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Apparatchik Magnet
Sep 25, 2019

by Jeffrey of YOSPOS

RC Cola posted:

I read it as LTT giving them honors, but more of a "here is the second place Nobel Peace Prize. I would give you the first but I already won it. But you still did pretty good champ."

They wouldn’t get the Peace Prize until after they’d gone over to the Shadow and conducted some atrocities, though.

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DarkHorse
Dec 13, 2006

Vroom Vroom, BEEP BEEP!
Nap Ghost

RC Cola posted:

I read it as LTT giving them honors, but more of a "here is the second place Nobel Peace Prize. I would give you the first but I already won it. But you still did pretty good champ."

Yeah you can give accolades and still be poo poo at it, where the award is essentially an insult

ONE YEAR LATER
Apr 13, 2004

Fry old buddy, it's me, Bender!
Oven Wrangler
I saw this pop up, pretty cool to see first draft stuff and where it eventually went.

Algid
Oct 10, 2007


I don't think channeling being locked into binary genders is actually reflective of the real working the WoT cosmology. Whether channeling is even possible doesn't seem to be fixed across different ages, and there's indications that it's essentially a crutch when dreaming, completely meaningless in the face of someone that can control the dream. None of that sounds like it's actually a fundamental metaphysical force, or if it is its definitely subordinate to other powers, like how Rand lights his pipe in the end by staring at it with his Sharingan even though he can't channel at all any more.

ChubbyChecker
Mar 25, 2018

The Lord Bude posted:

Lan isn’t white though. Borderlanders are pretty clearly intended to be Asian. Particularly Malkier/Shienar which have very strong Japanese overtones.

The only Asians of Randland were the Saldaeans.

Inspector 34
Mar 9, 2009

DOES NOT RESPECT THE RUN

BUT THEY WILL
I thought the Domani were described with Asian characteristics too.

Eighties ZomCom
Sep 10, 2008




Inspector 34 posted:

I thought the Domani were described with Asian characteristics too.

They're described as having coppery skin, which could mean Mediterranean or Asian depending on your interpretation.

Data Graham
Dec 28, 2009

📈📊🍪😋



Weren’t the Cairhienins or someone described as having their heads shaved and topknotted like medieval Japanese lords?

Submarine Sandpaper
May 27, 2007


Taraboners use chop sticks

ONE YEAR LATER
Apr 13, 2004

Fry old buddy, it's me, Bender!
Oven Wrangler

Data Graham posted:

Weren’t the Cairhienins or someone described as having their heads shaved and topknotted like medieval Japanese lords?

Their military and nobles do but I've always imagined that they're more like 18th century france with the descriptions of the women having high piled hair and giant dresses. All of the cultures are a mix of a lot of things, which is one of the thing I like about the series and hope they nail in the show.

Gambrinus
Mar 1, 2005

ONE YEAR LATER posted:

I saw this pop up, pretty cool to see first draft stuff and where it eventually went.



Any more of this floating around?

aparmenideanmonad
Jan 28, 2004
Balls to you and your way of mortal opinions - you don't exist anyway!
Fun Shoe
None of the Randland countries and ethnicities are straight lifts from our world, they're nearly all a mix.

Data Graham posted:

Weren’t the Cairhienins or someone described as having their heads shaved and topknotted like medieval Japanese lords?

Shienarans do the shaved head except for topknot thing, which I've always seen as something like Yule Brynner is wearing in this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fAtbXBxj1sU

Cairhienin noblemen shave and powder the front half of their head, but it's a new fad they stole from low class soldiers. I've always envisioned it as some kind of renaissance European take on a chonmage (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chonmage) especially since they also wear sashimono (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sashimono)...but a lot of the rest of their culture and look is pretty clearly France.

Here's an old post that I've only been able to find on archive.org lately that is about 1/3 confirmed RJ stuff and 2/3 pretty good speculation:

https://web.archive.org/web/20110718121323/http://wotfaq.dragonmount.com/node/164 posted:

Posted on October 20th, 2010 by Jennifer Liang
[Richard Boyé, Sam McGee, Pam Korda, Trent Goulding, Linda Antonson]

Obviously, the various countries and nations of Randland draw some the their characteristics from real-world nations and cultures (both current and historical). Here's a list of Randland countries and real-world countries which may have influenced them. The ones labeled "RJ" are ones which have been stated/confirmed by RJ. The rest are just reasonable speculations.



Aes Sedai: Aes Sedai organization is based on the way convents were organized between 1000 and 1800 AD. (RJ) Also, the Aes Sedai seem to have an "ecclesiastical" hierarchy, with the Hall of the Tower and the Amyrlin Seat being similar in nature to the College of Cardinals and the Pope. The current split in the Tower and election of two Amyrlins is similar to the Great Schism of the Roman Catholic Church (1378-1415), when two Popes claimed authority over the Church [Robert Dahm].


Aiel: Cheyenne, Apache, Zulu, Bedouin, Japanese, Berbers (RJ); See section 3.13.


Altara: Italy; a loose confederacy of semi-autonomous regions beneath a weak monarch. The capital city contains elements of a much, much older city (Rome) complete with large public hippodromes (race tracks), the diet is heavily into seafoods and cheeses, the culture is outdoorsy and seems evocative of Mediterranean life. The people are dark-haired, dark-eyed and have "olive" complexions, which also suggests Southern Europeans. The makeup of the capital city Ebou Dar, with its strong guilds, use of both canals and streets, and frequent and uninhibited public celebrations, is reminiscent of Venice.


Amadicia: The fashions (gathers of ringlets, deep shady bonnets, bows on the women, high crowned hats and long coats for the men) seem vaguely suggestive of the Commonwealth Period of England, when the Puritans held sway. This also meshes with the notion that Amadicia is a quasi-theocracy, as they are essentially ruled by a military order of "monks" who seem to encourage a, well, puritanical and pious lifestyle among the populace. They also like to throw accusations of witchery everywhere, not at all unlike the Puritans who moved to North America.


Andor: England, or perhaps Great Britain in a looser sense. The honorable queendom evokes Elizabethan England specifically with its "Cult of the Queen." A few of the names of the noble houses seem to be lifted from Welsh mythology, specifically in the Mabinogion (e.g. House Arawn). The names of the current Royal Family are deeply steeped in Arthuriana, (e.g. Morgase [Morgause], Elayne [Elaine], Gawyn [Gawain]).


Arad Doman: Arabic cultures as well as Iran specifically (strictly speaking, Iranians are not Arabs); firstly, the word "arab" is almost present in the name "Arad Doman." Some of the characters' last names seem Arabic in theme (e.g. Sharif, Eriff, Zeffar), as well as some of their first names (e.g. Alsalam, Rashad). The capital city is Bandar Eban, a great port. In Iran, one of their larger maritime cities is Bandar Ebbas. Further, in Arad Doman one can find the Terhana Library, one of the three greatest in the world. Tehran, capital of modern day Iran, was a famed center of Islamic learning. However, the lacquered sticks, sursa, used as eating implements are chopsticks by any other name, and common throughout Asia.


Arafel: Arafel seems to be similar to Saldaea in that it seems to evoke certain peoples of the Black Sea and Asia Minor region. The horse culture of these peoples is alluded to by the fact that Arafellin are said "to love their horses like children." Also, the capital city of Arafel is Shol Arbela. Arbela was a regional capital of the Persians, a place of military historical significance (Alexander defeated the Persian Emperor, Darius III, there). Also, the name might be an allusion to Amrafel, who was the king of "Shinar," which was a biblical name for the lands ruled by Babylon. See Saldaea.


Cairhien: France, with a dash of Japan. The noblewomen's fashions seem to be somewhat reminiscent of the clothing from the Eighteenth century; high curled coiffures, full wide skirts and ruffs of lace. The Court of Louis XIV was called the Court of the Sun King. Cairhienin symbology is all about the sun, i.e. Sun Palace, Sun Throne. Furthermore, the prevalence of Daes Dae'mar calls to mind the lethal intrigues at the Court of Versailles (Affair of the Poisons, anyone?). The officers and noblemen wear con on their backs, small pennants attached to a short staff, which were also seen in feudal Japan. Japan is the "Land of the Rising Sun," Cairhien is the "Hill of the Golden Dawn," and its symbol is a rising sun.


Illian: Illian has something of a "Greek-Mediterranean" feel to it. Some of the names certainly follow a Hellenic pattern (e.g. Stepaneos, Demitrides). The King of Illian wears the "Laurel Crown," an allusion to the crowns of laurels awarded at the ancient Olympic Games. "Illian" itself is a take-off on "Illium," a name for Troy during the Classical Age. Lastly, the Illianer Companions seems to be a reference to the Macedonian hetairoi (meaning 'companions' in Greek), which were a prestigious order of mounted warriors that served the ruling house. Any decent scholar of military history such as RJ would know about the hetairoi. The bees on the flag seem to evoke the bees that were common in the heraldry of Napoleonic France.


Land of Madmen: Australia?


Malkier: Tibet, Nepal. A country of spectacular natural beauty nestled high in the mountains. The ki'san (dots) painted in the center of the brows of the women could either be an allusion to the Hindu practice, or to some representations of the Buddha; an overall thematic feel reminiscent of the countries near the Himalayas. John Stopford adds, "Malkier and Tibet have both disappeared under an evil empire that swallowed them up without reason, leaving behind one last leader as a touchstone for the kingdom itself."


Mayene: Cities of Hanseatic League, Venice, Genoa (RJ); Also, many of the Mayener names seem to carry a French flavor (e.g. Bertain Gallenne, Evonne), and "Mayene" itself seems to be a take-off on "Mayenne," an extinct French estate.


Saldaea: "a number of Middle Eastern cultures and several cultures in countries surrounding the Black Sea" (RJ) This is most directly recognizable in the "horse-culture" of Saldaea, which is evocative of many nomadic peoples of the Asian steppes. The name itself is similar to "Chaldaea," a section of the Assyrian and Babylonian empires. Place names are suggestive. Davram Bashere is "Lord of Bashere, Tyr and Sidona." Bashir was a place in Central Asia, and Tyre and Sidon were cities in modern day Lebanon, Tyre being the place of origin of "Tyrean purple." More flavorings come in their first names, such as "Tenobia," which is similar to "Zenobia," a historical queen of the ancient kingdom of Palmyra, which was in the region. Physically, Saldaeans can be seen to resemble the Mongols, excepting the red-haired, green-eyed rarities like Sheriam.


Sea Folk: A combination of allusions. The people were initially described much as Sub-Saharan Africans (tight, curly hair, dark skin tones), but later versions have them with long, straight black hair, which coupled with the dark complexions, silk garments and the medallions on chains attached to noserings seems to evoke India more than anything else. The intricately knotted sashes used to connote rank and station resemble Japanese obi (kimono sashes).


Seanchan: Imperial China, Imperial Japan, Persian Empire, Ottoman and Byzantine Empire. (RJ); The lacquer work of the Seanchan seems to be inspired by the Far East, the Emperor/Empress that is too magnificent for commoners to gaze upon is a concept borrowed from Japan. The phrase "Ever Victorious Army" was actually in use in Japan during one point of its history. Persian Empire: The Crystal Throne that inspires awe is a direct allusion to a Persian epic story. Ancient Egypt: pleated linen clothing, the tonsured heads, the patterns on Suroth's gown (symbols within cartouche-like ovals) which could be visualized as resembling hieroglyphics. WH provides even more cultural flavorings, including Greek names (Tuon's middle name is "Kore" [an ancient name for the Greek Goddess Persephone] and Selucia [Selucid Kingdom]), and Egyptian names (Neferi [Nefertiti]).


Shara: Africa in a macro-sense. The name "Shara" seems similar to "Sahara," and another name for Shara, "Kigali" is an actual place in Africa (capital of Rwanda). Furthermore, the two Sharans we have met were described as "African" in appearance, with tight, curly hair and dark skins. The silk production, "Silk Path" (Silk Road) and closed port cities are allusions, however, to Imperial China.


Shienar: Japan; the restrained, formal aesthetic, the communal genderless bathing rooms, the haiku-type poetry recited by Lan, the topknots of the warriors. Also, a dollop of Medieval Feudal Europe, notably the castle towns and the mounted warriors in full plate armor (knights by any other name), and the idealized courtesy and respect toward women (chivalry). Continuing a theme in the names for the Borderland nations, the name "Shienar" seems to be an allusion to "Shinar," a biblical name for Babylon.


Tarabon: Arabic cultures. The word "arab" is contained in the name "Tarabon," the veils seem to be reminiscent of certain Arabic societies, although in Tarabon they are unisex. The flattened cylindrical hats worn by the men are essentially the same type of hat as a 'fez,' popular in North African Arabic countries. The architecture has a Middle Eastern flavor; minarets and peaked domes, pointed arches.


Tear: Spain (nobility); the names of some of the High Lords have a distinct Iberian flavor (e.g. Estanda, Carlomin, Rosana) as do the names of some of their houses (e.g. House Saniago [Santiago]), their fashions seem to be reminiscent of Renaissance Spain (full skirted gowns with wide lace ruffs, puffy sleeved coats, oiled beards and moustaches). The armor and military équipage of the Tairen Defenders of the Stone are described as sounding very similar to the military équipage of the Spanish Conquistadores, notably the crested, rimmed helmets. The lower classes, on the other hand, seem to be very Asian in feel; some of the names (e.g. Juilin, Siuan, Huan), and some of their clothing; flattened conical straw hats, ties instead of buttons, wooden platforms for the feet as well as the usage of bamboo. But also some of the lower class members' names seem very Spanish as well (e.g. Sanche [Sanchez], Mecandes [Mecandez]).


Two Rivers: As part of Andor, the Duopotamians are fittingly modeled after the auld English country folk, presenting the fabled (and not all that accurate) picture of the joys of simple rural society. The use of longbows is a clear reference to the famous English bowmen that whupped French rear end in the 14th century (and each others' rear end in the next, but anyway).
RJ has said in interviews, "I live in the Two Rivers - check a map!" Charleston, South Carolina (RJ's hometown) nestles in the fork of the Cooper and Ashley rivers. [Michael Brown]



Whitecloaks: Teutonic Knights (RJ).
In March of 2000, Paul Ward received a letter from RJ in which he listed what some of the regional accents of Randland sound like:

Two Rivers - Irish/English
Illianers - Dutch
Aiel - somewhat Slavic
Tairen - Spanish
Domani - Indian
Saldaean - Egyptian/North African
Seanchan - Texas

aparmenideanmonad fucked around with this message at 23:24 on Oct 21, 2019

The Lord Bude
May 23, 2007

ASK ME ABOUT MY SHITTY, BOUGIE INTERIOR DECORATING ADVICE

Submarine Sandpaper posted:

Taraboners use chop sticks

No, Domani use chopsticks and it was fashionable to eat Domani food which chopsticks in Tarabon while Elayne et al were there.

Look closely at descriptions of Shienar and Shienarans. It’s very Japanese. Also nobody would use a term like ‘coppery’ for Mediterranean people. That’s very much a descriptor associated with south east Asia.

The Lord Bude fucked around with this message at 02:16 on Oct 22, 2019

Atlas Hugged
Mar 12, 2007


Put your arms around me,
fiddly digits, itchy britches
I love you all
Weirdly, I always saw the Cairhienin hairstyle as a precursor to the Manchurian queue. Give it a few decades, and the remaining hair would be braided in the back.

ChubbyChecker
Mar 25, 2018

The actors being from different races even when their characters come from the same non-cosmopolitan village makes much more sense than the racially homogeneous countries in the books. The books are set some thousands of years in the future, the world was unified under one government, and the Breaking mixed nations up too.

mossyfisk
Nov 8, 2010

FF0000
If we're going to get into "The First Age" business... Jesus of Nazareth is the Dragon Reborn, right?

ONE YEAR LATER
Apr 13, 2004

Fry old buddy, it's me, Bender!
Oven Wrangler

mossyfisk posted:

If we're going to get into "The First Age" business... Jesus of Nazareth is the Dragon Reborn, right?

Yes. Using spoilers because we have some people reading for the first time in the thread:

wounds on the palms of his hands, crown of thorns, wound in the side, produces food from nothing to feed the hungry, dies and comes back to life, his return signals the beginning of the end times.

ONE YEAR LATER
Apr 13, 2004

Fry old buddy, it's me, Bender!
Oven Wrangler

Gambrinus posted:

Any more of this floating around?

I've been looking around (the image was posted in the discord for that podcast I mentioned pages and pages ago) but all I can find is this blog post about someone checking out RJ's notes and drafts.

https://thewertzone.blogspot.com/2018/01/the-genesis-of-wheel-of-time.html?m=1

Henrik Zetterberg
Dec 7, 2007


This word will never stop making me laugh when I hear it.

ChubbyChecker
Mar 25, 2018

ONE YEAR LATER posted:

Yes. Using spoilers because we have some people reading for the first time in the thread:

wounds on the palms of his hands, crown of thorns, wound in the side, produces food from nothing to feed the hungry, dies and comes back to life, his return signals the beginning of the end times.

The book series is almost as old as the bible so there are no reasons for spoilers.

Sab669
Sep 24, 2009

Henrik Zetterberg posted:

This word will never stop making me laugh when I hear it.

Yea I don't care if it's "tara-bon-urs", I definitely read it as boner every time.

Same thing with "the taint" :haw:

e; ^^^ That's a stupid attitude when there have explicitly been a few posters saying they're just starting it. If one were simply assuming that were the case, fine sure the series is old as hell. But that's not the case.

ChubbyChecker
Mar 25, 2018

Cicero posted:

Is it mormon to have a lot of spanking, or is that just a reference to Sanderson finishing the series?

mewse posted:

Ugh I thought Robert Jordan was mormon as well as Brandon Sanderson

Robert Jordan was a Freemason, and according to this documentary it's a thing for them:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IFEJvIfMFfQ


Sab669 posted:

e; ^^^ That's a stupid attitude when there have explicitly been a few posters saying they're just starting it. If one were simply assuming that were the case, fine sure the series is old as hell. But that's not the case.

Good grief, so what's next, spoilers tags for Lord of the Rings in Book Barn because it too has a new TV series?

Soonmot
Dec 19, 2002

Entrapta fucking loves robots




Grimey Drawer
This is literally what the game of thrones thread did when the show came out.

ONE YEAR LATER
Apr 13, 2004

Fry old buddy, it's me, Bender!
Oven Wrangler

ChubbyChecker posted:

The book series is almost as old as the bible so there are no reasons for spoilers.

I want new readers to be surprised when they get to the New Testament .

Comrade Blyatlov
Aug 4, 2007


should have picked four fingers





mossyfisk posted:

If we're going to get into "The First Age" business... Jesus of Nazareth is the Dragon Reborn, right?

In the same way that Mat is Odin and Perrin is Thor, yeah

Or whoever the parallels are with, it's been a while

Henrik Zetterberg
Dec 7, 2007

ChubbyChecker posted:

The book series is almost as old as the bible so there are no reasons for spoilers.

There’s multiple posters currently reading the books for the first time, myself included. Don’t be a dick.

DarkHorse
Dec 13, 2006

Vroom Vroom, BEEP BEEP!
Nap Ghost

Comrade Blyatlov posted:

In the same way that Mat is Odin and Perrin is Thor, yeah

Or whoever the parallels are with, it's been a while

That's them. Rand has parallels with Tyr too I think. And then of course there's the parallels with Arthurian legend.

Part of why Wheel of Time feels so rich is because so much real world stuff is layered on them. It's not a simple 1:1, there's overlap between characters, cultures, and stories.

ChubbyChecker
Mar 25, 2018

DarkHorse posted:

That's them. Rand has parallels with Tyr too I think. And then of course there's the parallels with Arthurian legend.

Part of why Wheel of Time feels so rich is because so much real world stuff is layered on them. It's not a simple 1:1, there's overlap between characters, cultures, and stories.

Are there any other parallels with Tyr than the lost hand?

VAGENDA OF MANOCIDE
Aug 1, 2004

whoa, what just happened here?







College Slice

ChubbyChecker posted:

Are there any other parallels with Tyr than the lost hand?

One funny reference I remember is that he and Tam supply ale to Emond's Field.

And here's wikipedia on something else:

quote:

'You must know victory-runes
if you want to know victory. Carve them
into your sword's hilt, on the blade guards
and the blades, invoking Tyr's name twice.'

DarkHorse
Dec 13, 2006

Vroom Vroom, BEEP BEEP!
Nap Ghost

ChubbyChecker posted:

Are there any other parallels with Tyr than the lost hand?

Mostly the hero/ sacrifice bit and dying at Ragnarok

Comrade Blyatlov
Aug 4, 2007


should have picked four fingers





DarkHorse posted:

That's them. Rand has parallels with Tyr too I think. And then of course there's the parallels with Arthurian legend.

Part of why Wheel of Time feels so rich is because so much real world stuff is layered on them. It's not a simple 1:1, there's overlap between characters, cultures, and stories.

That was the thing I loved so much about it the first time I read it. It's very much its own thing, but it draws from others in a way that never feels cheap or forced.
I mean, Merlin travels with them but he sure as gently caress isnt a wizard!

Data Graham
Dec 28, 2009

📈📊🍪😋



Nope. Instead, Merlin is the Pope

Comrade Blyatlov
Aug 4, 2007


should have picked four fingers





Uhhh.... help me out here?

awesmoe
Nov 30, 2005

Pillbug

Comrade Blyatlov posted:

Uhhh.... help me out here?

merlin -> marlin -> fish guts -> siuan

Data Graham
Dec 28, 2009

📈📊🍪😋



Amyrlin?

Hieronymous Alloy
Jan 30, 2009


Why! Why!! Why must you refuse to accept that Dr. Hieronymous Alloy's Genetically Enhanced Cream Corn Is Superior to the Leading Brand on the Market!?!




Morbid Hound

The a-myrlin is clearly the only person who is not Merlin

Comrade Blyatlov
Aug 4, 2007


should have picked four fingers






:aaa: how the hell did I miss that one

Ok smart guy what about Tamyrlin then

Algid
Oct 10, 2007


mossyfisk posted:

If we're going to get into "The First Age" business... Jesus of Nazareth is the Dragon Reborn, right?
Age numbering isn't actually fixed, though there's only one scene that shows this. Remember that the books are supposed to be constructed as a record by someone from "the fourth age" only because the narrator (presumably Lolial) says that the events occurred during "the third age" and it wouldn't make any sense given the cosmology and how history is supposed to fade from memory as ages pass for it be from any other time period.

But then we have a scene from when Rand visits one of his academies and the dude he talked to wondered out loud if people during the age of legends referred to their own timer period as "the third age". The implication is that every age is the fourth age since that's the midpoint of the wheel, if causality is cyclical there's no way to order a historical period in an absolute manner, which also mirrors why it's only "called the third age by some".

Algid fucked around with this message at 01:52 on Oct 23, 2019

NinjaDebugger
Apr 22, 2008


Comrade Blyatlov posted:

:aaa: how the hell did I miss that one

Ok smart guy what about Tamyrlin then

The Merlin -> Tha Merlin -> T'a Merlin -> tamyrlin

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Comrade Blyatlov
Aug 4, 2007


should have picked four fingers





Tamyrlin -> Thom Merrillin

Thom is actually the Dragon, Rand is just whacked out as gently caress on Two Rivers Leaf

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