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Pathfinder: Kingmaker is obviously much cheaper - it doesn't really have urban environments, it's all wilderness, ruins, caves. PoE2 has some places that wouldn't work as well (or will be hard to make) in 3D, like the intro or all those parallax effects in-between or when you're high above ground (like in Ukaizo). Anyway, the point is that back in 1998 and even in 2002 when the last Infinity Engine game was released you had a good reason for 2d environments. Baldur's Gate 1 was easier for your hardware than Quake 2 and looked better at least in static. Nowadays even if someone considers 2d to look better it's not a significant improvement, and we all know that performance difference is not there too. Plus I suspect it's harder to develop but what do I know.
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Sep 24, 2019 10:18
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I typically consider pre-rendered backgrounds to look much better than 3d. I’m not at all in the know enough, or artistically inclined enough, to give a good argument why, but I suspect that because they can choose only one angle, artists can put tremendously much more care and detail into that single angle of the scene than is possible with a similar time investment in a fully 3d environment where it’s possible for the player to move the camera around and look at things from any angle. I appreciate really good 3d environments when they’re done well, but pre-rendered backgrounds absolutely bring something that 3d still can’t replicate and are a really good choice for top-down view RPGs like pillars.
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Sep 24, 2019 10:36
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I mean you can have those beautiful backgrounds without lashing the game to RTwP. The success of stuff like Divinity 2, both the XCom series and it's clones, and stuff like Fire Emblem hopefully indicates a potentially healthy market for turn based games. I'm just not sure there's nearly as much a market for RTwP.
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Sep 24, 2019 11:02
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ProfessorCirno posted:I mean you can have those beautiful backgrounds without lashing the game to RTwP. No one said you have to. People specifically proposed an overhead camera to modernize Pillars, and I don't think the change would much benefit the series. I'd also be careful in assuming that turn-based games are popular. Outside of Divinity, every game you talked about is essentially a souped-up strategy game, and most turn-based RPGs recently released has been a bit of a flop sales-wise. There are a lot of features in both the Fire Emblem series, XCOM and Divinity 2 that differentiate them from Pillars outside of the combat system, and the introduction of turn-based to Pillars 2 didn't suddenly give it a shot in the arm sales-wise.
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Sep 24, 2019 11:48
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Fair Bear Maiden posted:No one said you have to. People specifically proposed an overhead camera to modernize Pillars, and I don't think the change would much benefit the series. Sure, but expecting a change to the 2nd game in a series to meaningfully attract new customers would be silly. I know most people in my circle who didn't play PoE1 because it was RTwP have no interest in starting with the 2nd game in a series known for having a focus on story. I'm curious as to what TBRPGs you're referencing, as I can't think of a major turn based RPG released recently and I'd have loved to have missed some.
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Sep 24, 2019 14:50
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Cynic Jester posted:Sure, but expecting a change to the 2nd game in a series to meaningfully attract new customers would be silly. I know most people in my circle who didn't play PoE1 because it was RTwP have no interest in starting with the 2nd game in a series known for having a focus on story. It happens all the time. Witcher 2 (and 3), mass effect 2, and dragon age 3 all sold more than their predecessors. There’s probably even more examples out there I’m not thinking of.
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Sep 24, 2019 14:56
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Starks posted:It happens all the time. Witcher 2 (and 3), mass effect 2, and dragon age 3 all sold more than their predecessors. There’s probably even more examples out there I’m not thinking of. Yes, and those games launched with their current combat systems. Expecting a turn based patch with little to no mainstream hype to have anything beyond a marginal impact on sales is silly, which was my point in the quoted post.
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Sep 24, 2019 15:21
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Witcher also benefited from starting to go multi platform with 2 and then all the way with 3. All of those games also made changes to appeal to a wider audience and had the budget to market to them. Deadfire meanwhile got more complicated in an already niche sub genre and didn’t really have much marketing to appeal to new owners. Personally I think they should just accept that they’re making a game for a relatively set audience and make the game with whatever budget would work, even if it’s lower. If that budget doesn’t exist then I guess that’s just a shame. They made arguably the best one of them ever, I’d like them to keep iterating. Obviously I understand if they want to go in a different direction though.
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Sep 24, 2019 15:30
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Anno posted:Personally I think they should just accept that they’re making a game for a relatively set audience I think they've already done this. PoE2 is hostile to anyone who hasn't played the first game.
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Sep 24, 2019 15:41
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Cynic Jester posted:Yes, and those games launched with their current combat systems. Expecting a turn based patch with little to no mainstream hype to have anything beyond a marginal impact on sales is silly, which was my point in the quoted post. Ah ok. I didn’t understand you meant a post release change. ilitarist posted:I think they've already done this. PoE2 is hostile to anyone who hasn't played the first game. I don’t think that’s true at all. I didn’t even get to defiance bay before stopping Poe 1 and I barely remembered anything about it. The second game does a good job of filling in the backstory. Starks fucked around with this message at 15:50 on Sep 24, 2019 |
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Sep 24, 2019 15:46
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ilitarist posted:I think they've already done this. PoE2 is hostile to anyone who hasn't played the first game. Hostile is a strong word. You definitely get more out of it if you've played the first, but it's a fine entry to new comers as well. Just like Mass Effect 2 and Witcher 2 were. And i can't remember who posted it above, but Deadfire looks much much better than any Divinity or Dragon Age game. Additionally, the Infinity Engines still hold up at least in part because of environment variety. No matter how much you mod NWN, it's still a tile-based system designed first and foremost for drafting up quick adventures for multiplayer.
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Sep 24, 2019 15:47
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I've observed a person not playing the first game trying to get into the second one. They loved the game but couldn't play with all the characters that you're supposed to know and constant references to worldbuilding that already happened. So they've played the first game and came back to the second. For comparison they had no problems playing Dragon Age Inquisition without any prior knowledge.
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Sep 24, 2019 15:59
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Some moments that look uniquely awesome in PoE2 because of the 2d-3d hybrid graphics: - Fighting against the mage in FS where there's that giant laser beam (sound effects do a lot of work here too). - Waking up after the storm clears in Ukaizo and noticing Eothas way in the back just wailing on buildings.
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Sep 24, 2019 16:19
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I don’t see what would be different about Mass Effect or DA versus Deadfire in that regard. PoE even gives you in-line references so you can just hover over a name and get some idea of who they are. And yeah, Deadfire looks miles better than Divinity imo, and it’ll look good forever in a way that few games will.
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Sep 24, 2019 16:23
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ilitarist posted:I've observed a person not playing the first game trying to get into the second one. They loved the game but couldn't play with all the characters that you're supposed to know and constant references to worldbuilding that already happened. So they've played the first game and came back to the second. For comparison they had no problems playing Dragon Age Inquisition without any prior knowledge. I'm sure there's lots of folks like that. There's also folks that didn't care for the game at all and that doesn't make it a bad game. As I said you're definitely rewarded for having played the first. And that's how it should be, imo. I spent over 100 hours on one playthrough of the first game and countless others and loved every second of it, and I like knowing my time there will add further enjoyment to its sequel. I personally think jumping into any connected series on the second or third game is just silly, and that goes for franchises like Pillars, Witcher, Mass Effect, Dragon Age, Arkham, etc. But, that's a right people have and those games are very playable without having to have played the previous games.
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Sep 24, 2019 16:24
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the bigger problem is almost certainly accessibility: games like Pillars don't play well on console, if they get a console release at all. but it doesn't help that Deadfire could probably be titled Infinity Engine RPG 7 (conservative estimate!) - players jumping in now aren't just skipping one entry in the series
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Sep 24, 2019 16:30
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Lt. Danger posted:the bigger problem is almost certainly accessibility: games like Pillars don't play well on console, if they get a console release at all. but it doesn't help that Deadfire could probably be titled Infinity Engine RPG 7 (conservative estimate!) - players jumping in now aren't just skipping one entry in the series That's a good way to look at it. These games were very focused on capturing elements from the Infinity Engine game and selling that to a fairly select group of people. I think it does that really well, but folks coming in wanting this to be a different game are not really understanding the original point of the first Kickstarter and subsequent development. These games are specifically for those of us with computers old enough to remember adventuring around Sigil and Amn while most folks were playing the latest Final Fantasy.
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Sep 24, 2019 16:39
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ilitarist posted:I've observed a person not playing the first game trying to get into the second one. They loved the game but couldn't play with all the characters that you're supposed to know and constant references to worldbuilding that already happened. So they've played the first game and came back to the second. For comparison they had no problems playing Dragon Age Inquisition without any prior knowledge. I've observed a lot of people that got really bored on the Act 2 of the first PoE (that sold well) and not even bothering with the sequel since the combat didn't really change (by looking at screenshots/media at least)
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Sep 24, 2019 16:39
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frajaq posted:I've observed a lot of people that got really bored on the Act 2 of the first PoE (that sold well) and not even bothering with the sequel since the combat didn't really change (by looking at screenshots/media at least) This is a good point. Tried and ended up disliking pillars 1 and didn't pick up pillars 2 until some time after release on a sale. When it first released, it looked to be much the same from brief looks at screenshots and such - it wasn't until I played it that I realized how much they improved a bunch of the things I hated - adding tons of active abilities to physical characters, removing per-rest-spells, no more stronghold management, proper multiclassing, etc.
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Sep 25, 2019 07:23
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Yeah I'd say people feeling burnt on Pillars 1 was probably the biggest hamper on Pillars 2 sales just from observational experience and the fact that I was one of those people for a while!
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Sep 26, 2019 01:54
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frajaq posted:I've observed a lot of people that got really bored on the Act 2 of the first PoE (that sold well) and not even bothering with the sequel since the combat didn't really change (by looking at screenshots/media at least) The first part of Act 2 is also where there is a huge difficulty spike where you more or less need to know what you can try, or keep getting constantly crap kicked out of your party. Especially with all DLC, the first part of Act 2 dumps you a huge laundry list of regions, missions and tasks to do and explore, but realistically there are only 2-3 missions which are level-appropriate and most things on that list are downright impossible but the game does not indicate this in any way. Since the game also does not signal the area difficulty that much, and actually puts higher level sub-areas inside generally easier regions, I do not thinks its coincidence that the "players getting bored" and "difficulty going all over the place" overlap so well.
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Sep 29, 2019 10:14
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There are also Steam achievement data supporting this; 46% of owners completed Act 1, 25% (21% drop) Act 2, 15% Act 3 and 13% completed the final dungeon. 7.9% startedthe White March, while 7.6% completed the first part of the White March, 5.1% the second. So biggest drop among those who actually started to play the game was during the Act 2, in which almost half of the players still playing quit.
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Sep 29, 2019 15:29
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What quests are even difficult in act 2? The drake, the banshee, maybe the ogre? I don't think anyone who got past the Eothas temple and Raedric and the Caed Nua exterior full of ghosts is going to quit in frustration when they run into Helig of Thein
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Sep 29, 2019 16:45
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I was going to say Caed Nua is a sharper difficulty spike than anything else on the critical path in the entire game, but now that I'm thinking about it more I don't know that I've ever rushed to do any of the main story objectives in Act II without clearing out a ton of the sidequests in Defiance Bay first. Maybe that stuff is way harder than I assumed when you don't have all the extra gear/levels/cash from spending several hours goofing off! Anecdotally most of the "I never finished PoE1" crowd seem to report getting bored in the midgame more than the challenge turning them off. It's a shame; the expansion content is some of the best in the game, but there's some bits on the critical path in Act II that get pretty monotonous fast.
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Sep 29, 2019 17:11
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i similarly think--with also little evidence to support this claim--that it's more the case of defiance bay being staid and underpopulated and boring - especially next to baldurs gate and athklatla. the main plot arc that moves through defiance bay is also dull. i only remember heritage hill very fondly.
Zane fucked around with this message at 18:33 on Sep 29, 2019 |
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Sep 29, 2019 17:33
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2house2fly posted:What quests are even difficult in act 2? The drake, the banshee, maybe the ogre? I don't think anyone who got past the Eothas temple and Raedric and the Caed Nua exterior full of ghosts is going to quit in frustration when they run into Helig of Thein With DLC it also offers White March, the siege, some hunts which are on locked areas and battle of Caed Nua. All for which the player is ridiculously underleveled or the quest is simply undoable. Other "difficult but not impossible" I think is that ghost in the mausoleum at Heritage Hill.
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Sep 29, 2019 18:59
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Zane posted:i similarly think--with also little evidence to support this claim--that it's more the case of defiance bay being staid and underpopulated and boring - especially next to baldurs gate and athklatla. the main plot arc that moves through defiance bay is also dull. i only remember heritage hill very fondly. I wager it's this. It's not so much that there's a big difficulty spike (I don't really remember there being a big difficulty spike either), but an already slow moving game slows down even more. The plot thread into defiance bay isn't the strongest, and then you reach defiance bay and it gets even thinner. I think I might've tripped into the main quest on accident while exploring the sewers, first time I played it. Thing start to speed up a bit more once you finally meet Lady Webb, but there's a gap between "reach Defiance bay" and "talk to Lady Webb."
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Sep 29, 2019 22:26
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Yea I really don’t think there’s a difficulty spike in Pillars. If anything the game only gets easier as you level up, which is why the devs introduced some of the auto leveling difficulty switches for White March and the main story path, because folks thought it was too easy. Aside from the aforementioned Defiance bag being kind of sloe and empty, it’s a fact that most people just don’t finish games. It’s not unique to Pillars. People play for a while and get bored and move on.
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Sep 29, 2019 22:43
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Zane posted:i similarly think--with also little evidence to support this claim--that it's more the case of defiance bay being staid and underpopulated and boring - especially next to baldurs gate and athklatla. the main plot arc that moves through defiance bay is also dull. i only remember heritage hill very fondly. I also agree with this. Act 1 was quite strong in gameplay and pacing, but while Defiance Bay isn’t bad, it certainly isn’t extremely exciting. The faction quests are fairly underwhelming and the plot drags. Combined with a weak plot hook in the prologue and act 1 and confusing motivation for what’s driving the story forward, it’s not surprising people would drop the game around that time. As mentioned above, it picks up once you reach Lady Webb, but she’s a somewhat obnoxiously written character in herself and many people may not have even reached her. Act 3 is fairly hit or miss, too. I love pillars 1, but the best content is definitely in the expansions. I know this is probably heresy to a fair number of people, but the game really needed a more clearly defined protagonist. Hairbrained’s Shadowrun games walked that tightrope with considerable grace, giving a fixed background and certain clear motivations to the PC, but still allowing the player considerable leeway to define what kind of character they want to play. PoE and even Deadfire, though to a lesser extent, slip off the rope and fall into the abyss, leaving players to drift helplessly with little clear idea of what kind of part they’re playing the world.
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Sep 30, 2019 08:12
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2house2fly posted:What quests are even difficult in act 2? The drake, the banshee, maybe the ogre? I don't think anyone who got past the Eothas temple and Raedric and the Caed Nua exterior full of ghosts is going to quit in frustration when they run into Helig of Thein I think it's all about the lack of objective. You just conquered Caed Nua and then... what? You have to find those Leaden Key guys of which you only saw one cryptic dude? You get directed to the Defiance Bay but to get there you have to walk through several wilderness locations. And you can go to other places where there's similarly no direction but there are dragons who can kill you. You can also go to endless paths. When BG2 gave you a similar freedom it also gave you a grand goal of gathering gold, so everything you did was for a reason. And if you go to the Defiance Bay I don't even remember what do you have to do. Ally yourself with a faction for the hearing?.. But before that you meet Lady Webb? Or was it after you sneak into a Leaden Key lair?.. You only get an explanation about your personal connection to Thaos in act 3 for some reason.
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Sep 30, 2019 10:50
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Heithinn Grasida posted:Hairbrained’s Shadowrun games walked that tightrope with considerable grace, giving a fixed background and certain clear motivations to the PC, but still allowing the player considerable leeway to define what kind of character they want to play. I think both later Shadowrun games did that Baldur's Gate 2/Mass Effect 2 trick where most of the game is sidequests for a clear reason. In Dragonfall you collect money, in Hong Kong... you do that too, I can't remember really.
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Sep 30, 2019 10:54
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POE1 just had far too much trash for how involved the fights were. And the trash felt incredibly artificial. I think a lot of the reason you have drop-off at act 2 is just fatigue. Deadfire's CYOA sections basically did away with the feeling of artificiality, and the move to mostly per-encounter or resource based abilities I guess removes the temptation to ruin pacing with trash entirely.
WhiskeyWhiskers fucked around with this message at 11:46 on Sep 30, 2019 |
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Sep 30, 2019 11:43
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Poe2 has its own flaws in terms of encounter design. Rather than having the too much trash/sameness encounter design that Poe1 occasionally ran into, Poe2 has fights that can feel sluggish because of the penetration system. For example try fighting Constructs when you don't have the right spells/weapons to penetrate them. It's a slog that takes forever. For the most part the encounter design is greatly improved in 2 though
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Sep 30, 2019 14:44
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Neketaka is a fantastic city to explore. Larger and deeper than Defiance Bay, and I feel like the quests are much more interesting. I didn’t care about exploding DB - it seemed like a minor stop for side quests. I’ve been wandering around Neketaka for hours (days in game) and still feel like I haven’t discovered everything. I love it, more than I loved Akthatkla.
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Sep 30, 2019 15:50
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Ginette Reno posted:Poe2 has its own flaws in terms of encounter design. Rather than having the too much trash/sameness encounter design that Poe1 occasionally ran into, Poe2 has fights that can feel sluggish because of the penetration system. For example try fighting Constructs when you don't have the right spells/weapons to penetrate them. It's a slog that takes forever. On the other hand there isn't really a penalty to using weapons you're not specialized in so it pretty easy to set everyone up to be able to do every damage type.
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Sep 30, 2019 16:08
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Defiance Bay was a bit touch and go for me. My first reaction to it was that it was kind of dead and bland. But the more I did quests in it, it sort of opens up and has a good deal of content in it. I think the only problem with it is that it seems every single building is important and involved in a quest, instead of having rows of houses that are just houses, like Baldur's Gate or Beregost. Neketaka on the other hand is just as amazing and involved as Amn. And possible even more gorgeous in the art department.
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Sep 30, 2019 16:10
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Heithinn Grasida posted:I know this is probably heresy to a fair number of people, but the game really needed a more clearly defined protagonist. Hairbrained’s Shadowrun games walked that tightrope with considerable grace, giving a fixed background and certain clear motivations to the PC, but still allowing the player considerable leeway to define what kind of character they want to play. PoE and even Deadfire, though to a lesser extent, slip off the rope and fall into the abyss, leaving players to drift helplessly with little clear idea of what kind of part they’re playing the world. Strongly agree. I've been saying this for a long time now, but I still feel Pillars narratively suffers from trying too hard to make you too blank a slate, to the point where little to nothing in the game is actually personal.
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Sep 30, 2019 22:08
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I did two completionist playthroughs and the peak boredom part for me was always arriving to Twin Elms. Felt like i've just spent a lot of time and effort "clearing" Defiance Bay and after relatively little time there's this new big rear end city.
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Sep 30, 2019 23:58
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DrakeD posted:I did two completionist playthroughs and the peak boredom part for me was always arriving to Twin Elms. Twin Elms is where I bounced off PoE1 when I played it last. I really enjoyed Tyranny and thought it was a much more focused and enjoyable experience. I've been playing Underrail lately and the CRPG bug has bitten me again. Should I try and replay POE1 or just dive right into Deadfire?
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Oct 1, 2019 01:31
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Saul Kain posted:Twin Elms is where I bounced off PoE1 when I played it last. I really enjoyed Tyranny and thought it was a much more focused and enjoyable experience. I've been playing Underrail lately and the CRPG bug has bitten me again. Should I try and replay POE1 or just dive right into Deadfire? Deadfire is more fun to actually play. Read a summary of the POE1 plot and just play Deadfire.
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