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Bust Rodd posted:I think it’s important to point out also that when we say “Louis lost 35-40-50 million dollars” were also saying everyone who worked for Louis, his production company, his writers, his actors, his production managers, his set designers, and all the people who depended on him lost their jobs and immediately had to find to new work” Oh gently caress off with this disingenuous bullshit.
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Sep 22, 2019 17:03
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Joe Chill posted:People feel good using/abusing their power and getting away with it because they can. I know I was just using a Louis CK bit to make fun of Louis CK
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Sep 22, 2019 17:05
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You've never going to get everyone to agree on the proper punishment for these people, and even if a popular consensus was reached, how are you going to enforce it anyway? Even if you say "Well CK has enough money to live for the rest of his life anyway" OK, then what? You can't ban someone from being famous. If enough people think CK "served his time" and are happy to pay to see him perform again, what is there to be done about that? Ban comedy clubs from letting him get on stage? Ban people from buying tickets? Ban web hosts from allowing him to sell his specials on his website? I'm not quite sure what my larger point is, other than it doesn't seem all that productive to get worked up over CK being "allowed" to perform again.
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Sep 22, 2019 17:16
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Bust Rodd posted:I think it’s important to point out also that when we say “Louis lost 35-40-50 million dollars” were also saying everyone who worked for Louis, his production company, his writers, his actors, his production managers, his set designers, and all the people who depended on him lost their jobs and immediately had to find to new work” He didn’t make the entertainment industry shrink, those people can get new jobs. I won’t personally support Louis CK anymore as he’s doubling down on his bullshit and I don’t trust his apologies. I accept that others can if they want. Personally I disagree. What I don’t get is everyone talking about the concept of justice in society. You know what, I agree. It’s hosed up how potentially one mistake... well is CKs case a series of mistakes over years- which does change it a bit... but one mistake can put you in jail for a certain amount of time, you pay your debt to society, then you’re out and can’t get a job, your family is bankrupt, your kids can’t go to college, etc. Like what about a man who takes a fall at work and needs painkillers to manage his back pain. Bad labor laws mean his work won’t pay for it. The medical bills pile up. Meanwhile his pain is always there, but he’s also addicted to the painkillers. Because of the pain he’s slow at work, and late a few days where he slept in due to taking too many of the pills the night before. He loses his job. He gets a job driving for a delivery company but the long hours means he needs some uppers as well. He’s pulled over one day and they find a dealable quantity in his car because of how bad it’s gotten and he goes to jail. Family left, no money for the kids, won’t ever get a good job again. I know it sounds silly but surely stories (maybe not exactly) like this are far more common than you’d think. Now why don’t we start with both reform of the justice system to be more fair on this people and also on societies expectations on feeling sorry for this mans life being “cancelled” due to a poor decision on drugs, why don’t we start with this type of person. Why is it always starting with a millionaire comedian who serially masturbated in front of unwilling women? Why is Louis CK where we decide as a society that no, we are too harsh? gently caress no. He will be fine. He’s worth tens (hundreds?) of millions of dollars.
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Sep 22, 2019 17:40
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Bust Rodd posted:I think it’s important to these kinds of discussions to use the correct language. There is no doubt Louis sexually harassed people, but he didn’t touch anyone, so it’s wrong to say that he molested them. Might seem like splitting hairs to some, but I think the reason these conversations go off rails so often is because the language isn’t super clear and you end up with people basically lumping everyone into one big pile regardless of the severity of their actions or crimes, which leads to bullshit like the Aziz Ansari thing You should look up the definition of molestation because what he did is explicitly molestation, which does not require physical contact. If you're going to be a disingenuous pedant at least be a competent one.
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Sep 22, 2019 18:18
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Well googling seems to suggest molestation is legally defined as sexual harassment/abuse of minors, so harassment would be the correct term but not for the reason Bust Rodd said
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Sep 22, 2019 18:24
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Steve Yun posted:Well googling seems to suggest molestation is legally defined as sexual harassment/abuse of minors, so harassment would be the correct term but not for the reason Bust Rodd said It's not 'legally defined' as anything outside of implied meaning in its occasional use in the specific phrase 'child molestation' in certain state laws. Also no one was using it in a legal context because we weren't talking about charging him with a crime or about court proceedings of any kind. https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/molest
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Sep 22, 2019 18:40
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teacup posted:Now why don’t we start with both reform of the justice system to be more fair on this people and also on societies expectations on feeling sorry for this mans life being “cancelled” due to a poor decision on drugs, why don’t we start with this type of person. Because, unless I'm directly related to or friends with that person, odds are I have no idea who they are. But due to fame everyone has heard of Louis CK and lots of people liked him, so we have a personal connection to his crimes. It's possible to be upset about the miscarriage of justice on both levels, but this thread isn't the place for that.
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Sep 22, 2019 19:06
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Maybe people should have a personal connection to Louis' victims instead. Maybe ask them when its OK for him to tour again
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Sep 22, 2019 19:14
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Imo CK can go work at a gas station like a regular guy. He had his time in the limelight and he abused it and hosed it up.
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Sep 22, 2019 20:06
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Human Tornada posted:You've never going to get everyone to agree on the proper punishment for these people, and even if a popular consensus was reached, how are you going to enforce it anyway? Even if you say "Well CK has enough money to live for the rest of his life anyway" OK, then what? That's what has me at odds with this thread. I never liked CK's standup, he just didn't make me laugh. Most of his jokes were about his own wormy self and it was nauseating. That's just me, though. When the news broke about what he was getting up to with ladies in his hotel room it wasn't (to me) the biggest surprise, since I figured his act was largely autobiographical. The idea of banning someone from working as a comic is ridiculous. You can't say "don't let him work!" to every manager, producer, club owner, etc. and act like it's the voice of god. Those people don't have to listen to you. This isn't freaking China where we've got a bureau of comedy that tells everyone what is funny and what is not. I'd be perfectly happy never seeing him again but there's no reason to expect one outcome over another. He might make a big stupid comeback, repeat his mistakes and make another twenty-or-so mil. Unrelated, acting like him having to seek other employment would be disgraceful just comes off as being lovely to people who work low-level jobs.
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Sep 22, 2019 21:06
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No one banned him. They just don’t want to work with him, and he’s doing secret shows or whatever because he likes to spring up on people because he sucks rear end. He’s no more banned than like, Stephen Sommers is banned from making blockbusters.
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Sep 22, 2019 21:30
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I was referring to those posters who implied he should not be allowed to do shows at all. Perhaps that's so, but enacting that sort of ban would be impossible.
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Sep 22, 2019 21:44
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He should just be executed.
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Sep 22, 2019 22:28
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Bust Rodd posted:I think it’s important to point out also that when we say “Louis lost 35-40-50 million dollars” were also saying everyone who worked for Louis, his production company, his writers, his actors, his production managers, his set designers, and all the people who depended on him lost their jobs and immediately had to find to new work” Louis CK is too big to fail
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Sep 22, 2019 23:10
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phasmid posted:The idea of banning someone from working as a comic is ridiculous. Louis CK habitually sexually harassed women. If you operate a venue, you are putting your employees, patrons, and other comedians at risk by allowing him to work at your venue. And honestly, yeah, I'd argue that it should be illegal for employers to knowingly expose their employees to a clear risk of harassment or assault.
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Sep 23, 2019 00:08
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Bust Rodd posted:I think it’s important to these kinds of discussions to use the correct language. There is no doubt Louis sexually harassed people, but he didn’t touch anyone, so it’s wrong to say that he molested them. Might seem like splitting hairs to some, but I think the reason these conversations go off rails so often is because the language isn’t super clear and you end up with people basically lumping everyone into one big pile regardless of the severity of their actions or crimes, which leads to bullshit like the Aziz Ansari thing This sure is a loving take.
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Sep 23, 2019 00:35
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Timeless Appeal posted:No, it's really, really not. So what's the rule, if someone is known to have sexually harassed or assaulted people they're banned from ever working around other people again? Someone like Louis CK could just gently caress off with his millions and disappear from society but that's not really a realistic rule to have in place. We have prison sentences of varying length for various offenses for a reason, we don't just permanently remove people from society because there's the possibility they'll re-offend.
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Sep 23, 2019 00:44
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Human Tornada posted:So what's the rule, if someone is known to have sexually harassed or assaulted people they're banned from ever working around other people again? Someone like Louis CK could just gently caress off with his millions and disappear from society but that's not really a realistic rule to have in place. Child molesters?
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Sep 23, 2019 00:52
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The point has already been made, but I really don’t see why we’re so concerned with the financial security of a man worth tens of millions of dollars. Louis CK can go get a middle-class family’s house in the middle of Wyoming and he can just live the rest of his life not being a factor to anyone anymore. That is the LEAST we can ask of a dude who molested people.
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Sep 23, 2019 01:03
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Superstring posted:Child molesters? Is this supposed to disprove something I've said? Pirate Jet posted:The point has already been made, but I really don’t see why we’re so concerned with the financial security of a man worth tens of millions of dollars. Nobody here is concerned with CK's financial security, and framing it that way is disingenuous. Asking a dude to go away forever is fine, my question is for the people saying "wow unbelievable that this guy is allowed to work again after only doing X". You can't ban a guy for life from working and you can't ban other people from paying him money to work for them or to see him work. Human Tornada fucked around with this message at 01:14 on Sep 23, 2019 |
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Sep 23, 2019 01:08
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The reason he's not a registered sex offender is because he was rich and powerful enough to get away with it for years. Edit: Human Tornada posted:Is this supposed to disprove something I've said? If you need it spelled out for you, there's your class of people that are removed from society on the possibility they might re-offend and good riddance. Superstring fucked around with this message at 01:13 on Sep 23, 2019 |
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Sep 23, 2019 01:08
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Superstring posted:If you need it spelled out for you, there's your class of people that are removed from society on the possibility they might re-offend and good riddance. You're right, I should have said "We have prison sentences of varying length for various offenses for a reason, we don't just permanently remove every offender from society because there's the possibility they'll re-offend." You got me.
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Sep 23, 2019 01:17
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Human Tornada posted:So what's the rule, if someone is known to have sexually harassed or assaulted people they're banned from ever working around other people again? Someone like Louis CK could just gently caress off with his millions and disappear from society but that's not really a realistic rule to have in place. But what are the systems that exist to make sure that Louis CK isn't just going to do it again in clubs? What evidence exists that he has learned any sort of lesson? What assurances are going out to female comedians that might not want to work at these clubs because of CK creating hostile professional environments? What protections are there for venue employees? Fans? CK didn't get mandated counseling. He didn't go through an HR training. He paid no debt to society. He went off to brood like an 18th century libertine. And maybe it's impossible to offer those protections and that's what it is. But yes, if you own a venue and you have no justification for how you can hire CK while also providing a safe environment for everyone else, you should be held responsible the next time he forces a woman to watch him jerk off or worse. And if that means he is functionally banned from comedy then fine. Timeless Appeal fucked around with this message at 01:22 on Sep 23, 2019 |
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Sep 23, 2019 01:20
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I'm reminded of voice actor and human trainwreck Vic Mignogna, who ended up getting banned from a bunch of cons because the organisers couldn't trust him not to bully staff or try to gently caress teenagers.
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Sep 23, 2019 01:24
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Rehabilitation should be on the table for everyone who truly demonstrates remorse and an ability to change, which Louis CK has not, at all, and likely never will because he has an environment that pats him on the back and commiserates about how unfair it all is instead of one that encourages that kind of introspection. These things don't happen in a vacuum, and the answer to "how much punishment enough" is subtly off in the first place; it's not about extracting an eye for an eye, and no count of years or lost dollars is ever going to be the "correct" answer because it's not about that. It's about protecting society from bad actors.
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Sep 23, 2019 02:25
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Human Tornada posted:You're right, I should have said "We have prison sentences of varying length for various offenses for a reason, we don't just permanently remove every offender from society because there's the possibility they'll re-offend." You got me. In a just world sure but the US has the highest incarceration rate in the western world, mostly men who are minorities and/or poor people. Try being a excon trying to get a job with a criminal record.
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Sep 23, 2019 02:52
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Human Tornada posted:So what's the rule, if someone is known to have sexually harassed or assaulted people they're banned from ever working around other people again? Someone like Louis CK could just gently caress off with his millions and disappear from society but that's not really a realistic rule to have in place. People who serve time for sex offenses often have a really hard time finding jobs even after they've served their time, especially in occupations that put them in close contact with the public.
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Sep 23, 2019 03:14
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Bust Rodd posted:As an incredibly poor person IRL, I personally feel like any amount of time he takes off would feel completely arbitrary because if I say he should take a year and Celtic Predator says he should take 5 years and the woman he hurt say he shouldn’t ever come back... well none of us really have any reason for our arbitrary deadlines, and there is no indication or data to support the idea that taking time off from society to live like an ascetic hermit actually has any impact on your behavior. The $40 million dollars that he lost for himself and his family feels like the biggest punishment any of these predators have faced so far (except for like Epstein). you're missing the point of what I said. It's not about a certain amount of time, it's about showing some sort of remorse or empathy or some sign that recognized that what he did was wrong and that he has experienced some sort of growth as a human. There's no set amount of time to do that in, but based on his current act, he has not only not apologized but is trying to play the victim himself and gain sympathy from people like you who take him wholly at his word. and it's interesting that you focus so much on the earning potential of a serial harasser who got caught and can't make tens of millions of dollars anymore but don't say half a word about all of Louis' victims, who were also in comedy and were either so disgusted by the reaction people had to what happened to them that it killed their desire to do comedy, or who got blacklisted because people had to pick between giving them work and staying on the good side of (at the time) one of the biggest comedians in the country. The biggest loss in this situation is not the $40 million Louis says he lost, it's the potential careers of the women he harassed. people who feign concern for Louis' ability to earn without talking about the victims, whose entire careers were stopped before they really had a chance to grow and probably did have to figure out another career, don't actually give a poo poo about reciprocity, they just give a poo poo about not feeling bad about listening to their fave tell jokes. The whole point of a justice system ideally is about rehabilitation. Obviously our justice system is incredibly punitive and overly punishes most people and often doesn't give many chances for rehabilitation, but ideally, rehabilitation is key, and someone who talks about their actions like Louis does isn't rehabilitated. He obviously doesn't think that what he did was such a big deal, and instead of making amends for his actions, he's complaining about being punished at all. He's a loving shithead and everyone who continues to give him opportunities while he continues to be a shithead who doesn't accept that what he did was wrong is a shithead as well. edit: if you would like a crystal clear example of my point about the victims, lets look at this article from about a year ago talking about the women who Louis actually harassed. "The Cut posted:Back in November, one day after the New York Times published a report in which five women accused him of sexual misconduct, Louis C.K. issued a statement in which he admitted all of their claims were true, mentioned thrice how much he was admired, and said he would now “step back and take a long time to listen.” Nine months later, he apparently decided he had done enough listening and was ready to start talking again, and on Sunday, he dropped in for an unscheduled performance at New York’s Comedy Cellar. DC Murderverse fucked around with this message at 04:05 on Sep 23, 2019 |
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Sep 23, 2019 04:00
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The Tribune article made something clear to me that wasn't clear before: Louis CK is not currently doing comedy. He's babysitting a bunch of Bros who think it's funny to, unprompted, yell out things like "Baby rape." This is his audience now. They're not there to hear new, or really any comedy. They just want to hear him say naughty things about how laid low he's become by the matriarchy or whatever. Before he was taking comedy to new exciting places. Now he's a babysitter. And if he ever strays from that position and forgets to genuflect to their ideology, they'll drop him in a second and he'll really have to get a job at a gas station or something. I now feel comfortable ignoring him in spite of whatever money he gets from these lovely secret shows.
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Sep 23, 2019 04:24
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The secret sets at the Comedy cellar are something every big NY comic does and the article I posted was about a trio of shows in Chicago where he got top billing and all 3 sold out. He’s not tricking people into coming to see him he’s drawing big crowds.
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Sep 23, 2019 04:28
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Timeless Appeal posted:No, it's really, really not. Yes, it really, really is. You are talking about something that is completely outside of civil authority. Outside of any due process of law. Just because you hate someone or their actions doesn't make you an authority. It makes you just another loudmouth who thinks they're an arbiter of right and wrong. You can't tell a person in America "you can no longer practice your trade"*. That's asinine. I don't care about C.K. No one in this conversation seems to either. Throw him in a lake of acid for all I care. But don't claim that doing so is legal or moral. * Of course, people with authority, IE cops, teachers, judges and air traffic controllers have to explain any performance issues. However, those people answer to their own respective authorities, not randos on the internet, because they are responsible for human lives. Making a parallel for artists (ugh, I know) is as I said, ridiculous. phasmid fucked around with this message at 04:52 on Sep 23, 2019 |
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Sep 23, 2019 04:47
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Darth Walrus posted:I'm reminded of voice actor and human trainwreck Vic Mignogna, who ended up getting banned from a bunch of cons because the organisers couldn't trust him not to bully staff or try to gently caress teenagers. He got posted back several dozens of pages but there’s been a lot of hilarious activity on his story that didn’t get posted here like the wildly incompetent estate lawyer he hired because an MRA YouTuber who championed Vic recommended him (and also turned out to be his buddy) Vic’s deposition where he admitted to hiring prostitutes at conventions when he couldn’t find a fan to sleep with Vic admitting to pulling women’s hair uninvited because he thought characterizing the hair pulls as playful and innocent was more important than refusing to admit he pulled hair to begin with The anti-SLAPP hearing where the judge threw out 16/20 of vic’s accusations of slander/tortious interference against his accusers and the judge chewed out Vic’s lawyer including reminding him of things he said a minute prior Judge rewarded legal fees to the defendants (Vic’s victims) Vic’s fans making gun threats against the judge and trying to lawsplain the judge on Twitter, prompting the judge to call all parties in and tell them to arbitrate the remaining 4 charges by oct 3 or else he’d make summary judgements the next day There’s a million more nutty details im forgetting Steve Yun fucked around with this message at 05:33 on Sep 23, 2019 |
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Sep 23, 2019 05:31
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phasmid posted:Yes, it really, really is. I'm glad you stood up and bravely split hairs over a subject you don't care about. Hodgepodge fucked around with this message at 06:49 on Sep 23, 2019 |
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Sep 23, 2019 06:47
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phasmid posted:Yes, it really, really is. Is it our personal dislike of Louis C.K that got him in this situation Or was it the crimes
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Sep 23, 2019 07:03
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https://twitter.com/Complex/status/1173704470162751499 https://radaronline.com/exclusives/2019/09/kevin-harts-sex-tape-partners-budding-acting-career-was-destroyed-by-extortion-scandal/ yeah if we could just cancel kevin hart last year that'd be cool
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Sep 23, 2019 07:05
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Human Tornada posted:Is this supposed to disprove something I've said? people do get banned from jobs, though. There are lifetimes bans from sports, for instance. And it doesn't necessarily take much. A guy managed to get banned from playing basketball in my state just for yelling at a ref.
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Sep 23, 2019 08:47
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phasmid posted:Yes, it really, really is..
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Sep 23, 2019 11:22
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gulag for sex pests reeducation through labor and also constant every day cancelling
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Sep 23, 2019 14:59
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Anyone sympathetic towards gay people should have cancelled Kevin Hart already.
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