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StashAugustine posted:i think it's possible he was trying to do a sorta radlib thing about how if you treat the poor badly they'll do stupid things like start a revolution maybe? idk havent seen it the thing is, the things the poor do isn't characterized as stupid by the film. it's presented in context as a totally normal and predictable response to the loss of social support structures and safety nets. the wealthy also aren't portrayed kindly or benevolently, they're shown to be completely detached autocrats that only care about the poor to the extent that they can leverage them to accomplish their own personal goals.
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Oct 7, 2019 16:49
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StashAugustine posted:i think it's possible he was trying to do a sorta radlib thing about how if you treat the poor badly they'll do stupid things like start a revolution maybe? idk havent seen it i don't think todd phillips is a leftist, or that joker is a leftist movie. its just that he uses all this anti-capitalist and revolutionary imagery and never managed to put in the typical stuff for the normies that would make it seem bad. at the end where the clown-masked rioters are smashing cops and their cars, stealing poo poo and setting storefronts on fire its depicted as pretty great. and when one of them kills the waynes AGAIN you don't really feel bad because there was no attempt made to make them seem sympathetic
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Oct 7, 2019 16:53
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i wouldn't read too much into Todd Philips's comments about people gnashing their teeth about Joker as being "far left." it's still pretty common for people to conflate radical-sounding words with actual radical beliefs, which checkies tend to not have
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Oct 7, 2019 16:57
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Serf posted:and when one of them kills the waynes AGAIN you don't really feel bad because there was no attempt made to make them seem sympathetic if anything, the inclusion of batman lore in this specific case undermines a more vicious "eat the rich" reading of the film the mayor and his wife getting capped in an alley while their assailant screams "you get what's coming to you!" while the rest of the city is on fire, is a pretty obvious support for revolutionary violence batman's mom and dad getting killed in the same circumstance transforms it into "welp, we know batman's parents have to die for him to become batman, so i guess this is just this movie's way of checking off that particular plot point"
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Oct 7, 2019 17:02
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Serf posted:i'm just trying to reconcile that being in the movie with his dumbass comments about how the far left is responsible for the backlash (that led to it having a record-breaking opening weekend lol) Americans don't really understand the political spectrum, so it's just as likely he thinks the "far left" are liberal moral scolds, and doesn't get what socialism is.
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Oct 7, 2019 17:16
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Freaking Crumbum posted:if anything, the inclusion of batman lore in this specific case undermines a more vicious "eat the rich" reading of the film yeah but he was running for mayor and he was a huge rear end in a top hat on tv who said that poor people are poor because they're lazy Pener Kropoopkin posted:Americans don't really understand the political spectrum, so it's just as likely he thinks the "far left" are liberal moral scolds, and doesn't get what socialism is. exactly
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Oct 7, 2019 17:48
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to be honest I don’t think it’s that deep, a lot of people will give you a generic rich people bad but when you ask them if things should change they just shrug and say nah
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Oct 7, 2019 19:36
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CharlestheHammer posted:to be honest I don’t think it’s that deep, a lot of people will give you a generic rich people bad but when you ask them if things should change they just shrug and say nah depth is overrated
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Oct 7, 2019 19:43
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StashAugustine posted:i think it's possible he was trying to do a sorta radlib thing about how if you treat the poor badly they'll do stupid things like start a revolution maybe? idk havent seen it p much. "give the poor some concessions or they will literally tear you apart like wild animals" has been a cornerstone of liberal thought since the french revolution
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Oct 7, 2019 19:44
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Farm Frenzy posted:is it like a fight club type situation where the director might've meant one thing but the actual filmmakign suggests something else? wait, am I supposed to think toxic masculinity is good
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Oct 7, 2019 19:58
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i wanna say that nobody's gonna remember Joker in a month except for comic book nerds so who cares, but that's a group that includes this forum, so go nuts
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Oct 7, 2019 20:08
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I mean realistically what does it matter whether something is remembered or not. Most movies aren’t terribly memorable, even good ones
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Oct 7, 2019 20:19
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yeah its the pop culture thread. all the stuff we discuss is transitory
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Oct 7, 2019 20:21
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someone brought up Zootopia in the bad thread and it reminded me of something that bothered me. I've only seen it once so maybe I missed something or am misremembering, but the whole "predators vs. prey" framing they use to discuss racism really bothered me, because the predators are meant to be seen as a mistreated underclass that have to suppress their inborn primal urges lest they hurt the innocent non-predators around them this doesn't work as an analogy for a thousand obvious reasons imo and I really loving hated it
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Oct 7, 2019 20:26
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all that has nothing on the original version they scrapped for being too dark https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EK7Br9p2f-Q
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Oct 7, 2019 20:42
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good, because that’s unabashedly more of a furry fandom type worldbuilding beat than anything the film actually ended up doing
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Oct 7, 2019 20:56
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joker is an exquisitely photographed, wonderfully acted, perfectly adequate psychological thriller. the endingnsucks for the reasons mentioned, all the subtext becomes plain text because studios have decided everyone is a moron these days and they need everything explaining to them. it's a solid 6.5/10.
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Oct 7, 2019 21:05
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Nobody is gonna care about zootopia after Beastars is finished
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Oct 7, 2019 21:07
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Farm Frenzy posted:there were a few movies a few years ago that transparently pandered to chinese people like independence day 2 but i dont think they worked that well so they gave up The Meg also fod this to a hilarious degree
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Oct 7, 2019 21:11
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What did you guys think about the South Park episode about this very subject? I thought it was OK, but Parker and Stone are libertarians who are rich enough to not face reprocussions. The episode did get South Park "banned" in China, but it's not like they will give a poo poo.
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Oct 7, 2019 22:11
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What`s next for the joker as a character? How much darker can you seriously go before he`s just another domestic terrorist gunning down children? That`s not very entertaining that`s just the evening news. DC should go full camp except for Batman who shoul still be the sourfaced angry grim loner from the Nolan movies but also the explicit bad guy. He no longer makes sense a hero. Make the Joker is just a dude that likes to play elaborate pratical jokes on the rich and powerful but no one ever gets hurt. Eventually Batman arrests him with extreme and excessive force. Make the penguin a flamboyent gay businessman with corrupt politicans in his pocket and have Batman single handedly ruins Gotham pride day and cause a homophobic riot just to violently arrest him in public and so on with the other villains.
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Oct 7, 2019 22:54
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Harley Quinn once blew up a buss full of children, been there,done that.
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Oct 7, 2019 22:57
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i haven't seen joker because i'm broke but from the plot synopsis itt i give it 5 bags of popcorn and bat balloon animal for being a twisted take on the batman movies
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Oct 7, 2019 22:59
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Baudolino posted:What`s next for the joker as a character? How much darker can you seriously go before he`s just another domestic terrorist gunning down children? That`s not very entertaining that`s just the evening news. this was the worst joker because phoenix wasn't allowed to be the joker (except for like 3 minutes at the very end of the film). phoenix is "arthur fleck" for the majority of the run-time and it's another reason why it doesn't make sense to even act like it's telling a story about the same character as batman's nemesis IMO the movie should have started right around the time he manages to defeat the two cops on the subway and then gone from there. let it open with him accomplishing complete anarchy in gotham and then explore what he does with it and let him have fun being a scenery chewing bad guy. phoenix has to play this psychologically damaged person that has been abused and mistreated his whole life, and hopefully that wins him an oscar or whatever, but it didn't look very fun to play and it sure as poo poo wasn't fun to watch. also it's heavily implied that he kills one child right towards the end, so they're already crossed that bridge with this film. edit: the thing i preferred about ledger's joker (even over nicholson's) was that they didn't even bother to give ledger a backstory. it doesn't matter for the joker to be an effective villain (and IMO giving him relatable, sympathetic motivations completely undermines what kind of villain he's supposed to represent). just let him be a deranged mad man with plans and ambitions that only kind of make sense to logical scrutiny and then turn him loose against the symbolic manifestation of fascist jackboots Freaking Crumbum has issued a correction as of 23:18 on Oct 7, 2019 |
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Oct 7, 2019 23:15
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Baudolino posted:DC should go full camp except for Batman who shoul still be the sourfaced angry grim loner from the Nolan movies but also the explicit bad guy. He no longer makes sense a hero. Make the Joker is just a dude that likes to play elaborate pratical jokes on the rich and powerful but no one ever gets hurt. Eventually Batman arrests him with extreme and excessive force. this was pretty much Batman: White Knight which explicitly tries to position Joker as a leftist hero after Batman beats him half to death after some harmless radikewl skateboarding shenanigans (yes the Joker shreds in this Elseworld story). It’s also not good and is ruined by assuaging to police and good billionaires.
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Oct 8, 2019 00:11
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Freaking Crumbum posted:this was the worst joker because phoenix wasn't allowed to be the joker (except for like 3 minutes at the very end of the film). phoenix is "arthur fleck" for the majority of the run-time and it's another reason why it doesn't make sense to even act like it's telling a story about the same character as batman's nemesis Someone on here made the argument that the next modern timeline movie with the joker should treat this, suicide squad, and dark Knight as equally true, do the whole multiple choice history thing like killing joke and it's not a terrible idea
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Oct 8, 2019 00:23
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Dr. Killjoy posted:this was pretty much Batman: White Knight which explicitly tries to position Joker as a leftist hero after Batman beats him half to death after some harmless radikewl skateboarding shenanigans (yes the Joker shreds in this Elseworld story). It’s also not good and is ruined by assuaging to police and good billionaires. Ehhhhhhhhhhhhh the end of the story is Batman being like yeah actually this is all loving bullshit and a failure and the person who did the most good for this city was the man who turned into a killer clown and was being manipulated by his ex
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Oct 8, 2019 00:24
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The part where joker as jack Napier runs for mayor on "Batman is a gently caress and the cops enable him and the poor foot the bill" fuckin rippppppped
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Oct 8, 2019 00:25
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if they want to do more joke, i say go back to camp or whatever. i'm pretty well done with grim and gritty, marvel has the serious with jokes stuff covered. gimme goofy cartoon poo poo
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Oct 8, 2019 00:29
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oh yeah I forgot the bits of it that were fanboy pandering like there being two Harley Quinns, the "real" original one and a "fake" bimbo who's modeled on her current design. And all the tedious BTAS references!
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Oct 8, 2019 00:34
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Dr. Killjoy posted:oh yeah I forgot the bits of it that were fanboy pandering like there being two Harley Quinns, the "real" original one and a "fake" bimbo who's modeled on her current design. And all the tedious BTAS references! i liked the harely thing because i fuckin loathe modern harley and how everything downplays the absolutely horrific nature of her relationship with joker, so "actually harely left and hes just too fuckin crazy to realize he kidnapped some other girl" worked for me
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Oct 8, 2019 01:27
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Serf posted:if they want to do more joke, i say go back to camp or whatever. i'm pretty well done with grim and gritty, marvel has the serious with jokes stuff covered. gimme goofy cartoon poo poo Teen Titans Go had a big screen movie.
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Oct 8, 2019 01:40
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It's funny that Hollywood decided we needed a new Joker when Trump is the most Jack Nicholson Joker of all time. We're living in the Burton Batman films, better distract from that!
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Oct 8, 2019 02:50
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i bet tim and eric could make the best batman film of all time
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Oct 8, 2019 03:03
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Freaking Crumbum posted:also batman is an extremely anachronistic relic of the decade(s) in which he was conceived and he translates increasingly poorly as time moves forward and people become more sophisticated about concepts like wealth inequality and how that directly correlates with crime among people that become disenfranchised. IMO batman as a character shouldn't be presented in any media that is supposed to happen after the 1930s or so Batman was created in 1939, which was a time when socialist and communist movements were far stronger than they are today. I don't think blaming the time period of the character's creation is the reason the character sucks in a lot of stuff. The 1970s O'Neil/Adams runs, 1980s Frank Miller run, and The Killing Joke probably cemented Batman being a monster. They combined a higher quality product with a "serious" tone. It's been a while since I read them, so they may be more nuanced than I really remember. They definitely had trash imitators and successors that basically just reproduced straight fash Batman stories though. Before all that he was a goofy rich guy fighting goofy villains.
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Oct 8, 2019 03:06
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i would never trust a billionaire that hangs out with underage boys
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Oct 8, 2019 03:13
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Percelus posted:i would never trust a billionaire
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Oct 8, 2019 03:22
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Serf posted:if they want to do more joke, i say go back to camp or whatever. i'm pretty well done with grim and gritty, marvel has the serious with jokes stuff covered. gimme goofy cartoon poo poo go back and watch the batman movies between Burton and Nolan, then I think Batman Forever even makes an adam west-era "holy rustbuckets, batman!" joke https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YkTHtWX7CCY&t=21s
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Oct 8, 2019 03:40
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i'm watching dragon ball and this show is one sex joke after another. every episode seems to find more indignities to heap onto poor bulma jesus christ
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Oct 8, 2019 04:34
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Atrocious Joe posted:Batman was created in 1939, which was a time when socialist and communist movements were far stronger than they are today. I don't think blaming the time period of the character's creation is the reason the character sucks in a lot of stuff. yeah, but batman wasn't created as some kind of socialist or communist themed hero who fought for the common good of the proletariat by waging war against their capitalist oppressors. he was always a vigilante that beat up "criminals" out of some misguided desire to make the city safer. the thing is, there wasn't as much social savvy back then about the whole idea that criminals tend to be disproportionately represented by members of the lower classes (and often statistically biased heavily towards minorities / POC) and that by only ever assaulting petty criminals, batman was low-key beating up colored poors for his jollies. it also failed to ever examine the more complex elements of crime, like what social conditions were creating so many criminals in the first place or how bruce wayne just being a millionaire / billionaire playboy meant that his own existence was enabled by the same economic systems that caused the disenfranchised to turn to crime batman maybe became an out and proud fascist after miller got his turn at the wheel, but batman was a monster for his entire existence. maybe at first just because of a general naivety about what causes someone to commit a criminal act and/or a lack of intellectual curiosity to explore the idea of crime beyond the immediate superficial definition (why is it happening, what's causing people to make these choices, etc.) which is why, for me, batman as a character only works in an era where it's assumed there's less sophistication about income inequality and wealth stratification and etc. trying to paint a billionaire as the unambiguous hero and good guy of the story because he leverages his vast resources to create a variety of extravagant gadgets by which he can brutalize criminals (which are almost exclusively people from the bottom of the socioeconomic ladder) is laughably tone deaf in TYOOL 2019. until he crashes through the window of a goldman sachs boardroom during their quarterly shareholder earnings call and kicks the poo poo out of a bunch of wealthy assholes, he's going to be an increasingly antiquated and embarrassing super hero
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Oct 8, 2019 05:40
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