

And I mean, stuff like Starkiller Base or all the ridiculous weapons the EU invented post-ROTJ kind of says it all, right?
Pretty much; no imagination whatsoever.

They go big, George goes small:

quote:

“[The next three Star Wars films] were going to get into a microbiotic world. But there’s this world of creatures that operate differently than we do. I call them the Whills. And the Whills are the ones who actually control the universe. They feed off the Force… If I’d held onto the company I could have done it, and then it would have been done. Of course, a lot of the fans would have hated it, just like they did Phantom Menace and everything, but at least the whole story from beginning to end would be told.”

euphronius
Feb 18, 2009

Lucas is obviously joking and making fun of fans.

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Taintrunner
Apr 10, 2017

by Jeffrey of YOSPOS
It's not even about "escalating" stakes, it's about shifting stakes to something that makes sense in the larger politics of the world as time progresses, which are loosely tied to the real world history of geo-political struggles.

Return of the Jedi wraps up, and: The Empire's collapsed, there's a fledgling New Republic, and there's plenty of bad actors acros the galaxy from the Hutt Cartels to the Imperial Remnant, any of whom would want to capitalize on sabotaging on the New Republic's attempts at building a stable new galactic order based on truth, justice, and democracy. There was Lando's Commandos in the old Star Wars Tales comics that told a story about a squadron of TIE Interceptions turned pirates after the Empire fell which raided trade convoys, which is a pretty good place to start from.

Instead, we spend two movies blowing up the New Republic without any idea what that ended up being, and handwaving away the "Resistance" as it gets obliterated and rebranded into a "Rebellion," and apparently the First Order is essentially an Empire again going into ROTS.

The Sequels make the OT everyone knows and loves essentially a massive waste of time that went nowhere, and we should just embrace our inevitable future being crushed under eternal, galactic fascism. Thanks, Bob. Great message for the kiddos. Watch The Expanse instead

Taintrunner fucked around with this message at 19:48 on Sep 4, 2019

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