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All this back and forth: Eldians and Marleyians, humans and titans, slaves and slavemasters, who did which atrocity when, on and on and on. Wouldn't it be easier to just... wipe the slate clean and begin again? Let's Ragnarok, baby.  (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Oct 7, 2019 05:04
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Conspiratiorist posted:Did you like, ever take a world history class? It’s cool that you’ve inferred the author’s intent using narrative clues and your knowledge of world history. That’s the same thing other people did when they saw the holocaust imagery. All I’ve really said is that the use of it was clunky and if it’d been left out the story would be better for it. ImpAtom posted:And this is where the issue lies. You seem to think that these things are different if there's 'justification' in it, ignoring that historically there is always justification for it to the people who do it. Many times those justifications are nonsense bullshit and even when they are based on something 'real' that real thing is twisted into nonsense. The idea that there is such thing as an 'unambiguous' mass murder is pretty much ignoring history, because people will always try to justify themselves and even if there is any truth to imagined reasons that doesn't suddenly make it okay. If anything that makes it sound even more out of place. Yeah there are people who’ll try and justify the holocaust, those people are nazis. Why open the holocaust door and invite comparisons between one side of your conflict to nazis, especially when your theme is about violence begetting violence and no side being justified in their actions. Cause now one side looks like nazis, and the other looks Jewish. Just open any other door.
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Oct 7, 2019 05:14
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Kerning Chameleon posted:All this back and forth: Eldians and Marleyians, humans and titans, slaves and slavemasters, who did which atrocity when, on and on and on. Go to Hell. Conspiratiorist posted:And did you ever notice how the Marleyans and Eldians are culturally indistinguishable? Because Eldia was a 2000 year old continent-spanning Empire. Both Marleyans and Eldians were part of the same nation - the racial divide was an artificial construct. There's the parallels (which I'm inclined to believe are more incidental than intentional) for the perceived incongruencies you've so far named. They were probably rival tribes from the same culture area.
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Oct 7, 2019 05:19
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TheHan posted:If anything that makes it sound even more out of place. Yeah there are people who’ll try and justify the holocaust, those people are nazis. Why open the holocaust door and invite comparisons between one side of your conflict to nazis, especially when your theme is about violence begetting violence and no side being justified in their actions. Cause now one side looks like nazis, and the other looks Jewish. Just open any other door. So this actually does come back to the fact that you did mean to type 'the one' and not 'that one.' You think *any other comparison* would be okay. Do you not realize how awful that sounds?  Like let's just spitball here. What door would you open there that would be more acceptable to you?
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Oct 7, 2019 05:21
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MonsterEnvy posted:They were probably rival tribes from the same culture area. Given their differences in equipment and dress/architectural styles, it seems to me that the Eldians were a Germanic tribe analogue while Marley was a Roman analogue, a style which the Eldians then adopted after their conquest.
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Oct 7, 2019 05:34
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ImpAtom posted:So this actually does come back to the fact that you did mean to type 'the one' and not 'that one.' You think *any other comparison* would be okay. Do you not realize how awful that sounds? Why would I mean reaching over and opening a door to another real world mass tragedy? There doesn’t have to be any direct reference to a real world tragedy here at all. If I had to pick a story element to convey that a class of people are being horribly oppressed by their own country I’d probably, I dunno, have a member of that country’s law enforcement murder a child by having them torn apart by dogs. You know, just for daring to wander beyond the arbitrary boundaries set up to confine them. Then I’d clock out early and not open any more doors cause I’ve already perfectly conveyed my message.
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Oct 7, 2019 05:38
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The real moral to the story were the friends we made along the way
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Oct 7, 2019 05:45
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Schwarzwald posted:I do like the take that Isayama Hajime didn't mean to imply anything about anything but he just happened to fall rear end backwards into unintentionally implying that "the Nazis were wrong." The article avoided blurting out that take but more or less implied it. Would there have been less controversy if Isayama didn't use any real world imagery? Sure. But I think we need that sort of imagery because humanity is loving stupid. Just look at what's happening now. gently caress, look at what's happened since WW2, or even before. We didn't learn a god drat thing. I don't think AoT is going to change the world or anything and get societies across the world nevermind Japanese society, to reflect on the awful things they've done and continue to do but I'm a pessimist and that's just me.
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Oct 7, 2019 05:50
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Bilirubin posted:The real moral to the story were the friends we made along the way    Tell you what, Annie can come out if she just spends her entire screen time to the end of the manga murkin' dudes left and right like that again.
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Oct 7, 2019 06:06
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Annie was seriously the most brutal and efficient of any Shifter we've seen. Even Monkey Trouble fucks around too much. Ymir Freckles Edition was up there, but her size was a pretty big disadvantage. Also I miss when we called Zeke Monkey Trouble.
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Oct 7, 2019 06:15
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I like that Ymir finally got a hug after 2000 years.  I still hope to god that we get some explanation that the spinal cord monster is the product of future human science fuckery and that this is actual Earth. Seems unlikely with that world map though. The title page of the chapter says "underneath this world of suffering is another world light cannot reach," so is it a metaphor for the past or the paths dimension or... literally some underground ecosystem that gives rise to titan spinal cord parasites? Viridiant posted:Also I miss when we called Zeke Monkey Trouble. Be the change you want to see.
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Oct 7, 2019 06:40
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redsniper posted:Seems unlikely with that world map though. That one's easy to explain away as a different cultural convention.
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Oct 7, 2019 06:59
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Captain_duck posted:... wait does that mean the giant tree forests are literally titan trees? Might they all have an alien spine creature beneath them? DaveKap posted:I don't know if it was ever mentioned in the manga or show, but in the game there's an infographic about the forest of tall trees that includes "it's suspected that the geology of the region is what caused the trees to grow so large" and it makes me wonder if the special minerals the world wants from Paradis are going to play into the story any further than "it's why Marley wanted Paradis back." redsniper posted:The title page of the chapter says "underneath this world of suffering is another world light cannot reach," so is it a metaphor for the past or the paths dimension or... literally some underground ecosystem that gives rise to titan spinal cord parasites? DaveKap fucked around with this message at 08:41 on Oct 7, 2019 |
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Oct 7, 2019 08:39
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There is one more thing that suggests that ethnicity doesn't matter at all: in the entire flashback, there is no indication that titan powers are inherited. Rosa, Maria and Shina had to consume their mother's spine and the king orders them to teach their children to repeat this process. Doing that splits the path further and further, creating weaker and smaller titans. Pure Titan transformation behaves in a similar way – the victim needs to ingest a bit of infected spinal fluid. Its amount absolutely matters – we see the Marleyan soldier being able to decide how big a Titan he wants to create by injecting it with more or less fluid. We never ever see the bloodline mattering for this process, i. e. a non-Eldian not transforming into a Titan despite being injected. We are only told that it absolutely matters – first by Rob Reiss, who turned out not to know poo poo about Titans, then by Marleyans who need the racial narrative to keep using a part of its population as slaves. I really, really wouldn't be surprised if the "Eldians" in Liberio turned out not to have even a drop of Eldian blood.
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Oct 7, 2019 10:07
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I thought being Eldian mattered for Zeke's spinal cord roar thing he does? It certainly seems to matter for the Founding Titan's mind powers.
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Oct 7, 2019 10:28
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Gantolandon posted:There is one more thing that suggests that ethnicity doesn't matter at all: in the entire flashback, there is no indication that titan powers are inherited. Rosa, Maria and Shina had to consume their mother's spine and the king orders them to teach their children to repeat this process. Doing that splits the path further and further, creating weaker and smaller titans. That ignores how the powers of the Founding Titan only work on the Subjects of Ymir, and how the Marleyan upper echelons have seriously contemplated exterminating the Eldians and it is only their value as a source of titans that keeps such discussions in the backburner.
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Oct 7, 2019 10:32
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Conspiratiorist posted:That ignores how the powers of the Founding Titan only work on the Subjects of Ymir, and how the Marleyan upper echelons have seriously contemplated exterminating the Eldians and it is only their value as a source of titans that keeps such discussions in the backburner. The latter is easy to explain – Marleyan generals believed their own bullshit. They didn't know Marley is ruled by Tyburs after all. I have no good explanation for the mind control issue, though.
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Oct 7, 2019 10:59
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I wager Titan infection is spread via blood, whether it be hereditary or cannibalism. I think a regular ol' Marleyan or other non-infected would become an "Eldian" if they were to consume flesh of a titan shifter, and anyone infected already who has children passes it down.
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Oct 7, 2019 11:47
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Captain Invictus posted:I wager Titan infection is spread via blood, whether it be hereditary or cannibalism. I think a regular ol' Marleyan or other non-infected would become an "Eldian" if they were to consume flesh of a titan shifter, and anyone infected already who has children passes it down. Probably this I cant be that everyone can become a titan. They explain how they use eldians has bio-weapons by infiltrating some on a city a then spraying titan spine fluid on the air. If everyone was affected, they could skip infiltrating eldians and just spray the thing. Also, while doing this they coulndt help but notice if everyone became titans, not just the eldians they put there, so "they believe they own bullshit" dont works Elias_Maluco fucked around with this message at 12:35 on Oct 7, 2019 |
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Oct 7, 2019 12:32
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Captain Cappy posted:The Holocaust is also a bad comparison because the Jews and other undesirables were being systematically murdered with the goal of eliminating them entirely. The situation with Eldians in Marley is closer to a colonization efforts (such as Japanese rule over Korea) where the residents are being used for slave labor, cannon fodder, and titan fodder. The Eldians are not being systematically eliminated, at least for now. It's still an incredibly lovely situation, but it's not even in the same ballpark as the friggin' Holocaust or the second Sino-Japanese war. It's not a comparison the author should have made lightly and comes off as being done for shock value. Also jews and the others rounded up were being used for mass slave labor.
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Oct 7, 2019 12:42
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In case you don't bother to look it up: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Forced_labour_under_German_rule_during_World_War_II quote:The use of forced labour and slavery in Nazi Germany and throughout German-occupied Europe during World War II took place on an unprecedented scale.[2] It was a vital part of the German economic exploitation of conquered territories. It also contributed to the mass extermination of populations in German-occupied Europe. The Nazi Germans abducted approximately 12 million people from almost twenty European countries; about two thirds came from Central Europe and Eastern Europe.[1] Many workers died as a result of their living conditions – extreme mistreatment, severe malnutrition, and worst tortures were the main causes of death. Many more became civilian casualties from enemy (Allied) bombing and shelling of their workplaces throughout the war.[3] At its peak the forced labourers comprised 20% of the German work force. Counting deaths and turnover, about 15 million men and women were forced labourers at one point during the war.[4]
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Oct 7, 2019 12:46
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Also we should have media talk about the holocaust over and over again and make people feel very uncomfortable because people have this weird idea that nazi germany was a historical aberration of unique circumstances instead of a product that could unfold in any system of hierarchy.
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Oct 7, 2019 13:00
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So what was making the Titan bodies for Ymir? Was she outside of time making her own bodies? And if so does that mean she was always predestined to have Titan powers and free will doesn’t exist in Titan world? I like the idea that the Titan powers come from a weird parasite instead of some divine source, but now I’m wondering about how all the crazy metaphysics came to be. I know it’s really not important nor will it probably be answered, but I can’t stop wondering.
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Oct 7, 2019 14:46
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Ethiser posted:So what was making the Titan bodies for Ymir? Was she outside of time making her own bodies? And if so does that mean she was always predestined to have Titan powers and free will doesn’t exist in Titan world? Zeke’s shown it’s possible to go to the source while still alive, so she probably has to go there and make a body while from human perspective it all happens instantly. You could also argue that since the source connects the past and the future that once she was there she was making her own bodies in the past. It’s kinda ironic that Eren’s whole goal is freedom from physical and societal boundaries and he’s locked in this weird pre-destination paradox. He probably already figures he’s screwed but in the end his friends and family get to be free (he also only has a handful of years left).
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Oct 7, 2019 15:09
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I like how King Fritz I "The Dipshit," didn't have any reason to think eating Ymir would do anything. He just thought, "aw crap my sex slave WMD died. Kids? EAT YOUR MOM." Also, could someone just explain to me what this means about "who is an Eldian" in the story's present day? Like, 2000 years ago it was just the name for some tribal kingdom or culture, and one of their slaves gets superpowers, and any blood descendant of hers can become a titan, and any titan who eats one of the 9 shifters becomes a shifter, who can control the transformation. So, in the modern era, Eldians are considered "Children of Ymir," and apparently all have the latent titan power. So, it stands to reason that by 2000 AY, everyone of the Eldian ethnicity/nation/whatever would have some direct descent from Ymir, getting her genes, or the genes of the alien spine symbiote or whatever. Gen 1 is Ymir, Gen 2 is Rose, Maria and Sheena, and Gen 3 onwards is their children, and children's children and so on so forth. So presumably, when Rose Maria and Sheena died, their ≥9 kids all ate them and got the Titan Shifter powers we have today. And then eventually, however long down the line, the holders of those powers would become aristocracy with every generation of each family having one kid designated to take one for the team and hold the power. But then how does the "Royal Family" and the Founding Titan fit into this? One Titan lets the user mind control anyone who's also a descendant of Ymir, and that would totally let you seize supreme political power. But then there's a "royal bloodline" that's different, and can't inherit the Founding Titan without being subsumed by its personality, and has some degree of control over titans even if they're the Beast Titan. Every descendant of Ymir is also a descendant of King "Fuckface" Fritz, so....did the grandkid who got the Founding power from eating whichever daughter their mom was just reserve the right to keep the Fritz dynastic name, and that somehow made them special? And since the (non-Fritz/Reiss) noblemen within the walls are so cagey about breeding with peasants, are they just not ethnically Eldian or Ymirian in any way, and invited in by Karl Fritz specifically so there'd be a few people immune to mind control and memory erasure? Same with the Ackermans and the small handful of Asians? tl;dr, if everyone who can be called an Eldian in present day has Ymir and Fritz blood, what makes the people identified as Royal (Zeke, Dina, the Reiss family) objectively "different" than other Eldians with a more advanced grasp on mind control, and shouting to turn people into titans, etc. Liquid Dinosaur fucked around with this message at 15:23 on Oct 7, 2019 |
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Oct 7, 2019 15:10
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Liquid Dinosaur posted:I like how King Fritz I "The Dipshit," didn't have any reason to think eating Ymir would do anything. He just thought, "aw crap my sex slave WMD died. Kids? EAT YOUR MOM." I assume that there was quite a bit of inbreeding involved for the royal line to make the bloodline "stronger", much like with royalty in real life.
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Oct 7, 2019 15:28
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Keep in mind that outside of drinking your predecessor the original 9 also manifest randomly when the host dies. The Ymir’s original titan could have just respawned in a descendant anywhere down the line, and once it did and the royal family caught wind of its power they kept tabs on it.
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Oct 7, 2019 15:39
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EvilTaytoMan posted:I assume that there was quite a bit of inbreeding involved for the royal line to make the bloodline "stronger", much like with royalty in real life. But what exactly is the "Royal Line?" The Founding Titan line, because of aforementioned mind control powers? And enough generations of people with the Founding Titan breeding can even manifest the scream power outside of titan form, or when using a Titan from a different family (Beast)? I forget it was stated, but I do assume that each Titan Shifter's family amassed great power and influence and would take great pains to keep the power within the family, and that it would very quickly stop being a thing you give to "slaves," except in the sense that the bearer of the power is a slave to their family's interests. I mean, by whatever era the cracked mural was made, the fact that Freida was a slave to a mundane Kor anything less than a ruling God-Queen with full agency was already forgotten.
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Oct 7, 2019 15:45
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TheHan posted:Keep in mind that outside of drinking your predecessor the original 9 also manifest randomly when the host dies. The Ymir’s original titan could have just respawned in a descendant anywhere down the line, and once it did and the royal family caught wind of its power they kept tabs on it. Okay. For some reason I couldn't consider the idea that as the Prime Titan, she wasn't some kind of 100% unique titan with all Nine being reflections of some part of her power set or temperment (like hell, Cart Titan makes a whole lot more sense considering the undignified poo poo she put up with). But I guess she could just be (mostly) Founding. Edit: Oh gently caress me I meant to paste that quote into my last post. Liquid Dinosaur fucked around with this message at 15:54 on Oct 7, 2019 |
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Oct 7, 2019 15:50
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Oh god, I just realized why Titans look the way they do. They're the sculpted version of a child's drawing of people. An extremely traumatized child.
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Oct 7, 2019 16:01
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Viridiant posted:Oh god, I just realized why Titans look the way they do. They're the sculpted version of a child's drawing of people. An extremely traumatized child. Humm that makes a lot of sense
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Oct 7, 2019 16:02
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Liquid Dinosaur posted:Okay. For some reason I couldn't consider the idea that as the Prime Titan, she wasn't some kind of 100% unique titan with all Nine being reflections of some part of her power set or temperment (like hell, Cart Titan makes a whole lot more sense considering the undignified poo poo she put up with). But I guess she could just be (mostly) Founding. I think in flashbacks the founding titan has been shown as being a step above the other 8, plus I don’t think it was in the most recent chapter with the other 8? But you could definitely tie them back to Ymir! Attack: Ymir wanting to be free, Eren pretty much says that’s why she made it Beast: As a slave from birth she’s been dehumanized. Armor: As the founding Titan Ymir was untouchable Collossal: She big Cart: What you said Warhammer: Besides the exo-rib cage the founding has that’s similar to the spears the warhammer makes, as someone else mentioned Ymir was killed by a spear Jaw: Ymir’s kids being forced to eat her remains Female: She...woman...
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Oct 7, 2019 16:19
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Liquid Dinosaur posted:But what exactly is the "Royal Line?" The Founding Titan line, because of aforementioned mind control powers? And enough generations of people with the Founding Titan breeding can even manifest the scream power outside of titan form, or when using a Titan from a different family (Beast)? I think the "Royal Line" is mystically what Ymir perceives to be the descendant family of rightful heirs to the Eldian crown. The only significance to the power is that she is enslaved to their will. There's probably a very limited number of branches that she'll recognize before it's considered too "diluted" or out of the contention for possible kings/queens. And maybe we're about to see what happens when she removes her fealty to that clan.
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Oct 7, 2019 16:23
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I always wondered what would happen if the "female type" was inherited by a man. Its the only titan with a fixed gender Also one of the reasons I think the fixed types were an afterthought. In the beginning it seemed like the titan would get its characteristics from the human holder: Armor looking like Reiner and being hard as he is; Colossal being tall like Berthold; Attack having the fury of Eren and Female having the looks, agility and gender of Annie Also I vaguely remember that in the that tower, when Ymir revelas herself, Berthold or Reiner commented with surprise that her titan was very fast or something like that, which doesnt make much sense considering they already knew the Jaws titan pretty well I think this is the only thing I noticed while rereading that indicates that Isayama changed his plans along the way Elias_Maluco fucked around with this message at 16:36 on Oct 7, 2019 |
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Oct 7, 2019 16:32
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Yeah the Ymir stuff has probably been planned since the beginning but the 9 shifters were probably added at some point after the wall titans reveal.
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Oct 7, 2019 16:40
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Kassad posted:That one's easy to explain away as a different cultural convention. Nah the map is mirrored not just rotated, so it doesn't work. Unless it's quote:hollow Earth theory 
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Oct 7, 2019 22:18
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Tekne posted:It vaguely reminds me of this. What's this from specifically?
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Oct 8, 2019 23:55
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ETURNA posted:What's this from specifically? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9-Z9Ssgb0Kg
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Oct 9, 2019 00:09
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Thanks! While I enjoyed this chapter, I honestly expected more detail concerning the origin of the titans.
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Oct 9, 2019 04:39
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TBH I think it's best not to try to overexplain the Titans. No explanation is really going to hold satisfying weight and just "it's a weird thing that happened" is enough for the story.
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Oct 9, 2019 04:42
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