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Invalid Validation posted:I never did get to the Sanderson books, I’ve heard they end pretty alright but how is actually reading them, is it jarring? Sanderson tries to imitate Jordan’s style, but he doesn’t really succeed and at the worst of times it almost comes across like parody. He also has some stylistic tics which stand out because it’s not something Jordan would have done - one is that he likes to use italics for emphasis. The other is that he constantly uses the word ‘politics’. The word only appears once in the Jordan written novels. Jordan would always use ‘the game’ or Daes dae mar’ or something along those lines. It got to the point where the word would stand out like a sore thumb whenever you saw it. and there were other similar instances of phrases or word choice that Jordan wouldn’t have made. He isn’t as good at prose writing as Jordan was, plain and simple. Other issues - he struggled with writing Mat. When he wrote the character he kinda morphed into a more contemporary Marvel/Whedon style character wisecracking and making quips. Also another couple of things I disliked, one was the character inserts - they’d do contests where the winner would be inserted into the story as a minor cameo, and they did the same for prominent members of the WoT community. It’s the sort of thing a causal reader wouldn’t notice but If you were heavily involved in the community you’d spot it and be like ‘oh that character is a reference to this real world person’ and it would ruin your immersion. And finally in the last book he got sick of people complaining that the books had lots of references to lesbian relationships but there was no mention of gay ones so he inserted two of them in the most random ‘look at me’ fashion possible. Overall though despite my complaints they are decent books and worth reading. I think a good comparison is a film sequel with a different director. Harry Potter is a good example - the films are all telling the story of the books but there are very obvious stylistic changes between each director change.
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Oct 20, 2019 04:42
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Well that’s good and kind of impressive to be honest.
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Oct 20, 2019 05:05
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And for what it's worth, I've always found Jordan's prose to be average at best, weak at worst, and found Sanderson a welcome change of pace. I think opinions of his books vary but hating them is pretty uncommon.
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Oct 20, 2019 05:25
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Also, while I tend to agree that Mat isn't as well written in the Sanderson books, one of the segments that people found most off was actually penned by Jordan. It's possible it was a rough draft and Jordan would have fleshed it out during the editing process, but the point is that Mat coming across differently is just as much a result of the nature of how the books were written as Sanderson's own style is. I got into Sanderson briefly after he was announced as the writer to complete the series since I had never even heard of him. I bounced off his writing right about when the sequel Mistborn series came out. I got two books into Stormlight and I just don't have the will to go forward. He's fine I guess, but he's not for me.
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Oct 20, 2019 06:04
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So about the gender relations thing... Is nobody going to mention that the Dark One is released to make men and women equal? Mierin's deal is at least partially about getting a powersource both men and women can use, whereas divine law is that men have a half of the power they have to fight and women have a half of the power they have to surrender to. Attempting to violate this law is an act of absolute evil that literally frees Satan.
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Oct 20, 2019 06:34
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Data Graham posted:^^ It also just feels like right now is a particularly touchy time to bring out a show based on a property that is so intrinsically wrapped up in "men are like this, women are like this" 90s standup routine material. What will probably happen is that Amazon will put out a bunch of "Strong Female Characters!" marketing for the show, and all the men's rights types who would be biting down hard on the "only two genders!" aspect will get distracted.
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Oct 20, 2019 12:43
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TheGreatEvilKing posted:So about the gender relations thing... I mean, the Dark One IS called the Father of Lies, and at the end of AMOL is revealed to have been deceiving every one of his followers. That was what Mieren THOUGHT she was doing, but...
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Oct 20, 2019 16:50
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The True Power also is not freely available for anyone to use, it has to be given by the DO directly.
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Oct 20, 2019 16:59
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TheGreatEvilKing posted:So about the gender relations thing... It's just so clumsy that the book attempts to satirize a bunch of folk psychology about differences between the genders when there is a deep, fundamental difference constructed and enforced by the literal Creator.
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Oct 20, 2019 17:08
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ONE YEAR LATER posted:The True Power also is not freely available for anyone to use, it has to be given by the DO directly. I don't see why that matters? If anything, it makes it worse as the only way to overcome bio truths is to consort with Satan.
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Oct 20, 2019 17:21
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Ok, I'm at a loss again. Is there something fundamentally wrong with men and women having different magic? I dont get it.
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Oct 20, 2019 17:52
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Well, to start with the idea that there is such a thing as objectively existing, hardcoded “men” and “women “ is kind of bullshit.
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Oct 20, 2019 18:40
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Comrade Blyatlov posted:Ok, I'm at a loss again. Even its one token nod to something outside traditional norms - that a person's gender and sex can differ (as noted, itself a progressive thing to include at the time he wrote it) still enforces the idea of a binary instead of a spectrum.
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Oct 20, 2019 18:41
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How mad do gender theorists get about Newtonian physics? Same energy.
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Oct 20, 2019 19:19
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TheGreatEvilKing posted:I don't see why that matters? If anything, it makes it worse as the only way to overcome bio truths is to consort with Satan. I think in the world as portrayed in the books that idea of the True Power is intended to tempt with possibilities beyond the reach of the One Power and the cost of that is selling your soul to evil, regardless of gender. I feel it's less about a unified power for men and women, and more about the temptation of challenging the Creator directly, this is what Lanfear's ultimate goal is. The questions about gender and channeling are definitely ones worth raising but we'll never get any definitive answers since Jordan's dead.
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Oct 20, 2019 19:29
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That was more how I read it, yeah. It was mentioned Lanfear was thirsty for power at all costs, so I can see that being her motivation above all else. As for the gender stuff, well, RJ fought in Nam, he was a product of his time. The points raised are interesting enough, but to be honest I dont see his views costing the show any significant amount of viewers. Now if Rand gets shown to be THE ONE MAN WHO KNOWS ALL AND PROVES ALL WOMEN WRONG, welp.
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Oct 20, 2019 19:32
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Comrade Blyatlov posted:I . What a recorded memory of one random ancestor thought Mierin claimed she thought she was doing.
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Oct 20, 2019 19:50
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One interesting thing about the male /female duality is that RJ was smart enough to steal the Ying yanf symbol and break it up into the dragons fang and the flame of tar valon, but he deliberately left out the dots in the y/y which show that each side contains a grain of the other. Which would have gone a long way to resolving the gender binary problem I'd he'd left it in.
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Oct 20, 2019 19:55
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For the specific example of the flashback where we see the creation of the Bore, so much of the context comes from non-dialogue exposition, so they could probably turn that into a less gender-focused “we found a new power and we’re going to get at it” sort of thing. Not sure how they should handle it in the broader context.
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Oct 20, 2019 20:05
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Apparatchik Magnet posted:How mad do gender theorists get about Newtonian physics? Same energy. What is a gender theorist?
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Oct 20, 2019 20:48
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Hieronymous Alloy posted:What a recorded memory of one random ancestor thought Mierin claimed she thought she was doing. From memory it was also mentioned in the book of bad art as the goal of drilling the Bore
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Oct 20, 2019 20:55
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Comrade Blyatlov posted:That was more how I read it, yeah. It was mentioned Lanfear was thirsty for power at all costs, so I can see that being her motivation above all else. Yeah, one of the things about Mierin was that she was super ambitious, but still never managed a third name and lost Lews Therin's love because he suspected she didn't love him, just the prestige of being with him. There's also the stuff about her wanting to overthrow the Creator AND the Dark One.
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Oct 20, 2019 23:58
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DarkHorse posted:never managed a third name
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Oct 21, 2019 00:22
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bitprophet posted:I totally spaced on this being a thing! How did folks back then get multiple names? Third names were given to people who contributed something to humanity, like a scientific breakthrough or created a great work of art.
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Oct 21, 2019 01:08
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I do like how flawed all of the Forsaken are, and the only one that learns a drat thing is Demandred. Instead of just being mad at Lews Therin he goes and gets the biggest army and learns to be the best fighter. The rest, to one degree or another, die because they are at each other's throats.
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Oct 21, 2019 01:26
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Comrade Blyatlov posted:I do like how flawed all of the Forsaken are, and the only one that learns a drat thing is Demandred. Instead of just being mad at Lews Therin he goes and gets the biggest army and learns to be the best fighter. The rest, to one degree or another, die because they are at each other's throats. Even Demandred loses with an overwhelming advantage because he's an idiot who thinks only someone from his own age could match him and that Rand must be pretending to be Mat.
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Oct 21, 2019 01:41
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Comrade Blyatlov posted:I do like how flawed all of the Forsaken are, and the only one that learns a drat thing is Demandred. Instead of just being mad at Lews Therin he goes and gets the biggest army and learns to be the best fighter. The rest, to one degree or another, die because they are at each other's throats. Well, not Ishamael. He knew all the infighting was pointless no matter how it turned out, boy just wanted some honest, principled cosmic nihilism.
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Oct 21, 2019 01:43
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Basileus777 posted:Even Demandred loses with an overwhelming advantage because he's an idiot who thinks only someone from his own age could match him and that Rand must be pretending to be Mat. Also because Lan is The Balls
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Oct 21, 2019 01:50
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Hell just recast Viggo Mortensen as Lan
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Oct 21, 2019 02:01
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Basileus777 posted:Even Demandred loses with an overwhelming advantage because he's an idiot who thinks only someone from his own age could match him and that Rand must be pretending to be Mat. Yeah Demandred clearly thought only Lews Therin could compete with him as a general and that Lews' pride would prevent him from letting anyone else lead, completely ignoring that Rand wasn't Lews Therin. He couldn't even conceive of a world where he'd just get completely ignored by him, it was great
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Oct 21, 2019 03:18
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Comrade Blyatlov posted:I do like how flawed all of the Forsaken are, and the only one that learns a drat thing is Demandred. Instead of just being mad at Lews Therin he goes and gets the biggest army and learns to be the best fighter. The rest, to one degree or another, die because they are at each other's throats. One of my favorite things about the Forsaken is how many of them seem to have gone over to the Shadow just because of Lews Therin. There's even a point where the Lews Therin voice in Rand's head muses something along the lines of "Demandred could very well have been one of the greatest heroes of the age if I had been more of a friend and less of an antagonistic competitive rear end in a top hat." That does make me wonder how he treated the rest of them. I mean, how big of an rear end in a top hat do you have to be to make so many of the best and brightest on your side go "You know what? gently caress that guy, I'm going to go sign on with Satan"?
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Oct 21, 2019 03:34
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Khizan posted:One of my favorite things about the Forsaken is how many of them seem to have gone over to the Shadow just because of Lews Therin. There's even a point where the Lews Therin voice in Rand's head muses something along the lines of "Demandred could very well have been one of the greatest heroes of the age if I had been more of a friend and less of an antagonistic competitive rear end in a top hat." They guy was a politician that went around calling him the lord of the morning and the dragon. I hear the teeth grinding from here.
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Oct 21, 2019 03:47
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Khizan posted:One of my favorite things about the Forsaken is how many of them seem to have gone over to the Shadow just because of Lews Therin. There's even a point where the Lews Therin voice in Rand's head muses something along the lines of "Demandred could very well have been one of the greatest heroes of the age if I had been more of a friend and less of an antagonistic competitive rear end in a top hat." Given that the women in the Age of Legends refused to go along with him, I'd say he was a pretty big rear end in a top hat, yeah. I mean, the Forsaken all had some glaring personality defects, but even so. I'm still a fan of Semirhage being all staunch and stoic and not being able to deal with being treated like a child.
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Oct 21, 2019 04:39
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Comrade Blyatlov posted:I'm still a fan of Semirhage being all staunch and stoic and not being able to deal with being treated like a child. That would have been cool if it hadn't come down to spanking. Jordan you drat perv.
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Oct 21, 2019 06:26
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ONE YEAR LATER posted:I think in the world as portrayed in the books that idea of the True Power is intended to tempt with possibilities beyond the reach of the One Power and the cost of that is selling your soul to evil, regardless of gender. I feel it's less about a unified power for men and women, and more about the temptation of challenging the Creator directly, this is what Lanfear's ultimate goal is. The questions about gender and channeling are definitely ones worth raising but we'll never get any definitive answers since Jordan's dead. As you say, challenging the Creator is directly tied to disregarding or disobeying prescribed gender roles. It's not about what Jordan intended necessarily--the adaptation could certainly drop all of that and stick to a pretty well-trod swords and sandals fantasy, but the gender stuff is usually identified as one of the few unique elements of the series. But if they want to keep that the underlying structure is inherently gender normative.
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Oct 21, 2019 07:20
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Khizan posted:One of my favorite things about the Forsaken is how many of them seem to have gone over to the Shadow just because of Lews Therin. There's even a point where the Lews Therin voice in Rand's head muses something along the lines of "Demandred could very well have been one of the greatest heroes of the age if I had been more of a friend and less of an antagonistic competitive rear end in a top hat." There are two quotes about this that I can remember (and find in a quick google search). There's the thing you mention "Demandred should have been a hero. If I’d offered a hand instead of a smirk, if I’d congratulated instead of competed. If I’d been the man then that I am now...", which clearly shows the flaws in LTT that contributed to Demandred (and Sammael) pledging themselves to the Dark One. But there's also this earlier quote from Lews Therin's ramblings in LoC: "Sammael and Demandred hated me, whatever honors I gave them. The more honors, the worse the hate, until they sold their souls and went over." He did honor them, he probably just was arrogant enough to be incompatible with the also huge egos of Demandred and Sammael. It doesn't read as if he just treated them like dirt, so that their fall to the Shadow would be understandable. Demandred also has this inner monologue that he should have been the first of the (ancient) Aes Sedai, that LTT had always been overrated. His ego was just as big as Lews Therin's, and perhaps he simply could not accept being only the second most important Light side person. So he rather went over to the Shadow to be it's foremost general.
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Oct 21, 2019 08:04
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I think that always came across as kind of patronizing to me. Sure maybe he did honor them, but it may have been more a token effort rather than something real. And it certainly wouldn't have been on par with whatever accolades LTT himself won. Or at least that was my read on those sections.
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Oct 21, 2019 08:20
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Comrade Blyatlov posted:Hell just recast Viggo Mortensen as Lan I was actually picturing the guy that played The Hound as Lan.
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Oct 21, 2019 12:28
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Lan isn’t white though. Borderlanders are pretty clearly intended to be Asian. Particularly Malkier/Shienar which have very strong Japanese overtones.
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Oct 21, 2019 12:32
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I read it as LTT giving them honors, but more of a "here is the second place Nobel Peace Prize. I would give you the first but I already won it. But you still did pretty good champ."
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Oct 21, 2019 12:35
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