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Raenir Salazar posted:I mean so it's not hot takey and dumb depending on the game? I don't think there's any disagreement that the execution was clumsy, but you can see why they approached it that way to try to seem apolitical and reach an American centric audience. I think it's fair to say that having a game where you play as the Wehrmacht is problematic because the Heer committed just as many war crimes as the SS and the Clean Wehrmacht is a myth. The main point was that playing as the Wehrmacht, which did all sorts of crimes, is being seen as the same level as playing as the Allies; that there is no difference morally between them except the Axis have cooler guns...? I take much of the video as window dressing as trying to keep to the middle of the road and not be as subversive as they could but it's still a valid point. i just don't care for john green, i am sure good dude but his video essays tend to be basic and best and he had a dumb hot take about lord of the flies though most of his stuff is ok. plus he has lovely tropes that are pretty ablest in his one book. on extra credits. i think the core of their video is fine but all the solutions kinda come off as mother who only sorta understands the problem trying to come up with a solution. when you play the campaigns of those games, least the cods and the battlefields that are set in ww2. they always show the heer as evil fucks or at least complicit in the horrible poo poo. the ones that are weird and blur the lines are the RTS games and he never really brings those up and thats where the said issue is the problem. i mean the first nazis in game i ran into like 14 or so years ago was on GMOD rp servers and it wasn't the ww2 ones.
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Nov 4, 2019 20:54
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Leal posted:Quinton talks about Creepypasta The terrifying face that are the true reason this every got any success whatsoever is the result of Jeff trying to get stains out of his bathtub,
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Nov 4, 2019 21:19
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Dapper_Swindler posted:i just don't care for john green, i am sure good dude but his video essays tend to be basic and best and he had a dumb hot take about lord of the flies though most of his stuff is ok. plus he has lovely tropes that are pretty ablest in his one book. In the case of EC and their simplistic examples it goes back to that their audience being game developers are expected to think of the solutions themselves. The examples are basically the most simplistic and basic as examples go to reach and be understood to a wide audience; but the developers themselves are obviously better equipped to think of solutions that work for them. If they tried to be more creative then its more likely its a solution that wouldn't work for some subset of their professional audience. The basic premise being that developers typically don't think. They make the game the publisher tells them to do and in AAA spaces don't really put a lot of effort into because they just entirely lack the social issue awareness to even realize there are questions they should be asking. By bringing up the issue, that alt right violence might be partly enabled by video games reinforcing certain attitudes; they, the developers could consider steps to fight back a little. The whole point is just to give them awareness and get them to "wake up" to the issues they are oblivious to to make "more socially conscious game design" i.e the title of that video. Basically in the FPS space we have Spec Ops: The Line which is a game that put a LOT of effort into feeling off putting in not just the narrative and themes, but also the very mechanics of how it plays. Regular games could learn some lessons from Spec Ops without needing to entirely develop the deconstruction aspect. Which EC also wrote a two-part video series on specifically all of that.
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Nov 4, 2019 21:23
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Raenir Salazar posted:e: Another wargaming tabletop example is that there was this really old tabletop wargame set in North Africa and it has all kinds of ultraspecific rules you'd expect out of these kinds of games. The tip of the iceberg is a rule that mandated a moral penalty to Italian troops if they ran low on water because, and I kid you not, "They needed twice as much water to boil their pasta." Ergo, the Italians were given a mechanical justification which normalized attitudes of Italian poor performance during WWII. In reality Italian pasta rations were canned with their sauce so if needed Italian soldiers would boil the pasta in the sauce, so the rule was "nonsense" but the nature of the game and its intention for "realism" meant people take these rules as being fact. It snowballs from there. I feel I should point out that Campaign for North Africa was written as a satire of wargames of the era trying to be realistic and as such is a game about excel sheets and trying to run logistics minutiae. It does have the not-true rule about Italians needing more water for their pasta, as well as an actually true rule about the Allies losing more gasoline to heat before capturing enough gas cans from the Germans and reverse engineering them.
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Nov 4, 2019 21:25
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The best use for Nazis in video games is as convenient hatchet and knife cushions for BJ Blazskowicsz
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Nov 4, 2019 21:40
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Raenir Salazar posted:From the perspective that games are art, and that games matter and are meaningful; and that some games can serve as political statements and/or as propaganda; then its absolutely correct to say that video games serve a potential role in enabling radicalization of people into the alt right through normalizing not purely nazi imagery, which I think was the wrong tact; but through the sheer laziness by designers in making Allied and Nazi soldiers mechanically indistinguishable. Raenir Salazar posted:They don't really "push" a perspective per se, its part of a meta narrative. For example the Justinian series and the Koshrau series back to back shows this in action. Raenir Salazar posted:There's a lot of videos that follow particular sources which give, at surface level, a biased perspective. I.e if you followed the Justinian the Great videos you were probably very inclined to be pro-Justinian by the end. But then came the Persian perspective and things would 100% flip180 degrees and wow Justinian broke agreements and was a big jerk to Khosrow. It's a perfectly defendable act of artistic license. 
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Nov 4, 2019 21:42
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Raenir Salazar posted:They have a very specific rational in that following the Great Man theory of history provides a more compelling narrative with which to write and air a pop history series; they have a specific live action video segment that they even call Lies where they talk about the stuff they got wrong or gave their reasons for any specific inaccuracies or they focused on some sources/aspects of the history or neglected others. It's fairly holistic in its approach taken together and they do more economics focused marxist theory stuff on occassion when a good series can be written around it. They have a professional historian on staff as well and collaborated with other professional historians like the guy from the History of England podcast among others.
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Nov 4, 2019 22:06
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https://twitter.com/Cavni/status/1005503665363247105 https://twitter.com/Cavni/status/993896147646275584 http://www.twitlonger.com/show/n_1sqiift also the guy who runs extra credits is credibly an egotistical abuser so i think he may have ulterior motives for subscribing to great man theory
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Nov 4, 2019 22:10
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Arcsquad12 posted:The best use for Nazis in video games is as convenient hatchet and knife cushions for BJ Blazskowicsz amen to that. or the ones in Cod WAW. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GxtRD3BdhRI
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Nov 4, 2019 22:23
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Endorph posted:also the guy who runs extra credits is credibly an egotistical abuser so i think he may have ulterior motives for subscribing to great man theory This is textbook ad hominem though and isn't at all relevant to whether it is a valid artistic license in how to tell history; you're free to not like something for any reason but I don't see any evidence that they are unreasonable or incorrect to go that route and you haven't presented evidence that any episode in particular was inaccurate in order to.... Rehabilitate some historical figure out of egotistical reasons? Which you also claim is hypocritical or something? I dunno it's hard to keep track when Occam's Razor would imply the simpler explanation is that they picked a paradigm that made for more entertaining episodes. Endorph posted:world of tanks has a specific rationale in that tanks are cool and provide compelling gameplay and it has professional historians on staff so why is one okay and the other isnt This is incoherent. Having a historian on staff has nothing to do with the macro level game design decisions the designers/developers made; the historian can only give yes/no answers as to whether something is "accurate". While a historian literally writing the episodes clearly would have more of a say over the final product? It's like you didn't even take time to understand my point but instead looked for the most superficial similarities you could to try to make a gotcha argument. I don't really get the point you're trying to make, because in context those are all internally consistent posts. Since it was in response to Endorph's claim about the episodes having the intent to rehabilitate historical figures for some unknown reason. It didn't really make sense to me either. i.e: quote:also their extra history stuff is filled with a ton of inaccuracies that push certain perspectives and sides as heroic in spite of their very obvious faults so perhaps they shouldnt throw stones in glass houses None of this was true and Endorph doesn't seem interested in elaborating. Raenir Salazar fucked around with this message at 22:56 on Nov 4, 2019 |
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Nov 4, 2019 22:51
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Raenir Salazar posted:I give that video more credit but you gotta look understand it in context to their previous videos, such as mechanics as metaphor. Snipping this even though it probably generally applies to more of the post. Honestly, you could probably do an entire series of essays about the weird relationship between Paradox's mechanics, their attempts to avoid certain bad topics, how they steer you into historical roleplay, and how they function to make the game playable. Like, they left out all the horrible stuff about the Nazis entirely because they didn't want fashes (or youtubers making edgy jokes, but I repeat myself) to gleefully click the "gas the jews" button. In addition, Fascists have all these buffs because they continually found that it was effectively impossible to make the Axis powers able to spread as far as they did in real life without them. Japan, for instance, gets a massive artificial buff until a while after Pearl Harbor because otherwise they just get stomped by the US in about as long as it takes to get boats near Japan. (Or at least at release, I don't know if they changed it). Their lack of penalties to declaring war is because the game needed some artificial system-based way of ensuring the Axis usually started WWII (and also does serve a metaphorical purpose in portraying the Allies' extreme reluctance to go to war for fearing repeating WW1, hence policies like Appeasement). This creates a bit of a tension where if you look at the game as-is it has a bunch of very unfortunate implications as you mention, like whitewashing Nazis and making it seem like Fascism is (at least for the purposes of the game) a Superior Ideology. But if you look at the game as-developed you see all the careful work that went into setting up the dominos to actually portray the threat of the Axis and authentically portray the way history actually happened with the Axis as the aggressors. Now there are some obvious other things you can say here: don't let the axis be playable, hard code some of this stuff (e.g. EU4's "lucky nations"), etc. I don't think anyone is wrong to make those arguments necessarily, but Paradox was dead set on making a systems-based game, and systems based games occupy a weird niche compared to other art where you can't just make mechanics metaphorically make sense when they have to actually be tuned to make things happen as desired, even if that requires some thematically problematic fudging. Then there's a whole nother set of stuff to analyze in like CK2 and EU4 on top of more straightforward stuff like "how EU4's representation of colonialism makes you think like a colonialist" as they've been revised to death mechanically. Mechanics that actually had some metaphorical or thematic meaning were long ago replaced with other systems that are more thematically incoherent but function much better in making the game playable or making thematically or historically meaningful outcomes happen more often. Linear Zoetrope fucked around with this message at 23:52 on Nov 4, 2019 |
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Nov 4, 2019 23:47
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Also in Hoi4, Paradox takes the position that Stalin Was Right. If you don't do the purges you get overthrown.
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Nov 4, 2019 23:52
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Then there's Stellaris where the slavery and genocide options get really creepy when you learn the lead dev is an unironic Trumper who was signal boosting folks like Richard Spencer...
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Nov 4, 2019 23:52
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Raenir Salazar posted:Also in Hoi4, Paradox takes the position that Stalin Was Right. If you don't do the purges you get overthrown. Yeah, that one's a bit of an issue. You could make the argument it's to guide it so real history is more likely and encourage people to click the "great purge" buttons by providing a steep penalty otherwise, but if that was the intent they probably should have just done what they did with the Nazis and just not. Mokinokaro posted:Then there's Stellaris where the slavery and genocide options get really creepy when you learn the lead dev is an unironic Trumper who was signal boosting folks like Richard Spencer... Wait, which one? The original one, Wiz, or the current one? I assume you mean the original dev (was that Johann?) considering at the announcement they were wearing a Make Space Great Again hat. TBH I'm getting extremely tired of space/fantasy slavery in general.
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Nov 4, 2019 23:59
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Mokinokaro posted:Then there's Stellaris where the slavery and genocide options get really creepy when you learn the lead dev is an unironic Trumper who was signal boosting folks like Richard Spencer... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O1CQ7Vwz8Eo
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Nov 5, 2019 00:01
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Yeah currently in Stellaris if you allow even one foreign pop onto your planet theyll eventually overtake the original. Basically The Great Replacement made real.
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Nov 5, 2019 00:05
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Raenir Salazar posted:Basically in the FPS space we have Spec Ops: The Line which is a game that put a LOT of effort into feeling off putting in not just the narrative and themes, but also the very mechanics of how it plays. Is this ye olde "Spec Ops plays like poo poo on purpose" argument? Because that's 100% bullshit.
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Nov 5, 2019 00:11
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Mokinokaro posted:Then there's Stellaris where the slavery and genocide options get really creepy when you learn the lead dev is an unironic Trumper who was signal boosting folks like Richard Spencer... Holy poo poo what did he do to boost Spencer?
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Nov 5, 2019 00:26
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On the other hand there was that one group of developers who were alt right channers ruining the next Vampire game with alt right references and paradox gave them the boot.
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Nov 5, 2019 00:27
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I'm still convinced that its just crappy programming (the AI opts to equalize the race spread when choosing which race to spawn the new pop for) and the people complaining about their main race being over taken don't realize you just click on the pop of the planet, and pick whatever race it is you want and the game will only spawn that race whenever that planet gets an extra pop. Anyways all races are devoured equally by the swarm.
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Nov 5, 2019 00:30
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Or stomped on by giant mechs if you play machines
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Nov 5, 2019 00:35
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Reminds me of how in rimworld every woman was at least a little bisexual and men could never be bisexual. Not sure if that’s been changed now but I think the guy was pretty defensive about it
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Nov 5, 2019 00:39
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Raenir Salazar posted:I don't really get the point you're trying to make, because in context those are all internally consistent posts. Since it was in response to Endorph's claim about the episodes having the intent to rehabilitate historical figures for some unknown reason. It didn't really make sense to me either. The second quote is you stating that their own art does not deliver political statements ("a perspective") because they are only parts of a greater work. The third quote is you stating that their art intentionally glosses over weaknesses and problems of the sides presented. So why is it less valid for Endorph to claim their episodes rehabilitate a historical figure than their video to claim games rehabilitate Nazis?
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Nov 5, 2019 00:45
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watho posted:Reminds me of how in rimworld every woman was at least a little bisexual and men could never be bisexual. Not sure if that’s been changed now but I think the guy was pretty defensive about it He had a proper meltdown in the rock paper shotgun comments, it was wild.
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Nov 5, 2019 00:46
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^Yeah, the dev for Rimworld is kind of a shitheel in general, or at least was. I want to say that he said some really bigoted stuff about Muslims too. The top thread on the steam forums at one point was a heavy discussion about how to deal with beautiful lesbians. Which was a serious question, since men would hit on lesbians with the beautiful trait, get frustrated when they were shot down and end up generally pissed off with low morale. It never really happened with beautiful gay men. I think he went hard on some outdated stats to defend the lovely weighting on the traits. For Rimworld, it's also the tricky part where one pop is an absolute shitload of people. So you either have none or ~10 million. On that topic, it's similar to some of the complaints about how African nations were handled in Victoria 2. They were generally undeveloped territory that had to be "colonized." Although I want to say they straight up didn't respect the state of Ethiopia at the time of the game either. At least in the original version, I'm not as familiar with the DLC and I know that they changed it a little. In fairness to the game, there are implications that the colonization process is ugly and they're just not going into the slow and potentially bloody process of small 100 person battles as the bar ticks by (you can be a genuine connector who just makes friends and gives everyone education, freedom and rights...playing as the enlightened union of Hawaii was possible and fun). But one dev made a statement that was close to "If one guy with a machine gun can take over territory than it isn't a country." Which in fairness is true in their lovely battle system. The smallest army unit is 10,000 and it just isn't designed to handle something like guerrilla combat or the reality of occupation. But it leads to the weird erasure of Africa in the game. Even if that fits the setting.
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Nov 5, 2019 00:46
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watho posted:Reminds me of how in rimworld every woman was at least a little bisexual and men could never be bisexual. Not sure if that’s been changed now but I think the guy was pretty defensive about it That was the most hilarious thing. Here is how it worked: Men could only be straight or gay. They could not be bisexual Women could only be bisexual or gay. They could not be straight. The dev got his source on how "realistic" this off based on statistics from OKCupid. Also his own anecdotes of men he knew irl who claimed they were bi but would ultimately come out as gay. Beyond the galaxy braining here, this had the annoying effect of being gay taking up a trait slot. Pawns typically have 2 or 3, you'd probably prefer something like hard worker or jogger. Some-related to that was his views on romance between men and women. Namely: Men don't want to date anyone older then them Women don't want to date anyone younger then them This would cause rejections in game which would tank the mood of your colonists cause they kept.loving.trying. It was completely unironic when people would lament about the beautiful 18 year old lesbian destroying their colony cause every male would constantly hit on her then get mood breaks after the 20th rejection.
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Nov 5, 2019 00:50
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For a while the Rimworld thread title was Rimworld: No Man's Bi Gave me a chuckle.
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Nov 5, 2019 00:51
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Raenir Salazar posted:On the other hand there was that one group of developers who were alt right channers ruining the next Vampire game with alt right references and paradox gave them the boot. Only after they started an international incident because they minimized the mass murder of queer people in Chechnya. Up until then they were totally ok with supporting known harassers and flirting with fascists despite people reaching out to them.
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Nov 5, 2019 00:52
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Hel posted:Only after they started an international incident because they minimized the mass murder of queer people in Chechnya. Up until then they were totally ok with supporting known harassers and flirting with fascists despite people reaching out to them. Yeah. Made funnier because it was Vampire's original developer/writer who most likely wrote it. The developer himself is one of those awful 'if you strike a Nazi you are as worse as they' types even separate from all this.
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Nov 5, 2019 01:27
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Linear Zoetrope posted:Wait, which one? The original one, Wiz, or the current one? I assume you mean the original dev (was that Johann?) considering at the announcement they were wearing a Make Space Great Again hat. TBH I'm getting extremely tired of space/fantasy slavery in general. Yeah, Johann. Not Wiz. Antifa Turkeesian posted:Holy poo poo what did he do to boost Spencer? He was HEAVILY boosting alt right garbage on twitter using his account which was also used to promote the game. Someone higher up obviously told him to knock it off though as he's scrubbed it all and unfollowed all the chuds he was boosting. Leal posted:It was completely unironic when people would lament about the beautiful 18 year old lesbian destroying their colony cause every male would constantly hit on her then get mood breaks after the 20th rejection. The 18 year old lesbian former sex slave (who I believe used to be younger than that) because they was a backer character. Mokinokaro fucked around with this message at 01:37 on Nov 5, 2019 |
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Nov 5, 2019 01:34
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Mokinokaro posted:The 18 year old lesbian former sex slave (who I believe used to be younger than that) because they was a backer character. We don't talk about Emmie.
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Nov 5, 2019 01:38
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Raenir Salazar posted:This is textbook ad hominem though and isn't at all relevant to whether it is a valid artistic license in how to tell history; you're free to not like something for any reason but I don't see any evidence that they are unreasonable or incorrect to go that route and you haven't presented evidence that any episode in particular was inaccurate in order to.... Rehabilitate some historical figure out of egotistical reasons? Which you also claim is hypocritical or something? I dunno it's hard to keep track when Occam's Razor would imply the simpler explanation is that they picked a paradigm that made for more entertaining episodes. Great man theory appeals to egotists because they already have a view of the world that involves a great, important person. (themselves.) And I'm not saying they intentionally rehabilitate specific historical figures, but that the framing of their episodes does that just as a matter of how the episodes are made. Just like they accuse World of Tanks or whatever of doing. You can say they make the extra lies videos, but those videos are a boerd dude blandly reciting stuff in a blank room for an hour, not a snappily edited 7 minute thing with drawings. One of these things is obviously going to appeal more and get more views than the other, much like a lot of people dont read the gigantic paragraphs of historical and engineering text in ww2 sims.
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Nov 5, 2019 01:39
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Ghostlight posted:The first quote is you defending their criticism of games as meaningful art that functionally delivers political statements and therefore political propaganda by glossing over weaknesses and problems of the presented sides within parts of the game. This is reductionist take. Critique can be nuanced and not absolutist. For example when we say, "Hoi4 claims Stalin was right" no one actually asserts that this is the ultimate meaning; only that there exist concerning interpretations that exist as natural implications of the design. It is a possible interpretation to reveals shortcomings in the game's design, to promote discussion. EC's purpose with its video is similar, also to promote discussion, to raise awareness. I in defence of the video's merits point out InnuendoStudio's recent video on "How to radicalize a Normie" to bridge the game between EC's video and a more holistic approach to games, symbols, and their communities and how it relates to real world issues. quote:The second quote is you stating that their own art does not deliver political statements ("a perspective") because they are only parts of a greater work. I did not claim this, I said they did not deliver that particular perspective Endorph is insinuating. Sorry if that wasn't clear. Insofar as Endorph assumes that any perspective or bias in telling history is automatically a bad thing to do or are trying to rehabilitate a particular figure. I already gave my 2 cents why this is bollocks, it's basically impossible to present a personable narrative of a historical figure that covers their life events without at some point, humanizing them. So to claim EC is doing this deliberately is without rational basis. quote:The third quote is you stating that their art intentionally glosses over weaknesses and problems of the sides presented. I dunno, seems like an oversimplification and a borderline strawman to me. quote:So why is it less valid for Endorph to claim their episodes rehabilitate a historical figure than their video to claim games rehabilitate Nazis? See above. If you're premises are wrong then your conclusion is wrong. Additionally Endorph's claim is not correct just because Endorph asserts it as true. Endorph could have at least pointed to any video Endorph thinks cross the line and explains why they feel it does so but hasn't.  Endorph posted:Great man theory appeals to egotists because they already have a view of the world that involves a great, important person. (themselves.) Again, this is ad hominem and just comes across as just not liking something you don't like. Which, go ahead, sure. You're entitled to your opinions but I'm not going to agree it's credible. Insofar as I assume you came from the Leftube thread and assumes all historical forces are economic forces; they are both valid perspectives, but it isn't really relevant; it is undeniable that apparent explanation, that Great Man Theory is the most watchable, is certainly a valid explanation. And there's nothing wrong with having that style. Otherwise why would we have historical movies if it wasn't true (True that its watchable, easier to make enjoyable for an audience, not true as in its more valid as a theory)? Like if you're just going off of my second hand explanation maybe don't? Go read their original explanation? Anyways I'll just use the Death of the Author card here and say James isn't relevant for this discussion; which again, he's not the actual writer of the history episodes. quote:And I'm not saying they intentionally rehabilitate specific historical figures, but that the framing of their episodes does that just as a matter of how the episodes are made. You're moving the goalposts here; no one denies there's a framing. I ask that you explain how that framing is bad? Again, they specifically have a post-series call out episode where they go back and review their own inaccuracies. Which you haven't really acknowledged is a thing they do. Fake Edit: you finally do but in a silly way, marvellous. quote:Just like they accuse World of Tanks or whatever of doing. You can say they make the extra lies videos, but those videos are a boerd dude blandly reciting stuff in a blank room for an hour, not a snappily edited 7 minute thing with drawings. One of these things is obviously going to appeal more and get more views than the other, much like a lot of people dont read the gigantic paragraphs of historical and engineering text in ww2 sims. So you didn't actually watch the video? They never call out any particular game (World of Tanks is actually a regular sponsor of Extra Credits), so I don't get why this is your particular axe to grind if you haven't watched anything in 7 or whatever number of years because you're just arguing from a position of ignorance. It's like claiming a book shouldn't have footnotes because who reads footnotes. It's all just  Isaac Asimov explains in the foreword of one of his foundation novels the scientific inaccuracies in his previous books; you're like, he shouldn't do that; he should just get everything right and perfect; the audience has zero responsibility have an open and critical mind and to do their own research and not take a 7 minute video as gospel? Are you for real? In terms as to what is a reasonable position to take you are being unreasonable. Raenir Salazar fucked around with this message at 02:08 on Nov 5, 2019 |
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Nov 5, 2019 02:04
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On this topic, here's MrEnter's reaction to a similar video Extra Credits did a couple of years ago: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2UpUYB1Qppo To wit: Extra Credits is arguing against a straw man on the issue.
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Nov 5, 2019 02:33
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Extra Credits is a big dumb poopoo and games that let you play as nazis are bad
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Nov 5, 2019 02:35
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cogito ergo incommo posted:On this topic, here's MrEnter's reaction to a similar video Extra Credits did a couple of years ago: I mean, if you look at the discussion and the examples presented by posters here, they're not if you broaden it out.
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Nov 5, 2019 02:35
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Raenir Salazar posted:This is reductionist take. Is the reduction in framing your comment which - I believe - accepts the critique as valid as a defense, or in the summary of your statements into a singular sentence? Raenir Salazar posted:I did not claim this, I said they did not deliver that particular perspective Endorph is insinuating. Raenir Salazar posted:I dunno, seems like an oversimplification and a borderline strawman to me. If they do, then it must be intentional because otherwise they would also be missing from the Persian perspective. Raenir Salazar posted:See above. If you're premises are wrong then your conclusion is wrong. Additionally Endorph's claim is not correct just because Endorph asserts it as true. Endorph could have at least pointed to any video Endorph thinks cross the line and explains why they feel it does so but hasn't. I also categorically deny being premises.
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Nov 5, 2019 02:42
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please no more
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Nov 5, 2019 02:45
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Mokinokaro posted:Yeah, Johann. Not Wiz. When did this guy work on Stellaris? I looked it up but I can't find much from a quick Google search. Apparently the guy who replaced Wiz was some dude named Daniel Moregard.
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Nov 5, 2019 03:12
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Ghostlight posted:Okay, so you concede parts of their work deliver political statements that can be individually criticised in the same way that a game mechanic can be. Insofar as any art can be, I don't have to accept someone's particular criticisms are valid or backed by evidence. quote:You state the Justinian the Great videos would make people be inclined to be pro-Justinian by the end until the Persian perspective. How do you explain that change in conviction if the parts which are Justinian videos aren't specifically excluding the weaknesses and problems of Justinian (because they are in the Persian ones)? Have you watched the videos? Because the Justinian videos absolutely don't gloss over Justin's faults as a ruler. Being 7-10 minute videos in length, the EC team presumably like any pop history youtuber, like Military History Visualized, or History Matters or History Simplified or any number of history youtubers I see on my recommendations and don't click on; all have to make executive decisions and artistic license to cover the ground they need to cover; which means some stuff naturally ends up being cut; some things get more focus than others. Is this actually an issue? So separating the narrative into separate Roman and Persian perspectives, how is this not a valid means of telling history? Are people not allowed to release content in a sequential form in which a more clear picture forms when you can make an analysis on the merits of the aggregate whole of the work? Isn't it actually to their extra credit do to it in this way because then you have two separate series that complement each other and provide thought provoking insights into the nature of history as a discipline? That depending on which historical primary sources you use; i.e persian records vs roman records; and which perspectives to focus on, you get contrasting perspectives and narratives that give a more nuanced and critical view over the whole thing? Like American Rebellion vs War of Independence... How do you tell that history, of say, the war of 1812, without splitting it? I see this as fantastic, I really don't understand the source of the objection here. It's perfectly valid by any metric as a means of approaching history. If you read the Rise and Fall of the Roman Empire, and you only get to the middle volumes and the later volumes aren't released yet; is it really fair to say the author is being inaccurate or pushing some kind of nefarious agenda? Because to be clear, do you actually have an issue with how they present history, are you just being contrarian; do you think that it's wrong to do it the way they do it? Endorph made a claim and assigned a moral judgment; if it was just a matter of Endorph merely disagreeing with how they presented historical events this wouldn't have been an argument. If you just want to say, "Well they do present things a different way" okay who cares? Raenir Salazar fucked around with this message at 03:15 on Nov 5, 2019 |
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Nov 5, 2019 03:13
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