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I wonder why he used it so much. You’d think an editor would be like, Hey only one or two braid pulls a book please.
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Oct 19, 2019 18:38
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Invalid Validation posted:I wonder why he used it so much. You’d think an editor would be like, Hey only one or two braid pulls a book please. He was married to his editor.
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Oct 19, 2019 18:58
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Invalid Validation posted:I wonder why he used it so much. You’d think an editor would be like, Hey only one or two braid pulls a book please. I figured he was trying to do a rosy-fingered Dawn sort of thing, like crossing your arms beneath your breasts. Though that doesn't quite explain why in book 5 everyone suddenly becomes obsessed with drinking punch. He mentions punch like every 3 pages
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Oct 19, 2019 19:20
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Basileus777 posted:He was
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Oct 19, 2019 19:32
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Unfortunately a lack of emotion is a platonic ideal so that poo poo is used rather than interesting character rhetoric or poise or w/e literary thing. I'm hoping they just ignore the braid pulling and skirt smoothing and have the actors use overt facial expressions.
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Oct 19, 2019 20:38
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Basileus777 posted:He was married to his editor. She was his primary beta reader, not his editor. I'm sure he had an actual editor (if not more than one) at his publisher but no editor is going to tell a NYT best selling author "hey cut out all this superfluous poo poo". They did the best they could.
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Oct 19, 2019 20:59
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His wife *was* an editor at Tor Books -- also the editor for Ender's Game -- but I think she did more actual editing on the earlier books than the later ones.
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Oct 19, 2019 21:02
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I mean, when you're a publishing editor your job is probably more about editing books so they sell well and make money rather than striving for the most perfect piece of literature. When the author can write whatever he wants and its going #1 regardless then just let him do it.
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Oct 19, 2019 21:37
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I'm still rereading and the moment where Egwene takes command of the Hall rules Also someone mentioned the outdated gender politics might stand in the shows way - come on, seriously? GOT had marriage night rape and that sure was a big flop!
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Oct 19, 2019 22:20
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Wheel of Time is very gender retro for the written fantasy genre right now but it's disturbingly progressive for fantasy television shows that aren't Xena
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Oct 19, 2019 22:31
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Yea I don’t see it as all that bad, most of the main powerful characters are women even if Mr Dragon himself has to save every woman cause he’s a big strong man.
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Oct 19, 2019 22:53
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Invalid Validation posted:Yea I don’t see it as all that bad, most of the main powerful characters are women even if Mr Dragon himself has to save every woman cause he’s a big strong man. Some of that is his chauvinistic attitude, but even just depicting his main bodyguard corps as a bunch of female ninjas fighting to make him respect them as the weapons they dedicated to be is probably going to be progressive for the genre on TV. Sad truths, etc.
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Oct 19, 2019 22:56
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A lot of the bad stuff will get cut. You won't get the constant introspecting about how the other gender are dumb or alien incomprehensible creatures. Maybe they'll scrap Rand's harem. Just make Elayne and Aviendha gay for each other, Rand barely interacts with them romantically anyway.
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Oct 19, 2019 22:57
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Invalid Validation posted:Yea I don’t see it as all that bad, most of the main powerful characters are women even if Mr Dragon himself has to save every woman cause he’s a big strong man. I mean that's a fairly important part of his character arc
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Oct 20, 2019 00:46
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Since the whole premise is MEN RAPED THE WORLD, SO HERE IS WHAT THE WORLD LOOKS LIKE IF FEMINISM AND ITS NARRATIVE GETS ITS WAY, I would think they would have to make some fairly fundamental changes in order to make it palatable in 2019. Like it would be nice if the overall theme were not "it's unfair to tar #allmen for the crimes of one guy, let's let Big Strong Omnipotent Instantly Knows Everything About War And Swordfighting And Naval Tactics And International Politics And Is Also Internally Mentally Tormented Man just do what he knows innately is right and redeem the male gender"
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Oct 20, 2019 00:54
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Rand gets poo poo wrong all the time and people die for his mistakes.
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Oct 20, 2019 01:58
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Data Graham posted:Since the whole premise is MEN RAPED THE WORLD, SO HERE IS WHAT THE WORLD LOOKS LIKE IF FEMINISM AND ITS NARRATIVE GETS ITS WAY, I would think they would have to make some fairly fundamental changes in order to make it palatable in 2019. I think that's more what it looks like now given current political trends rather than how it was intended. I mean, sure, death of the author etc., but Randland is hardly a giant dystopic vagina.
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Oct 20, 2019 02:12
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Rand also comes within a hair of damning his own soul. And Be'lal and Rahvin both would have killed him outright if not for Moiraine and Nynaeve, respectively. Do you mind explaining what you mean a bit more, because I'm not seeing it...
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Oct 20, 2019 02:13
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Yeah like six or more books are about Rand slowly going farther and farther off base and women like Cadsuane trying to get him help. The thing that pushes him in the wrong direction initially is losing his mentor figure in Moraine (who he treats horribly before losing) and one of his most consistently shown flaws is his inability to treat women as allies rather than people to be protected. If anything he resolves his issues far too slowly because of the series' pacing issues - saying he instantly knows the right move is way off base. Just because he occasionally has hell-yeah moments like the end of WH doesn't exculpate him and isn't intended to. WoT is bad about gender a lot of the time but it's frequently in internal monologue or flavor and not, in my opinion, structural stuff that really constrains the show.
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Oct 20, 2019 02:38
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Data Graham posted:Since the whole premise is MEN RAPED THE WORLD, SO HERE IS WHAT THE WORLD LOOKS LIKE IF FEMINISM AND ITS NARRATIVE GETS ITS WAY, I would think they would have to make some fairly fundamental changes in order to make it palatable in 2019. The overall theme is that everyone is stronger when they work together, though. That's what caused Lews Therin to fail where Rand succeeded. That's why the Forsaken fell. I'm sorry to harp on you but I dont see your read of it at all.
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Oct 20, 2019 02:39
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Besides some of the obvious things why is it not great on a macro level? How about compared to most fantasy in general? I truly like to read about it cause I’m dense as poo poo when it comes to these things.
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Oct 20, 2019 02:44
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It could well be my own shallow surface reading of the series, but I'm just saying that I can't be the only one, can I? The way the whole Cadsuane thing comes off over the course of multiple books, to a person who wants to read it that way, is "shrill harpy trying to rein in the Big Strong Omipotent Man and in the end he proves himself right and her wrong". And him losing Moiraine can equally easily be read as "finally he got rid of that meddling know-it-all and can do what he knows is best". Rand succeeding at the end might be the Rand coming down from the mountaintop wreathed in beatific glory and hugging his father kind of redemption story, but it can also be the Rand as Steve Jobs whirlwinding a pavilion into being in the middle of a battlefield so he can show everyone how awesome he is and how Egwene doesn't know what she's talking about story. For all the "Dark One showing him alternate futures of Twilight Zone humanity and Rand deciding that the ultimate solution is not to destroy him but to sweep him under a bigger rug like Smiling Joe Fission" meditations, it felt to me like the whole climactic battle was still more Rand being dragged along against his will to implement a half-solution that everyone could be happy with but which would ultimately prove just as impermanent as the last time, and less "you see what happens when we all work together?" Full disclosure, I read WoT less for my own interest than as a project to understand a friend of mine who is obsessed with it and will not stop talking about it under any circumstances and is planning to get dragon tattoos on his arms and everything. What I'm curious about is how many people in the audience, like him, are missing any possible readings that do not involve Rand as the infallible messianic figure who is proven right by every happenstance.
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Oct 20, 2019 02:52
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Also having thought it over, if the series doesnt have Thom's best scene knifing black ajah while sitting and writing poetry then it's all been for nothing
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Oct 20, 2019 02:52
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I think its your own shallow surface reading, friend.
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Oct 20, 2019 02:55
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Data Graham posted:It could well be my own shallow surface reading of the series, but I'm just saying that I can't be the only one, can I? You have that interaction backwards. It is "stern grandmother trying to beat some sense into the raving egomaniac, who eventually figures out that he was being a complete and utter moron and accepts that she was right all along."
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Oct 20, 2019 02:57
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Data Graham posted:And him losing Moiraine can equally easily be read as "finally he got rid of that meddling know-it-all and can do what he knows is best". I mean if you want to completely misread the entire plot thread then sure, you can read it like that. e: Her name is always first on Rand's list. ONE YEAR LATER fucked around with this message at 03:02 on Oct 20, 2019 |
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Oct 20, 2019 02:59
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Cadsuane isn't proven wrong. She messed up real bad executing on it at points, but her entire goal of making Rand feel emotion again was kind of important seeing as Rand's approach very nearly lead him to destroying the world. And Moraine is portrayed incredibly sympathetic by the time of her death, there's no honest reading of the series where it ever portrays her loss as freeing Rand. Rand wasn't even right about the seals, if he had broken them when he wanted originally wanted to (not that he could have because he lost them) the Dark One would have won. Basileus777 fucked around with this message at 03:05 on Oct 20, 2019 |
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Oct 20, 2019 03:01
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Data Graham posted:What I'm curious about is how many people in the audience, like him, are missing any possible readings that do not involve Rand as the infallible messianic figure who is proven right by every happenstance. Honestly, probably quite a few. And I *guess* if you ignored everything else that was going on in the story, then yeah, you could read his interactions with both Moiraine and Cadsuane that way. But he blames himself for not being hard enough which is why Moiraine died, and sets about making himself harder to the point by the Path of Daggers (which is what I'm reading right now, so it's fresh in my mind) his own soldiers aren't even cheering for him anymore. Even though he's the King of Illian. And with Cadsuane, well, seeing as he genuinely intended to blow up Ebou Dar, then the world, and once he'd had his revelation removed her exile, I would say that textually he was shown to be wrong bigly. I GUESS you could read it as Rand always being right, but you'd have to willfullly ignore an awful lot of stuff to get there. Including the parts where he apologises to his friends and allies and sobs on his father's shoulder after almost killing him.
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Oct 20, 2019 03:08
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It would be like watching Aliens, seeing that soldier say to Hicks 'I hear that' and going 'huh, Hicks must be speaking at a normal volume.' Apologies to whoever in CD I stole that from.
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Oct 20, 2019 03:10
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I never did get to the Sanderson books, I’ve heard they end pretty alright but how is actually reading them, is it jarring?
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Oct 20, 2019 03:11
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I honestly didn't really notice the difference.
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Oct 20, 2019 03:14
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Honestly I'm not trying to be that guy from the meme comic who jumps into a crowd and lobs a rhetorical grenade and scampers off cackling. This is an interesting conversation that I think is kinda important, if only for selfish purposes. Feel free to dismiss it, I wouldn't blame you. I just know that in some conversations I've had, if I were to throw out statements like "Rand is legit insane" or "Rand has to be shown the error of his ways before he can do anything right" or "The world is saved as much in spite of Rand as because of him" I would be subjected to an angry testosterone-drenched tirade. And while my readthrough of the series was pretty tongue-in-cheek, I found it pretty intrusive how that Infallible Messianic Rand reading kept overpowering the "you know, maybe there's a cautionary tale here idk" reading. So again, it's not about my interpretation, it's about everybody else, i.e. who the show is potentially aimed at. If everybody is smart enough to get the nuanced take, well great, I guess I won't worry. 
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Oct 20, 2019 03:15
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There are some issues, but I got used to it pretty quickly. It's worth reading
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Oct 20, 2019 03:16
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If you were going to lob a rhetorical grenade, you'd do it like this: Tylin didn't rape Mat, because women can't rape men. EDIT: To be clear, I'm not trying to be dismissive of you, I was quite genuinely baffled by the reading you mentioned on it. I'm ok with having a civil conversation about it but don't be surprised if I drop the odd joke here and there. Comrade Blyatlov fucked around with this message at 03:20 on Oct 20, 2019 |
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Oct 20, 2019 03:17
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Odd jokes are entirely in line with what I'm hoping for 
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Oct 20, 2019 03:23
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Data Graham posted:It could well be my own shallow surface reading of the series, but I'm just saying that I can't be the only one, can I? On one level, Jordan admitted the initial idea of WoT was in part derived from reading a book where a woman wasn't allowed to become a wizard, and thinking "what if men were the ones who couldn't wizard?" On another level though that's too simplistic by far and what he actually ended up writing was remarkably gender-forward for the 1990s. On yet another level gender-forward for the 1990's is, y;know, 20+ years behind the present.
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Oct 20, 2019 03:24
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Yeah like the fundamental basis of the entire mythos is constructed around the gender binary, any attempt to glean any insight from it is doomed from the start.
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Oct 20, 2019 03:28
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^^ It also just feels like right now is a particularly touchy time to bring out a show based on a property that is so intrinsically wrapped up in "men are like this, women are like this" 90s standup routine material. I wonder if the show can finesse it somehow.
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Oct 20, 2019 03:37
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Yeah, even with characters like Hasima, who are literally transgender, since it's the male Forsaken Bel'al(? that, or Aginor) dumped into a woman's body, and the narration was basically that his debauched tastes hadn't changed, just grown with the new body It was an advance of the state of the art at the time, and it's also 30 years old so it's got a lot of rough bits.
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Oct 20, 2019 03:38
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Data Graham posted:Honestly I'm not trying to be that guy from the meme comic who jumps into a crowd and lobs a rhetorical grenade and scampers off cackling. This is an interesting conversation that I think is kinda important, if only for selfish purposes. Feel free to dismiss it, I wouldn't blame you. I genuinely can't see how you and your friends read the exact opposite of the text. You should for real try a re-read with that in mind, you'll be pretty surprised. e: It shouldn't be hard for the show to finesse it at all. Almost all of the "men are this and women are this" is internal monologue.
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Oct 20, 2019 03:41
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