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wehraboo is pretty great but i think my favorite derivative is teaboo for anglophiles
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Nov 4, 2019 13:16
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For the entirety of the Cold War, our primary sources about the Eastern Front were overwhelmingly Nazi officers, and they naturally portrayed themselves as honorable knights whose superior training and equipment was not enough to hold back the tide of the bloodthirsty Communist hordes. This probably did a lot more to create wehraboos and Nazi apologists than Warthunder or whatever. Look how many people still believe that the Soviets charged into battle without weapons, or Polish cavalry charged tanks with sabers.
Acute Grill fucked around with this message at 14:35 on Nov 4, 2019 |
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Nov 4, 2019 14:32
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Acute Grill posted:For the entirety of the Cold War, our primary sources about the Eastern Front were overwhelmingly Nazi officers, and they naturally portrayed themselves as honorable knights whose superior training and equipment was not enough to hold back the tide of the bloodthirsty Communist hordes. This probably did a lot more to create wehraboos and Nazi apologists than Warthunder or whatever. Look how many people still believe that the Soviets charged into battle without weapons, or Polish cavalry charged tanks with sabers. What are you talking about, the Soviet press had a massive presence in much of Europe, and even mainstream Conservative authors would give the WWII red army praise, I can't think of a single book I read that took a sympathetic line to German soldiers until the early 2000s with the clean wehrmacht myth getting some traction. Even biographies on Stalin in the UK that spent their time documenting his many crimes and failings would suddenly start kissing his arse when the narrative got to 1941 praising his determination and willingness to sacrifice for the greater good and so on. You'd think the World at War episodes on the Soviet Union were made by the Soviet propaganda department they were so unabashed in gratitude.
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Nov 4, 2019 15:36
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My understanding was that the Western powers started the rehabilitation of the German army's reputation more or less immediately as a political aid to rebuilding efforts in West Germany, to maintain support for providing aid to West Berlin, and to keep them onside if the USSR started a land war. Plus, they had a lot of senior staff on hand thanks to operation paperclip who would have been much less useful if everyone was holding them to account.
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Nov 4, 2019 15:47
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There was an enormous political effort among the western allies to whitewash the wehrmacht and the German public and blame everything on the nazy party and SS. Because they wanted West Germany armed and ready on their side in the cold war and all of West Germany's military officers as well as many public officials were former nazis or nazi collaborators/war criminals. Literature from the time is loving appalling. You got high ranking West German officials demanding the return of nazi POWs from the Soviet Union in the 50s and calling their detainment the greatest crime against human rights in history.
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Nov 4, 2019 15:48
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Where did Enemy at the Gates get its '2 man, 1 gun' nonsense from? That film, and the subesequent Call of Duty knock off seem like the entry point for most of the ahistorical eastern front attitudes in the 2000s
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Nov 4, 2019 15:49
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I give that video more credit but you gotta look understand it in context to their previous videos, such as mechanics as metaphor. Lets look at Hearts of Iron where it puts the fascist nations as being mechanically interchangeable with liberal democracies except: -Fascist nations have no penalties to declaring war. -Fascist/authoritarian nations have no issues with their supply lines because partisans aren't really represented. -Your domestic politics aren't modelled thus the fact that you are a dictatorship isn't visible beyond having a single party state. -IIRC authoritarian nations use less consumer goods and thus have more IC for use at war; while democracies are hamstrung with "bread and butter" for the civilian population until they're at war. Mechanically it presents being fascist as being simply a better way to play the game; and thus metaphorically, since games are art, it makes a political statement, that fascism is simply better as an ideology to being a liberal democracy. Another example. Wehraboos aren't just entering fully formed into the world from the head of zeus. The idea of Panthers == Awesome was something present in games for a long time. The Close Combat series of tactical RTS games had Panthers sniping Shermans from across the map while being invulnerable in turn. Since these games only represented tactical platoon/company level combat, none of the weaknesses of the Big Cat tanks were present. Their maintenance requirements, their unreliability, their low relative numbers, allied numerical superiority and logistical supremacy or air superiority; or also glarring, is the gradual erosion of German troop quality. Something we see extremely prevalently in table top wargaming rulebooks which depict something like 40 variations of German formations each with special snowflake rules and special abilities whose late war units were all HARDENED VETERANS, MEN OF IRON, FORGED IN FIRE OF THE EASTERN FRONT while the Soviets, who had fought the same hard fought campaign and had pushed the Germans back; their late war 1944 armies are all greenhorns ???? From the perspective that games are art, and that games matter and are meaningful; and that some games can serve as political statements and/or as propaganda; then its absolutely correct to say that video games serve a potential role in enabling radicalization of people into the alt right through normalizing not purely nazi imagery, which I think was the wrong tact; but through the sheer laziness by designers in making Allied and Nazi soldiers mechanically indistinguishable. As it is said, by glossing over the weaknesses and problems of the respective sides, you in effect are creating the impression that they don't have these weaknesses and problems. And anyone who speaks up is a commie fun ruiner. Which reminds me that there is a part of the InneundoStudios video about radicalizing normies and how fascist infiltrators are putting wedges in communities, is pretty applicable here from multiple perspectives: -Wedges from people pushing back versus people who try to advocate for more realism (i.e better Soviet representation. Wedge. -Wedges vs people who push for more inclusivity resulting in the usual horseshit about "SJWs" ruining your game i.e Battlefield 4(?). Wedge. I'm sure there are others but I'm not smart enough to think of them. Basically, from the perspective not covered in the EC video but is well trodden grounds from Leftube, is the idea that these communities are fertile breeding grounds for extremism, get infiltrated and then wedges get formed to help further radicalization. Combine both perspectives together and keep the video in context with the pre-existing assumptions outlined in previous videos going in, the video is a lot more justifiable if imperfect. Also it should be understood that their audience is primarily other game developers in the industry. And the video should be seen as comparable to a powerpoint slide being shown by your consultants in a meeting room. e: Another wargaming tabletop example is that there was this really old tabletop wargame set in North Africa and it has all kinds of ultraspecific rules you'd expect out of these kinds of games. The tip of the iceberg is a rule that mandated a moral penalty to Italian troops if they ran low on water because, and I kid you not, "They needed twice as much water to boil their pasta." Ergo, the Italians were given a mechanical justification which normalized attitudes of Italian poor performance during WWII. In reality Italian pasta rations were canned with their sauce so if needed Italian soldiers would boil the pasta in the sauce, so the rule was "nonsense" but the nature of the game and its intention for "realism" meant people take these rules as being fact. It snowballs from there. Raenir Salazar fucked around with this message at 15:53 on Nov 4, 2019 |
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Nov 4, 2019 15:49
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"It took more effort for the Germans to take Pavlov's House than to take Paris"
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Nov 4, 2019 15:57
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JustaDamnFool posted:Where did Enemy at the Gates get its '2 man, 1 gun' nonsense from? That film, and the subesequent Call of Duty knock off seem like the entry point for most of the ahistorical eastern front attitudes in the 2000s From what little I read, that happened in very sporadic cases, but I don't think it was remotely a thing at Stalingrad. There was a problem with getting weapons to volunteers sometimes, but not soldiers.
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Nov 4, 2019 15:59
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IIRC, the Panther wasn't that unreliable. It was slightly worse than the Sherman, but better than the Cromwell, especially a couple of runs in when they ironed out the kinks, and was actually pretty cheap to make for how good a tank it was. It was the other big cats that were where the real problems kicked in - the Jagdtiger especially was magnificently awful. I do feel a bit uncomfortable when playing with Nazi tanks in WOT, simply because a lot of them are really good, really fun, and suit my playstyle perfectly. It does help, at least, that teams are completely random, so every match will be a wild hodgepodge of nationalities, so you never feel like you're fighting for the Nazis even when you're in a Nazi tank - you may be driving a King Tiger, but your buddies helping you push a corner are in an IS-3 and a Caernarvon, and there's decent odds the guy you're trying to kill is in a Jagdpanther. Darth Walrus fucked around with this message at 16:06 on Nov 4, 2019 |
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Nov 4, 2019 16:01
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I also think the normalization of nazis through media is just a thing in general. You get desensitized to them when theyre in so many of your movies and games and so forth. We were so used to them being this historically distant (and because of that, prevalent in media as bad guys) thing, villains in indiana jones, handful of idiots on stormfront, etc that we never looked at the present reality of white supremacy or considered the potential of rising nazism. I mean in the sense that people are or were still fooled by the idea that it's trolling or a "joke", because we were desensitized to Nazis. Well, maybe not anymore one would hope. They were both seemingly so distant historically to seem irrelevant yet also in all our media. It created this early 2000s vibe that joking about Nazism was about as dangerous as joking about Genghis Khan. Helps that we were teens.
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Nov 4, 2019 16:03
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Also people were already mocking Hitler when he became a public figure, it didn't do jack poo poo to stop him because duh. Inidividual fascists may melt down when they're made fun of but the movement itself is perfectly capable of withering ridicule, they just frame it as arrogance on the part of their enemies along with "they're laughing at you, too!". And of course, old school fascists were also capable of hiding behind irony if it suited their purpose.
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Nov 4, 2019 16:10
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JustaDamnFool posted:Where did Enemy at the Gates get its '2 man, 1 gun' nonsense from? That film, and the subesequent Call of Duty knock off seem like the entry point for most of the ahistorical eastern front attitudes in the 2000s The common theories are that it came from surrounded Soviet troops attempting breakouts with exhausted supplies, not having enough guns locally on-hand for civilian volunteers in some cities, or misattributing Imperial Russia's logistical failures in WWI to the Soviets. There's not one specific example to say "this is definitely where it came from."
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Nov 4, 2019 16:13
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Punkin Spunkin posted:I also think the normalization of nazis through media is just a thing in general. You get desensitized to them when theyre in so many of your movies and games and so forth. We were so used to them being this historically distant (and because of that, prevalent in media as bad guys) thing, villains in indiana jones, handful of idiots on stormfront, etc that we never looked at the present reality of white supremacy or considered the potential of rising nazism. I'd say though that there's a pretty big difference because the interactiveness of video games, the existence of online communities like "clans" where a bunch of similar like minded people hang out to play these games and identities get formed in some way around the faction you play the most in addition to the fact that once you start playing a WWII game the human urge to collect merch increases because that's how hobbies work. You branch out and get more invested. It starts playing a WWII game as a kid to being interested in the guns and equipment, and deeper interest beckons deeper interest; such as collecting historical guns and memorabilia. Then attacks on aspects of your hobby get internalized as attacks on you personally and your identity. Like we as a forum have this massive shared community identity largely because of our common association in an internet spaceships game dedicated to trolling the "elite" try hards. Which provide an additional nice example of the more ethnic EVE Online communities which slam you hard in the face if you even remotely attack their nationality i.e the Russian EVE Alliances. SA turned more leftwards for various reasons, its easy to see how other communities turn rightwards from a similar dynamic.
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Nov 4, 2019 16:21
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Bug Squash posted:My understanding was that the Western powers started the rehabilitation of the German army's reputation more or less immediately as a political aid to rebuilding efforts in West Germany, to maintain support for providing aid to West Berlin, and to keep them onside if the USSR started a land war. Plus, they had a lot of senior staff on hand thanks to operation paperclip who would have been much less useful if everyone was holding them to account. Britain and France wanted more German army officers tried for war crimes and in the UK they refused to repatriate all axis prisoners until 1948 because it was using them as free agricultural workers. The French also supported the complete destruction of German industry and even the American occupation forces had dismantled factories and shipped out technical equipment in their zone. The rebuilding of West Germany didn't happen until after the US shifted its policies in the 50s, the Marshall plan loans weren't created until 1948 when the relationship between the Soviet Union and the USA had broken down. And frankly the relationship between the Soviet Union and western europe never deteriorated as badly as it did with the Americans, and never cut ties or economic or cultural links with it. And anti German sentiments in the UK remained extremely strong, to the point where the UK panicked when it reunified. Operation paperclip and the Soviet Operation Osoaviakhim were terrible but they had nothing to do with rebuilding the German military, they were about recruiting scientists for their weapons and rocket programs, if anything they weakened German rearmament by taking many specialists.
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Nov 4, 2019 16:24
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Darth Walrus posted:IIRC, the Panther wasn't that unreliable. It was slightly worse than the Sherman, but better than the Cromwell, especially a couple of runs in when they ironed out the kinks, and was actually pretty cheap to make for how good a tank it was. It was the other big cats that were where the real problems kicked in - the Jagdtiger especially was magnificently awful. I think they mean Tiger because that's the main glorified, unreliable small number nazi tank. War games tend to play up the significance of the tiger like it was an on field P-1000 Ratter or something 
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Nov 4, 2019 16:28
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YaketySass posted:Also people were already mocking Hitler when he became a public figure, it didn't do jack poo poo to stop him because duh. Inidividual fascists may melt down when they're made fun of but the movement itself is perfectly capable of withering ridicule, they just frame it as arrogance on the part of their enemies along with "they're laughing at you, too!". Not to draw a modern parallel but Hitler was pretty unpopular in the cities and mainly gathered support in rural areas. Berlin especially hated his guts and he hated the city back for it.
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Nov 4, 2019 16:31
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Raenir Salazar posted:Mechanically it presents being fascist as being simply a better way to play the game; and thus metaphorically, since games are art, it makes a political statement, that fascism is simply better as an ideology to being a liberal democracy. No, it suggests that fascism is a more efficient way to achieve the game’s specific goals. That’s not the same as saying its better overall. Strategy games don’t generally have population happiness or civil rights as a goal; they’re more often about holding/expanding territory and winning wars. People are well aware that games are only able to model certain things, and that this is going to change how they interact with them. For example, in GTA, penalties for reckless driving are basically nonexistent, encouraging players to drive far more wildly than they ever would in an actual car, where a crash might kill them or cost them thousands of dollars. The difference between game mechanics and real life changes things completely. It would be absurd to say that playing GTA risks turning you into a bad driver. Also that video falls on its face within the first 10 seconds with its silly “you didn’t ask for this, you didn’t choose this” line. Uhh… of course you did, you bought the game. Does this guy think people go into games knowing nothing about how they work? Bakeneko fucked around with this message at 16:40 on Nov 4, 2019 |
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Nov 4, 2019 16:37
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Endorph posted:do you mean the game or do you mean extra credits Extra Credits. "Don't normalize Nazis" is a fine and good message but Jesus did they drop the ball here.
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Nov 4, 2019 16:39
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There's a pretty big gap between the fact that a massive amount of videogames (Hearts of Iron, Civilization, Company of Heroes...) intentionally or unintentionally parrot Nazi/neo-Nazi propaganda and Extra Credits' thesis that Counter Strike did 9/11Baka-nin posted:Operation paperclip and the Soviet Operation Osoaviakhim were terrible but they had nothing to do with rebuilding the German military, they were about recruiting scientists for their weapons and rocket programs, if anything they weakened German rearmament by taking many specialists. The reason Operation Paperclip usually gets the focus is that while the whitewashing of irredeemable war criminals like Von Braun is it's nowhere near as reprehensible as the US' systematic postwar campaign of aiding and recruiting more hands-on butchers like Klaus Barbie. It's similar to how MKULTRA is presented as "LSD lol" to distract from the US government's extensive campaigns of unethical testing on unwilling human subjects.
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Nov 4, 2019 16:51
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Bakeneko posted:No, it suggests that fascism is a more efficient way to achieve the game’s specific goals. That’s not the same as saying its better overall. Strategy games don’t generally have population happiness or civil rights as a goal; they’re more often about holding/expanding territory and winning wars. These games absolutely push a narrative that dictatorships are superior by limiting the negative effects the player had to deal with to war only. I guess the player randomly being toppled by another upstart fascist would make for annoying gameplay.
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Nov 4, 2019 16:57
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Bakeneko posted:No, it suggests that fascism is a more efficient way to achieve the game’s specific goals. That’s not the same as saying its better overall. Strategy games don’t generally have population happiness or civil rights as a goal; they’re more often about holding/expanding territory and winning wars. This is pretty wrong, even innocent games can have accidental at best themes and a narrative that advocate for things like colonialism, i.e Minecraft; as Eschenique says, there's absolutely a narrative that can be read into the game (though maybe not deliberately pushed, Paradox likes to troll its far right fanbase) and that's the power of games just like any other artistic medium. No one is saying merely playing the game makes you a Nazi ala "Video games make you violent" but there's definitely an effect just like any other medium. EC's video is not well implemented, but the core argument, ignoring the video's specific rhetorical flair and looking at it critically and in context; it's not wrong and is conveying a completely accurate criticism of the lazy design in games that portend to be "historically accurate". Think of all the games that have the Sturmgewehr 44 as super plentiful and common as the world's first "battle rifle" even though not very many were made and only extremely late war and imagine what sort of implication that has; again, "Germans being superior in equipment and training" and this is the attitude the game is reinforcing which leads to knock-on effects. Microcline posted:Counter Strike did 9/11 This is absolutely not their thesis and is a Theseus argument.
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Nov 4, 2019 17:06
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Errant Signal did a great video on how games can push certain ideologies, maybe not even consciously, with the example of the Civ series, which uses modern ideas of statehood/cultural identity and terribly outdated theories about technological progress to inform it's core mechanics.
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Nov 4, 2019 17:19
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Baka-nin posted:Britain and France wanted more German army officers tried for war crimes and in the UK they refused to repatriate all axis prisoners until 1948 because it was using them as free agricultural workers. The French also supported the complete destruction of German industry and even the American occupation forces had dismantled factories and shipped out technical equipment in their zone. The rebuilding of West Germany didn't happen until after the US shifted its policies in the 50s, the Marshall plan loans weren't created until 1948 when the relationship between the Soviet Union and the USA had broken down. I think you've misunderstood me. I meant that there was a conscious effort to rehabilitate the reputation of the army, not an effort to get it back online as soon as possible. Likewise, Paperclip clearly had a materially negative effect on Germany itself, but reputation management was critical in order for America to get it's money's worth out of the people it had snatched without too many powerful people asking why von Braun wasn't in prison or executed for crimes against humanity.
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Nov 4, 2019 17:21
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Raenir Salazar posted:This is pretty wrong, even innocent games can have accidental at best themes and a narrative that advocate for things like colonialism, i.e Minecraft; as Eschenique says, there's absolutely a narrative that can be read into the game (though maybe not deliberately pushed, Paradox likes to troll its far right fanbase) and that's the power of games just like any other artistic medium. No one is saying merely playing the game makes you a Nazi ala "Video games make you violent" but there's definitely an effect just like any other medium. EC's video is not well implemented, but the core argument, ignoring the video's specific rhetorical flair and looking at it critically and in context; it's not wrong and is conveying a completely accurate criticism of the lazy design in games that portend to be "historically accurate". But he is saying they make you a Nazi, though. Or contribute to it at least. He’s saying that if you see enough Nazi symbols in a game then that might cause you to hang around far-right websites and absorb their ideas. My point is that most people are smarter than that and understand the difference between fiction and reality. You don't stay away from those websites just because they have iron crosses on them; you stay away from them because you know that what they're saying is hateful bullshit. He does manage to make one good point, which is that depictions of horrific things in fiction can be seen as insensitive to survivors of those things in real life. That’s a topic that all types of fiction struggle with, but there’s no need to single out games when books and movies have been featuring Nazis since before the war even ended.
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Nov 4, 2019 17:33
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A strategy game that lets you play as Nazi Germany should have a victory score based on how many Jews and Roma the player manage to kill, doing otherwise is lying about the explicit purpose and function of its state apparatus. Which is to say: don't let people play as Nazi Germany.
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Nov 4, 2019 17:34
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Bakeneko posted:But he is saying they make you a Nazi, though. Straight up no. quote:Or contribute to it at least. This is slightly more accurate but is still wrong; the thesis is that these games hollistically result in normalization; not that they contribute to making you a nazi. Think of it as step 1 of the Onion from Dan's video on radicalizing normies. It's just step one of the onion prior to being redpilled but from a more gamer perspective. quote:He’s saying that if you see enough Nazi symbols in a game then that might cause you to hang around far-right websites and absorb their ideas. This is an oversimplification but is essentially true, see Dan's video. quote:My point is that most people are smarter than that and understand the difference between fiction and reality. Wrong. quote:You don't stay away from those websites just because they have iron crosses on them; you stay away from them because you know that what they're saying is hateful bullshit. The iron cross is a dogwhistle, its plausible deniability in a nutshell, again, outer layers of the onion. Critical thinking means taking applicable concepts and applying them to other situations. Dan's thesis is 100% working in conjunction here; it's a better video that argues the same point than the EC video; hence why the EC video isn't wrong. Like there's a whole lot of goalpost shifting going on here.
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Nov 4, 2019 17:39
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WW1 games should start with you as the Kasier. Then you gradually lose control and the later half is just a cinematic as Hindenburg and Ludendorff turns everything poo poo
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Nov 4, 2019 17:42
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Raenir Salazar posted:Wrong. How so?
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Nov 4, 2019 17:49
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i stopped watching extra credits 9 years ago when they talked about how persona 4 was a gripping pro-gay narrative 'cause even at the time i thought they were stupid also their extra history stuff is filled with a ton of inaccuracies that push certain perspectives and sides as heroic in spite of their very obvious faults so perhaps they shouldnt throw stones in glass houses
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Nov 4, 2019 18:29
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Extra credits sucks and isn’t the writer a horrible person?
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Nov 4, 2019 18:46
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Endorph posted:i stopped watching extra credits 9 years ago when they talked about how persona 4 was a gripping pro-gay narrative 'cause even at the time i thought they were stupid They have a very specific rational in that following the Great Man theory of history provides a more compelling narrative with which to write and air a pop history series; they have a specific live action video segment that they even call Lies where they talk about the stuff they got wrong or gave their reasons for any specific inaccuracies or they focused on some sources/aspects of the history or neglected others. It's fairly holistic in its approach taken together and they do more economics focused marxist theory stuff on occassion when a good series can be written around it. They have a professional historian on staff as well and collaborated with other professional historians like the guy from the History of England podcast among others. They don't really "push" a perspective per se, its part of a meta narrative. For example the Justinian series and the Koshrau series back to back shows this in action. watho posted:Extra credits sucks and isn’t the writer a horrible person? Evidence points to James being an abusive boss but he isn't the only writer. It's a company with a couple dozen staff including multiple writers so you can't really point to a specific episode and be like "James wrote this so its suspect".
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Nov 4, 2019 19:04
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Raenir Salazar posted:This is absolutely not their thesis and is a Theseus argument. Congratulations on figuring out that someone posting the phrase "Counter Strike did 9/11" on a comedy website is exaggerating for comical effect. Perhaps you could use these critical theory skills to see how while Extra Credits understands that a thing called critical theory exists and can be used to identify the propaganda embedded in all of our media, it has no idea how to apply it and thus no insights to share.
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Nov 4, 2019 19:23
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Endorph posted:i stopped watching extra credits 9 years ago when they talked about how persona 4 was a gripping pro-gay narrative 'cause even at the time i thought they were stupid Did they skip like, the entire game
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Nov 4, 2019 19:30
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Microcline posted:Congratulations on figuring out that someone posting the phrase "Counter Strike did 9/11" on a comedy website is exaggerating for comical effect. Perhaps you could use these critical theory skills to see how while Extra Credits understands that a thing called critical theory exists and can be used to identify the propaganda embedded in all of our media, it has no idea how to apply it and thus no insights to share. Ironically making a bad and incorrect argument is still a bad argument. Additionally I assume a good faith argument in that what someone says is what they mean at face value; the burden of making a clear and concise argument that isn't easily misunderstood lies with the person making it. If you're argument is so badly formulated that the clarified argument is no different from moving the goalposts than that original argument was a bad argument and the person making it should feel bad. And the second half of you statement is demonstrably wrong considering how much it angered the chuds and how a million response videos got spawned by the usual suspects like The Quartering. Clearly they did something right to kick over that anthill. You go at it too far from the opposite direction wherein you posit that because it wasn't well written that it wasn't worth making. This is clearly wrong.
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Nov 4, 2019 19:30
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Endorph posted:also their extra history stuff is filled with a ton of inaccuracies that push certain perspectives and sides as heroic in spite of their very obvious faults so perhaps they shouldnt throw stones in glass houses Are we talking "Huuuh, Mosaddegh actually got tired of politics so he left, CIA and MI6 didn't do much actually" sorta stuff?
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Nov 4, 2019 19:35
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Kunster posted:Are we talking "Huuuh, Mosaddegh actually got tired of politics so he left, CIA and MI6 didn't do much actually" sorta stuff? Probably not, EC tends to not do contentious topics that are too recent, the most recent was the Berlin Airlift / Cuban Missile Crisis chronologically speaking and an offhand mention to Nixon abandoning the gold standard in response to the oil shocks. There's a lot of videos that follow particular sources which give, at surface level, a biased perspective. I.e if you followed the Justinian the Great videos you were probably very inclined to be pro-Justinian by the end. But then came the Persian perspective and things would 100% flip180 degrees and wow Justinian broke agreements and was a big jerk to Khosrow. It's a perfectly defendable act of artistic license.
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Nov 4, 2019 19:42
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Kaiser Mazoku posted:Extra Credits. yeah. there are conversations to have about how to portray nazis but most of those issues are WOT or various grognard tactical games and some PC games. the "don't play as the bad guys or "make it choice" feel very hot takey and dumb. the terrorists one is also dumber. Endorph posted:
they are better than john green history and lit videos but yeah.
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Nov 4, 2019 20:15
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Dapper_Swindler posted:yeah. there are conversations to have about how to portray nazis but most of those issues are WOT or various grognard tactical games and some PC games. the "don't play as the bad guys or "make it choice" feel very hot takey and dumb. the terrorists one is also dumber. I mean so it's not hot takey and dumb depending on the game? I don't think there's any disagreement that the execution was clumsy, but you can see why they approached it that way to try to seem apolitical and reach an American centric audience. I think it's fair to say that having a game where you play as the Wehrmacht is problematic because the Heer committed just as many war crimes as the SS and the Clean Wehrmacht is a myth. The main point was that playing as the Wehrmacht, which did all sorts of crimes, is being seen as the same level as playing as the Allies; that there is no difference morally between them except the Axis have cooler guns...? I take much of the video as window dressing as trying to keep to the middle of the road and not be as subversive as they could but it's still a valid point. quote:they are better than john green history and lit videos but yeah. Is there a specific video? Because between artistic license and their Lies segments I'm not really sure what they mean. Any telling of a historical figure regardless of their actions, will appear to humanize them no matter how much care is put into to inform the audience of their worst atrocities. Like the Ghengis Khan series I don't think glossed over Mongol actions but you still have the accounts of his early life and his "Dunk and Egg" moment of "Kill the boy egg and let the man be born." which adds an element of unavoidable humanization and empathy. There's an argument to be made you can't understand history without understanding the people within it.
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Nov 4, 2019 20:34
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Quinton talks about Creepypasta Holy poo poo I didn't know that OG Jeff story. That was certainly.. a thing. "How do I make my spooky character look intimidating? Hm... how about I mention he is really good with children and put a picture of a windowless van with 'free candy' written on the side?"
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Nov 4, 2019 20:44
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