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Stroth posted:
Then he burned down the heraldry archive to hide that he's the rightful king.
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Sep 20, 2019 21:05
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I just realized I don't have to care about any upcoming Pratchett movie or television series because I'll just read the novels again  (They're not going anywhere!  )
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Sep 20, 2019 21:14
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Stroth posted:It's also worth noting that the killer was batshit insane, possessed by a horrible eldritch thing, and ready to kill anyone in the room at any time for any reason. Terry Pratchett posted:“...would it be true to say that Captain Carrot, while very happy to be a Watch officer, is the rightful king of Ankh-Morpork?”
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Sep 20, 2019 21:36
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Alhazred posted:Then he burned down the heraldry archive to hide that he's the rightful king. Vimes was the one who burned the archives.
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Sep 20, 2019 21:59
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carrot also makes it clear that he doesn't like the idea of people doing what he says because he is the one who says it - he understands it's harmful even with good intentions. except for short periods in emergencies he rejects the power, that's why I never understood some people thinking there would inevitably be a conflict between carrot and vimes. vimes is his mentor and clearly an enormous influence - it always seems like he pretty successfully passed his republicanism on to carrot. they don't need to literally reenact their ancestor's conflict - they were always sort of doing that? vimes does with cynical optimism and eye for human nature what stoneface did with an axe.
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Sep 20, 2019 23:46
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Carrot doing just the right things that he survives and Gavin dies against Wolfgang in the Fifth Elephant is probably the most shadiest he's been; but I think that considering that the Discworld's whole thing with belief bending things to his benefit as the king-in-waiting, Carrot (and Pratchett because he was a smart writer) does actively limit his literal presence except in pivotal and important moments because he knows reality will shift to his favor.
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Sep 21, 2019 08:12
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SaintFu posted:“...would it be true to say that Captain Carrot, while very happy to be a Watch officer, is the rightful king of Ankh-Morpork?” Man, Vimes is just such a better and more interesting character than carrot.
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Sep 21, 2019 10:41
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toasterwarrior posted:Carrot doing just the right things that he survives and Gavin dies against Wolfgang in the Fifth Elephant is probably the most shadiest he's been; but I think that considering that the Discworld's whole thing with belief bending things to his benefit as the king-in-waiting, Carrot (and Pratchett because he was a smart writer) does actively limit his literal presence except in pivotal and important moments because he knows reality will shift to his favor. As Pratchett points out in other books, the definition of a rightful king is someone with an actual army behind him. So carrot declaring himself the rightful king would change his future lifespan to seconds.
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Sep 21, 2019 12:40
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Cardiac posted:As Pratchett points out in other books, the definition of a rightful king is someone with an actual army behind him. So carrot declaring himself the rightful king would change his future lifespan to seconds. Yeah, but Carrot being Carrot, he could GET an army behind him more or less at will just by asking everyone to just line up here behind him, thank you very much, sorry for the inconvenience.
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Sep 21, 2019 22:09
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e X posted:Man, Vimes is just such a better and more interesting character than carrot. I don't know that that's really true, it's just that Carrot is often used a bit like a plot point or a piece of mobile scenery. If we got to see things from his perspective the way we do with Vimes, I think he'd be a really compelling character. We've heard for twenty books how there's probably a lot of gears churning beneath the simple facade he puts on, and it would be interesting to hear his first-person thoughts during political crises, when he might be doubting himself for not declaring himself king and taking charge, or weighing how much he could get away with when dealing Vetinari due to his identity.
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Sep 22, 2019 18:21
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Phenotype posted:I don't know that that's really true, it's just that Carrot is often used a bit like a plot point or a piece of mobile scenery. He is a character in a book, yes.
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Sep 23, 2019 01:46
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Phenotype posted:I don't know that that's really true, it's just that Carrot is often used a bit like a plot point or a piece of mobile scenery. If we got to see things from his perspective the way we do with Vimes, I think he'd be a really compelling character. We've heard for twenty books how there's probably a lot of gears churning beneath the simple facade he puts on, and it would be interesting to hear his first-person thoughts during political crises, when he might be doubting himself for not declaring himself king and taking charge, or weighing how much he could get away with when dealing Vetinari due to his identity. Well, it's obviously just my opinion, but I am admittedly kind a biased against Carot. A lost kind king who literally has the devine, or narrative, right to rule just doesn't sit well with my stoutly republican rear end.
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Sep 23, 2019 11:16
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The problem is that Carrot’s potential was never explored. He’s just relegated to being the fresh faced deputy. He’s there to solve Vimes’ problems, exposition dump about dwarves, be Angua’s blank faced paramore, and essentially be a wallflower in a cast of interesting characters. Nobby Nobbs has more going on than Carrot, as Nobbs falls in love, shows us a window into his upbringing in Night Watch (his father habitually broke his arms if I remember right) and shows some startling social acumen during his double act with his partner. Carrot is simple, perpetually cheerful, has the capacity for leadership but hesitates to use it, has a very humble mindset (even after a promotion he still knocks on the servant door) and for approximately two books was willing to do shady things: 1) putting down Cruces whose mind was gone, but also shot Angua 2) letting his romantic rival die, again over Angua. Those have the capacity for some interesting character exploration. But that isn’t touched on again. Carrot becomes Vimes plot device and we don’t see those shady qualities again. Carrot is just this supposedly incorruptable pure being that did maybe two bad things but we don’t talk about that because he’s getting Sam through traffic so Sam can read to his son before bedtime. I can’t blame anyone for not liking Carrot, dude is a cardboard cutout. Rip lost potential.
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Sep 23, 2019 11:35
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e X posted:Well, it's obviously just my opinion, but I am admittedly kind a biased against Carot. A lost kind king who literally has the devine, or narrative, right to rule just doesn't sit well with my stoutly republican rear end. Pratchett was no monarchist. The center tension of Carrot's 'kingship' is what happens when you have someone who is a genuinely good leader running into the human design flaw of bending at the knees. Vimes himself notes that he might be okay with Carrot as ruler...except for what would happen after him. Fighting Trousers fucked around with this message at 15:08 on Sep 23, 2019 |
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Sep 23, 2019 14:15
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I wonder if Pratchett was heading towards the modern monarchy with King Carrot largely as a figurehead, with the actual ruling being done through a democratic process.
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Sep 23, 2019 14:32
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Canuckistan posted:I wonder if Pratchett was heading towards the modern monarchy with King Carrot largely as a figurehead, with the actual ruling being done through a democratic process. It kinda seems like Moist was going to modernize the political system. There was the books where he got two governmental services up to date and Pratchett talked about writing a book called Raising Taxes in an interview.
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Sep 23, 2019 15:58
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Fighting Trousers posted:Pratchett was no monarchist. The center tension of Carrot's 'kingship' is what happens when you have someone who is a genuinely good leader running into the human design flaw of bending at the knees. Vimes himself notes that he might be okay with Carrot as ruler...except for what would happen after him. I never said he was, and I agree with what you write, I just don't think any of that is particular interesting. Maybe it is because we don't really get Carot's point of view on a lot of things, but his supernatural perfection just doesn't makes for interesting plot hooks for me. e X fucked around with this message at 16:12 on Sep 23, 2019 |
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Sep 23, 2019 16:08
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I had heard that the planned book, "Scouting for Trolls" was going to be Carrot focused, with him founding/reviving the Ankh-Morpork version of the Boy Scouts.
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Sep 23, 2019 17:08
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Oh, the loss of what could’ve been.  One of the ideas I know that he was interested in was potentially introducing radio to the Disc.
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Sep 23, 2019 18:15
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It would have been nice had the Shepherd 's Crown been finished. The book came out, but it was very much in need of polishing and expansion, with a lot of stuff set up that was never delivered on.
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Sep 23, 2019 18:23
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Epicurius posted:with a lot of stuff set up that was never delivered on. That's how Alzheimer's disease goes. That is how life goes.
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Sep 24, 2019 03:29
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angerbeet posted:That's how Alzheimer's disease goes. That is how life goes. Trust me. I know.
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Sep 24, 2019 05:56
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Now I want a Night Watch book from Carrot's point of view, where he's as suspicious as Vimes and knows everyone in the city, and every time he interacts with anyone he goes through a cold and cynical flowchart of their likely reactions based on their personality, and it always turns out that the right answer is to be simple and polite and friendly.e X posted:Well, it's obviously just my opinion, but I am admittedly kind a biased against Carot. A lost kind king who literally has the devine, or narrative, right to rule just doesn't sit well with my stoutly republican rear end. I think the concept of divine monarchy is silly too, but that's why I like Carrot as a character (or at least as a plot device). In the books, he does essentially have a divine right to rule -- he's literally a magical king destined to reclaim his throne out of the storybooks, and magic and stories and destiny are really important things on the Discworld. And he just refuses to do it, because he knows it would upset a system that's actually working in favor of one that didn't. Phenotype fucked around with this message at 03:55 on Sep 25, 2019 |
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Sep 25, 2019 03:47
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The_Doctor posted:Oh, the loss of what could’ve been. It was more of a footnote. He said that Discworld technology would never advance further than where it was in Raising Steam, but having said that they did have everything they needed to create crystal radios.
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Sep 25, 2019 12:14
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Phenotype posted:I think the concept of divine monarchy is silly too, but that's why I like Carrot as a character (or at least as a plot device). In the books, he does essentially have a divine right to rule -- he's literally a magical king destined to reclaim his throne out of the storybooks, and magic and stories and destiny are really important things on the Discworld. And he just refuses to do it, because he knows it would upset a system that's actually working in favor of one that didn't. Knowing what we do about Discworlds gods, divine right is rather ambiguous to say the least. I always preferred Interesting times approach to who gets to be king/emperor.
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Sep 25, 2019 17:24
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You're confusing "the gods", and capital G god. The real God in Discworld is narrative causality, all other natural laws are subordinate to that. Prophecies have weight, they have to be fulfilled. Carrot's "divine right" derives from that fact. The tightrope he's walking is to technically fulfil prophecy without actually becoming king. tooterfish fucked around with this message at 18:15 on Sep 25, 2019 |
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Sep 25, 2019 18:13
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tooterfish posted:You're confusing "the gods", and capital G god. The real God in Discworld is narrative causality, all other natural laws are subordinate to that. So in other words, whatever Pratchett found ok for the sake of the story. Which I am btw perfectly fine with. The last hero has a nice twist on this in the end of the Cohen-Carrot showdown.
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Sep 25, 2019 18:21
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Sure. I do wonder if occasionally it worked the other way around though. i.e. rather than just being a tool to move a story where he wanted to, it acted as a constraint and actually informed its direction.
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Sep 25, 2019 18:43
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It begins.   (Actually that vaguely Victorian font gives me a little hope)
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Sep 30, 2019 10:13
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The_Doctor posted:It begins. *burts into threat trailing TTFs* ACKCHUALLY
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Sep 30, 2019 12:47
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You can't really have carrot as a king because the city already has a magically perfect benevolent king who always does the right thing in the patrician. Maybe if the patrician wasn't literally perfect and able to solve almost everything then yeah, carrot could have a good story with his king ship
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Oct 1, 2019 03:41
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From this BBC press release, comes this bit of artwork. Sure is, uh, hmm.
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Oct 3, 2019 16:47
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The_Doctor posted:From this BBC press release, comes this bit of artwork. Sure is, uh, hmm. My brain is trying so hard to interpret this image. I am legitimately getting a headache looking at it.
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Oct 3, 2019 16:53
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The_Doctor posted:From this BBC press release, comes this bit of artwork. Sure is, uh, hmm. you can't fool me, that's a ganbreeder screenshot
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Oct 3, 2019 16:57
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Oct 3, 2019 17:47
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Terror Sweat posted:You can't really have carrot as a king because the city already has a magically perfect benevolent king who always does the right thing in the patrician. Maybe if the patrician wasn't literally perfect and able to solve almost everything then yeah, carrot could have a good story with his king ship In the older books the characters weren't so perfect all the time. It's something I noticed as the books progressed, it seemed all the characters as the books progressed got dialed up to 11 in their own quirky ways. I feel it's quite obvious with the patrician in the earlier books vs the later ones.
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Oct 3, 2019 18:57
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Thank God, I'm not the only one who thought it.
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Oct 3, 2019 19:38
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His Divine Shadow posted:In the older books the characters weren't so perfect all the time. It's something I noticed as the books progressed, it seemed all the characters as the books progressed got dialed up to 11 in their own quirky ways. I feel it's quite obvious with the patrician in the earlier books vs the later ones. Vimes transformation into supercop is one of the more boring parts of the series.
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Oct 3, 2019 20:28
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His Divine Shadow posted:In the older books the characters weren't so perfect all the time. It's something I noticed as the books progressed, it seemed all the characters as the books progressed got dialed up to 11 in their own quirky ways. I feel it's quite obvious with the patrician in the earlier books vs the later ones. Wasn't it a different patrician?
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Oct 4, 2019 07:19
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Jerry Cotton posted:Wasn't it a different patrician? It was meant to be Vetinari, but even Terry admitted you could make a very strong case for it being Snapcass.
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Oct 4, 2019 07:30
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