TheHan posted:

I like the idea of the entire point being that oppressive power structures are the problem, and it does play into the attack titan always being used to destroy those oppressive systems (I like Gantolandon’s reading of AOT saying race is a social construct used to separate and oppress lower classes even more, but in a series that’s so heavily focused on genes and heritage like with the Ackermans they’d have to just come right out and say it for me to fully buy into it). The point is that it’s such a strong message already that drawing holocaust parallels where you didn’t need to was the dumbest thing, cause now all everyone thinks about is what does this have to do with the holocaust and what does Isayama think about the Jewish? In the last few chapters he could really take it home and make the moral explicit and that symbolism is still there loving everything up.

Dias posted:

I understand the thread is a bit...sore about the neverending "is AoT fascist/nazist" discourse, but I don't think it's a condemnation of the series to acknowledge, now that we're in the endgame, that its use of imagery is all over the place and not super well thought out - unless some last-minute reveal ties it all up or fucks it all up, of course.

Dias posted:

thiiiiiiiis might be a bit too much, dude

I understand the thread is a bit...sore about the neverending "is AoT fascist/nazist" discourse, but I don't think it's a condemnation of the series to acknowledge, now that we're in the endgame, that its use of imagery is all over the place and not super well thought out - unless some last-minute reveal ties it all up or fucks it all up, of course.

Gantolandon posted:

Japan doesn't have the cultural taboo against using Nazi-related imagery (or at least, it isn't so strong as in Europe and in the US). Attack on Titan is a product made by a Japanese author for the Japanese market primarily, which the Western audience picked up in the middle of the series. I don't think an author from a foreign country has the obligation to only use symbolism that won''t offend the American or European reader.

Conspiratiorist posted:

No, I believe that it uses the imagery to accomplish exactly what it sought to, which is to show the worst excesses of otherization that people actually do to each other, and does so while also treading a line from the most supernatural to the least supernatural.

So we start with living under the threat of literal man-eating monsters.
Then we have the nobility, using "god-given" mind control powers to contain and tyrannize an ignorant population.
We move onto Marley, who have "historical" and "scientific" reasons to push an ethnicity into ghettos.
Child soldiers committing atrocities against their same people first because they don't know better, then because they are trapped by their circumstances.

And finally here we get to the root of everything, and what do we see? Slaves getting their tongues removed because there's no need for them to speak.

TheHan posted:

So you think he had to connect Eldians to Jewish people during the holocaust or this all would’ve been lost on us? Like, it was either the holocaust or slavery in the US less this whole story completely fall apart.

TheHan posted:

Not only is that a really bad excuse to dismiss careless imagery but Isayama is clearly aware of the larger implications of the specific things he used. He’s not putting his bad guys in SS uniforms just to sell how bad they are.

TheHan posted:

So you think he had to connect Eldians to Jewish people during the holocaust or this all would’ve been lost on us? Like, it was either the holocaust or slavery in the US less this whole story completely fall apart. A soldier fed a child to dogs but now that I’m wondering if the Eldians are supposed to be Jewish is when I really think about the depths man will sink to.

Conspiratiorist posted:

Feel free to list examples of systemic real-world otherization that don't actually draw parallels to real-world events.

Gantolandon posted:

It doesn't mean he's unaware, it means that most of his intended audience won't bat an eye.


Dude, you were shown that Attack on Titan cannot possibly be used to whitewash the Holocaust (which was your original complaint). You moved your goalpost to "Well, it's Isayama's fault that I cannot stop thinking about the Jews whenever I read AoT". This is not a viewpoint that makes you look reasonable.

TheHan posted:

Do you mean in fiction? Cause like, a lot. Steven Universe is also about a kid fighting against and eventually changing an oppressive system that looks down on anyone different or considered lesser. There’s a whole subclass of people who’re literally just made to serve and mixing of the classes is grounds for execution. Steven Universe is for children, but it managed to get its themes across without throwing in holocaust imagery.


Whoa buddy, never said AOT is being used to whitewash the holocaust, not even sure where you got that. My original complaint was that it was dumb to put it in at all cause with every new development the conversation inevitably turns to “What is he trying to say about the Jewish?” Conspiratiorist argued that he had to put in the holocaust imagery to get his point across, which I’m currently arguing is uh, stupid. Arguing that he is aware and it’s ok cause his direct audience don’t care is also, uh, stupid.

Gantolandon posted:

He could use other imagery, but he had no obligation to do that. You seem to take for granted that using Holocaust imagery in a story with an anti-fascist message is a bad thing and the author should be ashamed of himself, which is a pretty bizarre idea.

TheHan posted:

Do you mean in fiction?

TheHan posted:

He can use whatever imagery he wants, it doesn’t protect him from criticism if it’s done poorly. You keep posting assuming my issue is with the imagery at all, and not how it was used in this specific context.

TheHan posted:

Depiction isn’t the problem, it’s why draw parallels to the Jewish at all? This is a fictional story about fictional people in a fictional world but for some reason he threw in this specific real world thing.

TheHan posted:

He can use whatever imagery he wants, it doesn’t protect him from criticism if it’s done poorly. You keep posting assuming my issue is with the imagery at all, and not how it was used in this specific context.

Conspiratiorist posted:

Real world.

Isayama chose to use historical events as the basis for the imagery of his work. Was it impossible to tell the tale without it? No, but that's what he chose to use.

But since we're moving.


So are you upset because it was done poorly or because it was done at all?

Dias posted:

So, I think this is where poo poo's getting mixed up. Isayama intentionally used WW2 ghetto imagery for a very specific purpose: displaying the Marley Eldians as an otherized, segregated ethnicity. I think we can all agree with that, no one is saying otherwise. Now, the issue with using real-life imagery is that quite often it's used when you're making allegories in storytelling, and we kinda default to reading them as such. Thing is, I don't think the Marley Eldians work as an allegory for Jews because...they weren't supposed to be an allegory at all. Isayama wanted to evoke otherization and used the most famous symbol of otherization in modern history, but the text doesn't support "Eldians are Jews" both from an anti-Semitic or a sympathetic point of view.

However, from a semiotic perspective, there are still connotations you can't run from when you use those symbols and attach them to a different people, one that's portrayed as having a past as oppressors and rulers instead of exiles and runaways. Does that mean Isayama intended that reading? Again, I don't believe it's an allegory, so no, but it's still there. Even if you say it's a difference in culture, those symbols pertain to a Western reality - it's not a manji being used in a Buddhist context, for instance. I'd say the historical/religious imagery in AoT is not well-crafted overall, it's even used pretty haphazardly. That, I feel, is a valid criticism because it leads to weird connotations.

I think it's interesting to discuss this because it goes beyond "is Isayama/AoT fascist" but I'm fine dropping it after this post.

Gantolandon posted:

You have to prove it's done poorly. Using Holocaust-based imagery fits the story, which first takes every fascist trope existing and deconstructs it, then shows how ethnic-based identity is used by the ruling class to keep their subjects docile and divided.

TheHan posted:

I think if it was done well, it wouldn’t leave room for debate at all. If people are arguing whether you intended to demonize the Jewish race, that’s like my bar for “Did not convey your ideas clearly”

TheHan posted:

I think if it was done well, it wouldn’t leave room for debate at all. If people are arguing whether you intended to demonize the Jewish race, that’s like my bar for “Did not convey your ideas clearly”

TheHan posted:

This pretty much perfectly summarizes it. I’m not coming for Isayama’s character here, just how when you throw in symbolism without considering the wider implications you run into things like, all of this.
A way more innocuous example of this is the creator of the headbanging pigeon pissing off parts of Thailand. In that case, she just wanted to do a nice thing and made a mistake, genuinely unaware of the implications and what those symbols mean. Then you have David Cage and Detroit: Become Human, which just, sucks.


I think if it was done well, it wouldn’t leave room for debate at all. If people are arguing whether you intended to demonize the Jewish race, that’s like my bar for “Did not convey your ideas clearly”

Gantolandon posted:

Just like the existence of bronies and sexualised MLP fanart is a proof that the authors of the cartoon didn't consider the wider implications, they shouldn't have made ponies that could be considered sexy!

Conspiratiorist posted:

That's a pretty low bar when we've got poo poo like Starship Troopers being considered fascist apologia by movie critics.

ImpAtom posted:

That's not really genuinely fair at all. If your argument is "people can take negative things away" then almost nothing can follow your rules. You unironically have people who will argue that ANY sufficiently evil group was in the right. There are people who claim that Voldemort from Harry Potter was objectively in the right despite being a literal snake-faced evilman.

Gantolandon posted:

Just like the existence of bronies and sexualised MLP fanart is a proof that the authors of the cartoon didn't consider the wider implications, they shouldn't have made ponies that could be considered sexy!

TheHan posted:

Yeah you can take it to an extreme, but that’s true of anything. I’ve never read Harry Potter but from what I’ve heard, Voldemort is just wizard hitler and wants to do genocides. I’m assuming there’s nothing in the text that implies he’s in the right for wanting to just do evil things, and only the most liberal interpretations of it could come to that conclusion. That’s akin to those edgelords who college who would try and argue that Hitler was good for Germany, actually

TheHan posted:

Yeah you can take it to an extreme, but that’s true of anything. I’ve never read Harry Potter but from what I’ve heard, Voldemort is just wizard hitler and wants to do genocides. I’m assuming there’s nothing in the text that implies he’s in the right for wanting to just do evil things, and only the most liberal interpretations of it could come to that conclusion. That’s akin to those edgelords who college who would try and argue that Hitler was good for Germany, actually.


See, like this. There’s nothing to support arguments cause the stories make their points clear (or in the case of MLP uhhh, doesn’t bring up loving the ponies at all). Attack on Titan explicitly leaves specific things vague, which in this specific instance is something you super don’t want to leave open to interpretation.

ImpAtom posted:

Then you can point to anything else. The Empire from Star Wars, Starship Troopers, Zeon, X-Men, it doesn't really matter which. There will be a not-insignificant group of people who take that message away from something that has ambiguity in *any* form.

TheHan posted:

X-men pulled a ton from the civil rights movement and coded the mutants as a minority race who are righteous in their mission.

Super Rad posted:

And then you have Magneto, a holocaust survivor, who becomes the embodiment of humanity's fear of mutants who wants to lead an army of mutants to destroy humanity... idk how you could possibly be glossing over that part especially since Magneto's perspective and goals are always portrayed as extremely sympathetic but outright wrong.

TheHan posted:

Do you mean in fiction? Cause like, a lot. Steven Universe is also about a kid fighting against and eventually changing an oppressive system that looks down on anyone different or considered lesser. There’s a whole subclass of people who’re literally just made to serve and mixing of the classes is grounds for execution. Steven Universe is for children, but it managed to get its themes across without throwing in holocaust imagery.

Asuron posted:

You mean the show that had three rulings beings who committed genocide on a global scale, who are then forgiven and sing happy songs in the aftermath with the main protag just because they cried over it a little bit? That Steven Universe? The one where that kind of suffering and violence is just washed over in a thirty minute episode?

To be honest it really seems like you're arguing in bad faith. The idea behind those ghetto's is not to talk about the Jews/Holocaust, it is to talk about dehumanisation and how the cycle of upper classes keeps perpetuating it to various degree throughout history. It's very clear that's the storybeat Isayama is going for and how we are stuck in a perpetual cycle that we must break in order to truly be free from the suffering and violence we inflict on each other. He even has bloody Kruger state that outright to the audience.

What Eren represents is an end to it. That's what the whole last chapter was about, to show that no matter the age, no matter the power, this system ( except the ones who perpetuate it) caused everyone under it to suffer. The only way to break free is to treat everyone as if they're worth something, as a human being worthy of love and that's how the system will collapse.

You'd have to outright ignoring scenes where the manga is telling you the opposite to reach the conclusion you have. Which is always the frustrating part of these arguments, because it's clear the person arguing about the ghetto imagery has either not read the story properly, got their info off some stupid twitter thread or outright ignores scenes which directly state what the author is actually doing.

TheHan posted:

You can compare it to all sorts of media, but literally in this specific story there’s a whole arc that shoves in a ton of holocaust parallels and then at the end the characters asked “what’s the real reason this all happened?” giving two conflicting stories, one of which put the blame on the oppressed.

Conspiratiorist posted:

And at the end of that arc Kruger answers this question by saying both versions are propaganda, and that wherever the truth of the past lies it doesn't change the fact that the oppression the Eldians are suffering through is wrong and the fault for perpetuating it lies in the world's existing power structures (the Marleyan government and the King of the Walls)

Asuron posted:

To be honest it really seems like you're arguing in bad faith. The idea behind those ghetto's is not to talk about the Jews/Holocaust, it is to talk about dehumanisation.

TheHan posted:

So why specifically use imagery from the one instance in history where one side was 100% in the wrong and lying about everything? .

ImpAtom posted:

... Are you being serious right now? Like seriously? That isn't even the only time in the past hundred years, let alone the only time in history.

Edit: Like seriously, you've had a weird undercurrent to what you've been saying and this seems to bring it into light. You seem to be arguing "genocide can be justified" and your complaint is that AoT is bad because it uses the 'one instance in history where one side was 100% wrong and lying about everything' which seems to imply you think all the other times the 'one side' actually had a point for the awful insane atrocities they committed?

TheHan posted:

TheHan posted:

Hey, the point's this:

Attack on Titan's doing a morally grey story where everyone's lovely to each other and there's layers to both sides that have caused them to justify doing terrible things. Eldia attacks world, Marley attack Eldia, Marley attacks world.

TheHan posted:

Hey, the point's this:

Attack on Titan's doing a morally grey story where everyone's lovely to each other and there's layers to both sides that have caused them to justify doing terrible things. Eldia attacks world, Marley attack Eldia, Marley attacks world.

The holocaust was an objective atrocity and if someone's implying that there was any grey in it or that it was retribution for an earlier incident then hell yeah people are gonna start seeing red flags. The whole point is that it doesn't fit into a morally grey story so using that specific imagery was a huge misstep.

And, I just put 'the' instead of 'this' by mistake.