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Henrik Zetterberg
Dec 7, 2007

Guys, there is 0% chance they make the Children look like the drat KKK on tv. Come on.

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Cicero
Dec 17, 2003

Jumpjet, melta, jumpjet. Repeat for ten minutes or until victory is assured.
Assassin's Creed games had the protagonist in a distinctive white hood and nobody gave a poo poo. I'm sure they'll figure something out.

Apparatchik Magnet
Sep 25, 2019

by Jeffrey of YOSPOS

The Lord Bude posted:

Whitecloaks are worse. The Seanchan are an awful, twisted culture, albeit not without similarities to real world historical societies, but the Whitecloaks hit closer to home - They are essentially a stand in for the Christian fundamentalists that are a very real, very ugly threat that we can see existing around us in the world today. They represent hatred, intolerance and bigotry in a way that none of the other antagonists do; and that has a stronger impact than traditional 'fantasy villain' archetypes.

What weird land do you live in where Christian fundamentalists are a real threat? I confess I don't understand the point of reading fantasy when you're living one.

Rosalie_A
Oct 30, 2011

Apparatchik Magnet posted:

What weird land do you live in where Christian fundamentalists are a real threat? I confess I don't understand the point of reading fantasy when you're living one.

Well, there's that obscure hellhole known as the USA...

The Glumslinger
Sep 24, 2008

Coach Nagy, you want me to throw to WHAT side of the field?


Hair Elf

Henrik Zetterberg posted:

Guys, there is 0% chance they make the Children look like the drat KKK on tv. Come on.

It would certainly make Galad a shitload more problematic

ConfusedUs
Feb 24, 2004

Bees?
You want fucking bees?
Here you go!
ROLL INITIATIVE!!





Apparatchik Magnet posted:

What weird land do you live in where Christian fundamentalists are a real threat? I confess I don't understand the point of reading fantasy when you're living one.

America?

Apparatchik Magnet
Sep 25, 2019

by Jeffrey of YOSPOS

Trasson posted:

Well, there's that obscure hellhole known as the USA...

What threat do "Christian fundamentalists" pose there?

DarkHorse
Dec 13, 2006

Vroom Vroom, BEEP BEEP!
Nap Ghost

Apparatchik Magnet posted:

What threat do "Christian fundamentalists" pose there?

*gestures vaguely at, well, everything*

We're about one court case away from losing abortion rights, there have already been rulings protecting homophobia and transphobia, several sects have been implicated in covering up pedophilia and using the shelter of the cloth to avoid investigations, and many churches are now openly using themselves as political action centers despite their tax exempt status

aparmenideanmonad
Jan 28, 2004
Balls to you and your way of mortal opinions - you don't exist anyway!
Fun Shoe

Henrik Zetterberg posted:

Guys, there is 0% chance they make the Children look like the drat KKK on tv. Come on.
I'm not saying they'll put them in robes and capirotes, and I never mentioned the KKK in my post. If anything, the last half page proves my point, which is that the Children are going to be even scarier in the show than they were in the books because comparisons to real world hate groups and attitudes towards immigrants and brown/black people are inescapable. I'm pretty sure Europeans are more familiar with the atrocities associated with the Crusades than Americans, and they all know about Nazis if nothing else. The casting of the Two Rivers kids (which I wholeheartedly support) and the visual impact of the format is going to make this more blatant than the books regardless of how the whitecloaks are dressed.

The Lord Bude posted:

Whitecloaks are worse. The Seanchan are an awful, twisted culture, albeit not without similarities to real world historical societies, but the Whitecloaks hit closer to home - They are essentially a stand in for the Christian fundamentalists that are a very real, very ugly threat that we can see existing around us in the world today. They represent hatred, intolerance and bigotry in a way that none of the other antagonists do; and that has a stronger impact than traditional 'fantasy villain' archetypes.
And I think the Seanchan are worse in that they embrace slavery and a caste system, but then gloss it with humane treatment of "normal people", including outsiders, in the name of "functioning capitalism" in really pernicious ways. You'll be happier once you let them take you over, really! At least 60% of you will have much happier lives!

The Children's ideals are only problematic in the sense that any unflinching moral fundamentalism is problematic in the hands of human practitioners - it's always going to end up subservient to convenience, power, and political agendas. That said, they're also less likely to ever be mainstream and evolve an empire, which is a big part of why I think the Seanchan are worse.

Sab669
Sep 24, 2009

aparmenideanmonad posted:

I'm not saying they'll put them in robes and capirotes, and I never mentioned the KKK in my post.

Oh come on dude. There is exactly 1 group you were referring to by saying "they're a bunch of white dudes in white hoods torturing black and brown kids they found in the woods as darkfriends."

aparmenideanmonad posted:

And I think the Seanchan are worse in that they embrace slavery and a caste system, but then gloss it with humane treatment of "normal people", including outsiders, in the name of "functioning capitalism" in really pernicious ways. You'll be happier once you let them take you over, really! At least 60% of you will have much happier lives!

The Children's ideals are only problematic in the sense that any unflinching moral fundamentalism is problematic in the hands of human practitioners - it's always going to end up subservient to convenience, power, and political agendas. That said, they're also less likely to ever be mainstream and evolve an empire, which is a big part of why I think the Seanchan are worse.

I do agree though that the Seanchan are way worse due to the hypocritical bullshit with the Damane/Sul'Dam nonsense. The CoL -- like the KKK -- are just a bunch of loving idiots who think anything different than what they value will ruin society. What book was it where Perrin saved the Two Rivers and those dumbfucks are just like "No, he only killed all those Trollocs to make us THINK he's not a darkfriend!!" augh it makes me angry just thinking about how goddamn dumb they are lol

aparmenideanmonad
Jan 28, 2004
Balls to you and your way of mortal opinions - you don't exist anyway!
Fun Shoe

Sab669 posted:

Oh come on dude. There is exactly 1 group you were referring to by saying "they're a bunch of white dudes in white hoods torturing black and brown kids they found in the woods as darkfriends."
For sure - I just think it's going to be equally obvious if not more so on the tee vee, hoods or no hoods.

Democratic Pirate
Feb 17, 2010

Have they announced casting for Galad, the most handsome man in all the land?

The Glumslinger
Sep 24, 2008

Coach Nagy, you want me to throw to WHAT side of the field?


Hair Elf

Democratic Pirate posted:

Have they announced casting for Galad, the most handsome man in all the land?

I think they're waiting on Amazon to finish its time machine so they can go steal Cary Elwes from the set of The Princess Bride

The Lord Bude
May 23, 2007

ASK ME ABOUT MY SHITTY, BOUGIE INTERIOR DECORATING ADVICE

Apparatchik Magnet posted:

What weird land do you live in where Christian fundamentalists are a real threat? I confess I don't understand the point of reading fantasy when you're living one.

They're a threat in every country. They may not be wandering around in armies - the damage they do in the real world is far more subtle than that - but look at what is happening in US politics, amongst other places. Here in Australia the extreme religious right has spent decades infiltrating politics, and it's now bearing fruit - our Prime Minister is a fundie and his agenda is terrifying. Look at the rampant abuse in religious institutions. Organised Religion is a disease that's killing the world.

The Seanchan might be 'worse' in the sense of assigning some sort of numerical badness score to their actions, but the whitecloaks are more impactful, because giant slave empires no longer exist in the real world, but groups with similarities to the whitecloaks do.

Also again - a white cloak/hood does not automatically equal KKK. I own a white hoodie - nobody thinks I'm a member of the KKK when I wear it. KKK hood is a very distinctive garment that bears no resemblance to the sort of hood a whitecloak would be depicted wearing.

The Lord Bude fucked around with this message at 03:42 on Oct 8, 2019

Hieronymous Alloy
Jan 30, 2009


Why! Why!! Why must you refuse to accept that Dr. Hieronymous Alloy's Genetically Enhanced Cream Corn Is Superior to the Leading Brand on the Market!?!




Morbid Hound

aparmenideanmonad posted:

I'm not saying they'll put them in robes and capirotes, and I never mentioned the KKK in my post. If anything, the last half page proves my point, which is that the Children are going to be even scarier in the show than they were in the books because comparisons to real world hate groups and attitudes towards immigrants and brown/black people are inescapable. I'm pretty sure Europeans are more familiar with the atrocities associated with the Crusades than Americans, and they all know about Nazis if nothing else. The casting of the Two Rivers kids (which I wholeheartedly support) and the visual impact of the format is going to make this more blatant than the books regardless of how the whitecloaks are dressed.

The casting of the two rivers kids is gonna put a really interesting spin on things yeah. Not just the whitecloaks, but also things like Nynaeve being so angry all the time, or Perrin being so extra careful not to frighten people

It's sortof strange but I feel that groups like the Children are an under-utilized trope in fantasy fiction. Of course if you have a black and white world with real magic and religion some folks are gonna go crazy with it.

Hieronymous Alloy fucked around with this message at 05:56 on Oct 8, 2019

Atlas Hugged
Mar 12, 2007


Put your arms around me,
fiddly digits, itchy britches
I love you all
I find Bornhald the Elder more terrifying than Byar. Byar is bad but it's almost comical because he's just so obviously evil and corrupt. Bornhald has really good reasons for everything he does and his thinking is quite logical. Why on earth would two country bumpkins know about Shadar Logoth and the physical features of Trollocs? Bornhald is the classic example of the kool-aid drinking sycophant who genuinely believes they're doing the right thing for the right reasons even as they have you tortured.

As an American, this strikes really close to home for me as I've met a lot of people like this and a lot of my high school friends have turned into these guys as they've gotten married and had kids. Guys I used to drink beer in the cornfield with when we were in high school are all fire and brimstone and demanding that we round up immigrants and ban Islam for the good America. But they genuinely love their families and think this will make America a better place. They'll calmly explain to you why abortion is murder and providing healthcare for poor people is evil. It's the same type of logic as Bornhald explaining why Perrin and Egwene are clearly darkfriends, citing such perfect logic as "wolves are in league with the devil".

If you just accept these things as fact, then they do follow logically. And you can't argue with their facts since the very foundations of their worldview are different than yours and reality.

Inspector 34
Mar 9, 2009

DOES NOT RESPECT THE RUN

BUT THEY WILL
Yeah that was the scariest part about the COL to me too. The "good ones" have rational thought behind their abuses and genuinely believe they're trying to prevent the world from going to hell. The "bad ones" do basically the same poo poo just because they can, but they've got all this rhetoric (and an army) to back them up when they feel like kicking someone's rear end.

BTW, I'm really glad this thread is here! I started reading WOT when I first found the previous book thread and was kind of following along with it for a while but by the time I had anything to contribute it had been closed. I'm about a quarter of the way through book 9 on my reread now.

Inspector 34 fucked around with this message at 00:14 on Oct 9, 2019

Sab669
Sep 24, 2009

The Sanderson thread had been the unofficial WoT thread for... I don't know how many books I got through until enough people got sick of us discussing it :v:

mewse
May 2, 2006

Inspector 34 posted:

BTW, I'm really glad this thread is here! I started reading WOT when I first found the previous book thread and was kind of following along with it for a while but by the time I had anything to contribute it had been closed. I'm about a quarter of the way through book 9 on my reread now.

Sab669 posted:

The Sanderson thread had been the unofficial WoT thread for... I don't know how many books I got through until enough people got sick of us discussing it :v:

People need to adopt the be bold principle from wikipedia and :justpost: more threads.

Hieronymous Alloy
Jan 30, 2009


Why! Why!! Why must you refuse to accept that Dr. Hieronymous Alloy's Genetically Enhanced Cream Corn Is Superior to the Leading Brand on the Market!?!




Morbid Hound
There is, of course, a new Robert Jordan novel coming out soon.




https://www.tor.com/2019/10/08/robert-jordans-warrior-of-the-altaii-non-spoiler-review/

Atlas Hugged
Mar 12, 2007


Put your arms around me,
fiddly digits, itchy britches
I love you all
That's intriguing. It's a bit ghoulish, but at least it wasn't pieced together from notes and was a complete product well before he died.

Yavuz
Oct 9, 2019
If nothing else, I'm glad that this isn't a movie series, because I doubt that they could cram even one of the books into ~2 hours. Well, maybe New Spring.

The Lord Bude
May 23, 2007

ASK ME ABOUT MY SHITTY, BOUGIE INTERIOR DECORATING ADVICE

Atlas Hugged posted:

That's intriguing. It's a bit ghoulish, but at least it wasn't pieced together from notes and was a complete product well before he died.

Actually It's Robert Jordan's previously unpublished first novel. He finished it in 1977 but was unable to get anyone to publish it.

Atlas Hugged
Mar 12, 2007


Put your arms around me,
fiddly digits, itchy britches
I love you all

The Lord Bude posted:

Actually It's Robert Jordan's previously unpublished first novel. He finished it in 1977 but was unable to get anyone to publish it.

Yes I am aware. It's a bit ghoulish that they're cashing in on his unpublished work despite him being very dead. It's a complete manuscript that was sold in 1977 and hence a complete product well before he died.

The Lord Bude
May 23, 2007

ASK ME ABOUT MY SHITTY, BOUGIE INTERIOR DECORATING ADVICE
Ah I see what you mean now. I agree it is kinda ghoulish. There must be a reason he never tried to get it published again after he became a big deal.

Apparatchik Magnet
Sep 25, 2019

by Jeffrey of YOSPOS

Inspector 34 posted:

BTW, I'm really glad this thread is here! I started reading WOT when I first found the previous book thread and was kind of following along with it for a while but by the time I had anything to contribute it had been closed. I'm about a quarter of the way through book 9 on my reread now.

Just LOL if you aren’t a named contributor in an early version (say the first four or six books) rec.arts.sf.written.robert-jordan FAQ.

Atlas Hugged
Mar 12, 2007


Put your arms around me,
fiddly digits, itchy britches
I love you all

The Lord Bude posted:

Ah I see what you mean now. I agree it is kinda ghoulish. There must be a reason he never tried to get it published again after he became a big deal.

Could be any number of reasons really. Brandon Sanderson is a good window into this sort of thing since he's very transparent about his own development as a writer. Elantris was his first published, but not first written, novel. He has a blog post about all of his early unpublished books and talks about how any one of them could have become good enough to publish, but only Elantris got picked up. The others had good ideas, but needed a lot of work. He ended up taking bits and pieces of them and reusing them in other books and series (Warbreaker, Way of Kings) and so it might not make any sense to publish them.

I assume this is the same. The review linked above mentions that this book is really interesting for fans of Wheel of Time. I am guessing it has some elements that would eventually make it into that series and would therefore make it redundant to publish in his lifetime. Now it's a curiosity and it's been long enough since there was a book put out with his name on it that that alone will catch the attention of readers. I will likely pick it up just to see what the Wheel of Time links are.

Comrade Blyatlov
Aug 4, 2007


should have picked four fingers





I'm rereading and I never really noticed how carefully planned every attack on rand is. It just never occurred to me that they weren't trying to kill him, but to make him despair.

It was incredibly well done. I'm at A Crown of Swords and dude is like full on insane already, but he hasnt gone full evil yet.

Torrannor
Apr 27, 2013

---FAGNER---
TEAM-MATE
His descent into madness is so well written imo. I remember being really spooked when Taim gave him one of the Seals, and suddenly Rand is holding it over his head, ready to smash it to pieces, while Lews Therin is chanting in his head "Break it break them all must break them must must must break them all and strike must strike quickly must strike now break it break it break it..." And Rand himself is muttering to himself "Must break it now break them all break it break it break it.", with the only thing stopping him from throwing the Seal down on the floor being Bashere holding his arms. It was such a shock, the first time I realized that he's going insane, and getting worse with each book. There was some weirdness in his behavior in book 2 already, but this event really hit home for me how he's descending into madness.

Comrade Blyatlov
Aug 4, 2007


should have picked four fingers





Yeah, I remember that too.

And the Taimandred theory is hilariously wrong in hindsight. One of the other Forsaken thinks "events in the south had Demandred's mark all over them - he preferred working through proxies."
It seems clear as day he recruited Taim and stood back to watch, and the Dark One was super pleased because Dumai's Wells was about as chaos-making as could have been possible.

Knowing what the endgame of it all was, it's incredible how carefully placed the plans were.

Comrade Blyatlov
Aug 4, 2007


should have picked four fingers





Its also kinda funny how despite Lews Therin being insane, most of his babbling is actually fairly accurate. Look at all his warnings about the Asha'man and Taim, for example, and even breaking the seals - he wasnt wrong, just ahead of time.

Rand is PTSD as gently caress and knows his own death lies at the end of the road too. It's just so goddamn well done.

RC Cola
Aug 1, 2011

Dovie'andi se tovya sagain
Rand madness is better every reread. Same with character relationships. Like how important certain Aes Sedai or Sea Folk or Aiel are. Or knowing how the Seanchan society is structured. Knowing the history of the world helps.
For you other nerds, have any of you read "The World of the Wheel of Time?"
It came out around or right after a Crown of Swords came out. It has alot of information on the history of the world, maps of the 10 nations and pre Artur Hawkwing. Age of legends information, the story of the war of power. It's fantastic.

Ps if some of you didn't know, be on the lookout for real world references in the wheel of time.

I love this series so much. Now my wife can finally know of this wonderful world without hearing me ramble incoherently after rereading a book.

Sab669
Sep 24, 2009

Torrannor posted:

His descent into madness is so well written imo. I remember being really spooked when Taim gave him one of the Seals, and suddenly Rand is holding it over his head, ready to smash it to pieces, while Lews Therin is chanting in his head "Break it break them all must break them must must must break them all and strike must strike quickly must strike now break it break it break it..." And Rand himself is muttering to himself "Must break it now break them all break it break it break it.", with the only thing stopping him from throwing the Seal down on the floor being Bashere holding his arms. It was such a shock, the first time I realized that he's going insane, and getting worse with each book. There was some weirdness in his behavior in book 2 already, but this event really hit home for me how he's descending into madness.

That was for sure one of the most memorable individual moments of the series for me.

Hieronymous Alloy
Jan 30, 2009


Why! Why!! Why must you refuse to accept that Dr. Hieronymous Alloy's Genetically Enhanced Cream Corn Is Superior to the Leading Brand on the Market!?!




Morbid Hound

RC Cola posted:

Rand madness is better every reread.

It's especially interesting because there are multiple "tracks" to it -- Rand's both going normally crazy from PTSD at all the poo poo he's going through, and also going magic crazy from the Taint and Lews Therin and so forth. Just in terms of writing mechanics it's probably the most interesting thing about WoT and I'm not sure how well it will translate to the screen.

anyway

https://twitter.com/dleisegang/status/1179801913149272067

The Lord Bude
May 23, 2007

ASK ME ABOUT MY SHITTY, BOUGIE INTERIOR DECORATING ADVICE
I hope the tv show keeps *all* the spanking.

Sab669
Sep 24, 2009

If the amount of nudity in Carnival Row is anything to go off of, Amazon definitely will :stare:

Mat Cauthon
Jan 2, 2006

The more tragic things get,
the more I feel like laughing.



It was always a nice touch that, even from the beginning of the series, the way Rand's madness is expressed or how we're made aware of it's progress is always there in subtle ways. In Book 4 he uses Callandor during the Darkspawn attack on the Stone of Tear and then tries to resurrect someone in the wake of the battle - horrible and insane, but morally consistent with how both Rand and LTT think. It's just that Callandor is exacerbating the taint's effect. At the end of Book 4 he acquires the "Buddha" statue angreal and channels through it almost exclusively no matter how large or small the task, which seems to shield him somewhat from the taint. His fervor in attempting (and failing) to find it after Dumai's Wells shows that on some level he was aware of that as well (maybe knowledge from LTT?).

Of course he's still extremely hosed up just from what's happening to him and what's expected of him as a person, but the way RJ weaved those elements into the story without them being too overt or out of place was extremely well done.

Spek
Jun 15, 2012

Bagel!
It'll be very interesting to see if the actor for Rand can manage the simultaneous and slow transformations between country bumpkin -> confident ruler and sane->mad and then come full circle with Rand Sedai at the end.

A friend of mine started her first read a while back and asked me "Where was Alviarin when the rebel Aes Sedai travelled to Tar Valon?" and I realized I had no idea. My attempts to google it turned up nothing. We know she was missing and that Elaida recaptured much of her political power because of it and stripped her of the keeper's staff on her return but I cant find any info on what she was up to. I think there were some hints she was at Tremalking(unless that was a previous outing?) but no hints at all as to why or what she was doing. Anyone have any ideas?

Henrik Zetterberg
Dec 7, 2007


There’s a guy floating across the river and a trolloc in the second pic.

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Atlas Hugged
Mar 12, 2007


Put your arms around me,
fiddly digits, itchy britches
I love you all

RC Cola posted:

Rand madness is better every reread. Same with character relationships. Like how important certain Aes Sedai or Sea Folk or Aiel are. Or knowing how the Seanchan society is structured. Knowing the history of the world helps.
For you other nerds, have any of you read "The World of the Wheel of Time?"
It came out around or right after a Crown of Swords came out. It has alot of information on the history of the world, maps of the 10 nations and pre Artur Hawkwing. Age of legends information, the story of the war of power. It's fantastic.

Ps if some of you didn't know, be on the lookout for real world references in the wheel of time.

I love this series so much. Now my wife can finally know of this wonderful world without hearing me ramble incoherently after rereading a book.

The Big Book of Bad Art.

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