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DoubleCakes posted:gamers will think that any mention of anything political is beating the player over the head so lol To an extent, but there's also an issue where people mean at least a few different things when they say "political". The "everything is political" perspective is talking about how every creator has a place in the world and all works that they create will naturally extend from that place. The other side is usually talking about overt contemporary political references. If you see someone talking about the second and respond with the first then you're not really interacting with them in a meaningful way, you're just watching the point fly up high in the sky.
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Nov 7, 2019 07:43
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Eschenique posted:Galaxy brain: Japanese devs hide politics under 10 feet of lolis to the point where no one sees it and when someone points out that the lolis are problematic they get called out for bringing politics into an apolitical game. Jesus, I really blacked out on a lot of MGS3.
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Nov 7, 2019 07:53
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DoubleCakes posted:And I think that the subsection of gamers that don't like games being political is because real-life is political enough is a very small subsection (I've been that guy occasionally). There is a genuine group of people that do really only want to play games as a fun time de-stresser and all that, which I can respect if their otherwise uninvolved in anything game starts being encroached upon by something or stuff like that, but yeah I feel like the people who say that with honesty are oftentimes much, much less than the "UGH POLLYTICKS" people, who really just don't want to see the gays or criticism/refusal of their trash beliefs unfortunately.
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Nov 7, 2019 07:56
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RareAcumen posted:Jesus, I really blacked out on a lot of MGS3. The Boss' true mission was to prevent Snake from figuring out she's actually a 10k year old loli.
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Nov 7, 2019 08:31
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Eschenique posted:Galaxy brain: Japanese devs hide politics under 10 feet of lolis to the point where no one sees it and when someone points out that the lolis are problematic they get called out for bringing politics into an apolitical game. what is any of this
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Nov 7, 2019 08:37
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Crocoswine posted:what is any of this probably racist
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Nov 7, 2019 08:45
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Innuendo Studios' "how to radicalize a normie" video talked about this really well. Overall, though, I think the whole discussion is a mix of a bunch of things. First of all is that the status quo seems apolitical because that's just "normal", and depending on your personal little bubble of the world, things can seem political when it's literally just representation without a message. For instance --NovemberMike posted:To an extent, but there's also an issue where people mean at least a few different things when they say "political". The "everything is political" perspective is talking about how every creator has a place in the world and all works that they create will naturally extend from that place. The other side is usually talking about overt contemporary political references. If you see someone talking about the second and respond with the first then you're not really interacting with them in a meaningful way, you're just watching the point fly up high in the sky. I mean, sort of. But the issue is I'm an "all art is political" person who also finds media with cardboard cutout standins for contemporary political figures generally tiresome. The issue is that everyone has a different perspective about where "politics" lies. For some people "this game had a gay character who isn't the butt of a joke" is "shoving politics down our throat" just because it mentions gay people at all. There's also just some really peculiar stuff, like how diversity in Star Wars is "political" but the First Order being obvious Space Neo-Nazis somehow isn't because "Nazis are bad and are movie villains" is just a cultural norm. People also just get mixed up with the concept of meta-politics with a work's politics. If a director says they want to increase diversity in the industry, or a film is marketed in part based on diverse casting, then suddenly the movie they're casting for is "political" and "about diversity" even if the film itself doesn't even really touch those themes at all. While "all art is political" means what you reference, it's also kind of an acknowledgement that oftentimes the people who claim they're talking about overt political references often can have very idiosyncratic, sometimes even damaging viewpoints about what sorts of things actually count as an "overt political reference". Not to say "all art is political" people can't get weird about it. Especially when it comes to people getting weird at the author for whatever problematic political theme they read into their work. This gets into a larger conversation about Death of the Author and the slipperiness of intent and even the concepts of "good" and "bad" art, but I think in general it's fine to not like partisan politically themed work, but you have to be pretty precise about what exactly counts as political to you and make sure that you're not scoffing at some stuff as "political" just because it revolves around something that happens to exist in political discussion, especially when that thing is marginalized groups of people. Linear Zoetrope fucked around with this message at 11:29 on Nov 7, 2019 |
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Nov 7, 2019 08:47
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Eschenique posted:I like Jim Sterlin. But he keeps giving glowing reviews to mediocre games while making them seem awesome and tricking me into buying them. I mean both of those games own so this seems more like a personal problem
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Nov 7, 2019 11:06
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i dont think there's any big difference between japanese and western devs exactly its just there's fewer japanese AAA games so there's less japanese media that goes through the billion dollar bland politics process. Like Nier is the way it is because even its biggest entries are fairly smallscale releases, compared to something like Mass Effect Andromeda which has EA money behind it and so the best it can manage in terms of discussing gender is a random NPC shouting her dead name at you. I guess Metal Gear Solid would be the exception but MGS is pretty clearly a case where Kojima and his team basically accidentally made a massive breakout hit with MGS1 and just kind of got money to do whatever they wanted. And even in MGS's case, MGS is so preoccupied with foreign politics that it wouldn't really ruffle feathers in Japan, and America is already used to media about a government agent who is navigating whether or not the american government is doing the right thing. Of course an issue from the opposite side is that the conversation's gotten to the point that if you say you find a lazy trump stand-in being an antagonist lame and probably irrelevant within six years, you get people acting like you're mad Trump got made fun of. I think at the end of the day it's kind of an issue of people like, overidentifying with media. They don't want media that they can think about in the context of their politics, they want media that *is* their politics. Like they can just say they're a fan of it and have all their political beliefs assumed. So someone who wants the status quo will talk about how Nier: Automata isn't political, and someone who's liberal will talk about how Avengers or whatever is actually pushing the boundaries of race and gender in American culture. And it's dumb either way because of course it isn't and of course it isn't.
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Nov 7, 2019 11:16
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Saying something is apolitical is saying that no part of it disagrees with the centrist position. As the centrist position is different between cultures and even subcultures things can easily become political in translation without any changes to the work.
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Nov 7, 2019 11:33
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Takoluka posted:You're really getting a lot of mileage out of that avatar. One day I'll replace it, but whenever I try its just too good to be replaced Crocoswine posted:what is any of this Anime
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Nov 7, 2019 11:38
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I wouldn't say "It's subtle", but more that its politics weren't about immediately recognizable subject matter or were in platforms that weren't exactly scrutinised as much these days. Like, Kojima already did game-stopping cutscenes on his games to address matters back in the MSX2 days, and Snatcher was ported to nearly every 32 bit machine and the only way you could avoid like, the huge Chernobyl analogy is if you speedran it. A lot of games and shows suddenly get a different vibe once you go "....huh, Aum and the 1970's student protests sure were a thing, huh". It's a bit like how Disco Elysium was initially seen as this "gently caress all ideologies" game.
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Nov 7, 2019 11:40
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It’s also worth remembering that a Japanese story’s politics will use shorthand and issues more specific to the writers, meaning that English speakers are much more likely to not realize certain things are nakedly political (including translators from time to time). Most of the underlying issues of “politics” are fairly universal and can speak to people through those language barriers of course, but it will seem more subtle unless you really do your homework because you missed an immediately recognizable reference a Japanese audience would have caught. Easy example, there’s a scene in Tokyo Godfathers were some college kids are beating up homeless folk in the park, calling it something like “cleaning it up”. Obviously terrible and part of the story’s larger humanization of the unfortunate... and also a ripped from the headlines case from a year or so prior to the movie coming out.
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Nov 7, 2019 12:03
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Max Wilco posted:I think it depends on what you're talking about. Something like Dirty Harry is pretty politically loaded, but something like Spongebob is considerably less so. (I know that's not the best comparison, but you get my point.) 
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Nov 7, 2019 12:04
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=etU6sR5_crE edit: also yeah, the political stuff being different between countries is a good point. people are so ignorant of japanese politics that a lot of them are shocked when they realize that japan has gay pride parades and stuff too, lol.
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Nov 7, 2019 12:32
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One of the biggest clashes one can have is to go read on how the Yakuza basically were intimidating movie directors that would have a problem with making movies that would show them on a bad light, with some considerable assasinations (i honestly wish i could find the braineater review thst wrote to some length about this) and then reading that cutesy tezuka-esque comic on how the Yakuza games were made that sums all possible qualms about starting a development about good yakuza people with "ha, a violent videogame? Did you know that Mario stomps Goombas, which js a violence??"
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Nov 7, 2019 12:46
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Max Wilco posted:I suppose, but I think it's still possible for someone to enjoy something that doesn't line up with their personal politics. https://www.rockpapershotgun.com/2019/06/12/cyberpunk-2077s-e3-demo-has-weak-gunplay-and-unimaginative-stereotypes/ they basicaly tried to make it sound like a chud game(everyone is racist characterture or some poo poo) and the dude got super pissy about the violence. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FknHjl7eQ6o&t you can see alot a bunch of it in here. Eschenique posted:I like Jim Sterlin. But he keeps giving glowing reviews to mediocre games while making them seem awesome and tricking me into buying them. obscidian alwyas said it was gonna be an AA game, its why private division and not its parents company 2k was publishing.
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Nov 7, 2019 13:53
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Dapper_Swindler posted:https://www.rockpapershotgun.com/2019/06/12/cyberpunk-2077s-e3-demo-has-weak-gunplay-and-unimaginative-stereotypes/ Kind of hard to say there's not some chuddiness there when the player character has a line dinging a black Haitian character's accent. It's not overly obvious, but it's there. And I'm surprised you didn't mention that game asset controversy with the fetishy drink advertistment.
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Nov 7, 2019 15:05
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Spark That Bled posted:Kind of hard to say there's not some chuddiness there when the player character has a line dinging a black Haitian character's accent. It's not overly obvious, but it's there. Was that the “girl with DICK!!!!! xDDDD” one or was there another one as well?
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Nov 7, 2019 15:15
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watho posted:Was that the girl with DICK!!!!! xDDDD one or was there another one as well? The first one.
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Nov 7, 2019 15:18
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I really wish CDPR would stop constantly making transphobic jokes and such
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Nov 7, 2019 15:28
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watho posted:I really wish CDPR would stop constantly making transphobic jokes and such it's OK actually because the cis woman who designed the poster thought it was sexy that's an actual argument I've seen
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Nov 7, 2019 15:39
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CYBEReris posted:afaik yahtzee's just a sort of dull and unremarkable bad, whose jokes can be pretty misogynistic and queerphobic but who doesn't stretch his neck out enough to do anything particularly heinous I've read a couple of his books. He's like a cheap knock off of Terry Pratchett with a wit stuck in a problematic 90s sitcom like Friends.
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Nov 7, 2019 15:42
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Spark That Bled posted:Kind of hard to say there's not some chuddiness there when the player character has a line dinging a black Haitian character's accent. It's not overly obvious, but it's there. i did mention it in the original post and i wont defend that, it was weird/dum and problamatic. i get what the devs were trying to do with the setting and everything is exploititable under hellcapitalism but it came off as stupidly tone deaf at the very least. anyway, the "dey" thing is the only dickish thing, but that comes off as the character being a prick rather than evil polish chud devs. the dude running the demo told us how they hired all haitians native speakers for the roles and had them speak genuin haitian creole that if you have an upgrade, the hud auto translates. my issue with RPS was them trying to make the animals look like some evil black gang full of jim crow steriotypes, when they are basicaly just the body builder forum if they were a gang. also a white lady leads them. watho posted:I really wish CDPR would stop constantly making transphobic jokes and such they seemed to have learned from their fuckups and fired the GOG dipshits half a year ago also the gender options in the game seems alot better than what i thought it would be.
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Nov 7, 2019 15:43
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CYBEReris posted:it's OK actually because the cis woman who designed the poster thought it was sexy i thought she was LGBT? the artist.
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Nov 7, 2019 15:43
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Thundercracker posted:I've read a couple of his books. He's like a cheap knock off of Terry Pratchett with a wit stuck in a problematic 90s sitcom like Friends. yeah, i tried listing to one on audible. thats a pretty apt description of it.
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Nov 7, 2019 15:44
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I think the most super obnoxious thing about Japanese politics in anime is Americans deriving a wholly incorrect lesson from it to score points because a glance the tropes used are similar to their own cultural reference points. Psycho-Pass in particular. Where at a glance it looks like Minority Report meets Equilibrium and so looks like a short hand for most dystopian totalitarian works which is that Government=Bad and all the usual claptrap; but the writers were obviously writing for a Japanese audience for whom the notable themes would've been social commentary on Japanese attitudes on conformity and maintaining the negative peace/status quo at all costs. The form of government is just a sort of technobabble handwave.
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Nov 7, 2019 15:45
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Dapper_Swindler posted:i thought she was LGBT? the artist. it’s possible that she’s gay or bi even if she’s cis, doesn’t make it not gross even if she is trans tho
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Nov 7, 2019 15:58
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Internet Personality + Review Thread 3.0+1.0: a problematic 90s sitcom like Friends.
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Nov 7, 2019 16:03
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Eschenique posted:Galaxy brain: Japanese devs hide politics under 10 feet of lolis to the point where no one sees it and when someone points out that the lolis are problematic they get called out for bringing politics into an apolitical game. It's funny every time
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Nov 7, 2019 16:16
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You hosed up now Game Freak https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EIgykByoZwI
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Nov 7, 2019 16:23
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Raenir Salazar posted:Psycho-Pass in particular. Where at a glance it looks like Minority Report meets Equilibrium and so looks like a short hand for most dystopian totalitarian works which is that Government=Bad and all the usual claptrap; but the writers were obviously writing for a Japanese audience for whom the notable themes would've been social commentary on Japanese attitudes on conformity and maintaining the negative peace/status quo at all costs. The form of government is just a sort of technobabble handwave. the writer of psychopass literally wrote an equilibrum fanfiction visual novel tho 
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Nov 7, 2019 16:40
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Raenir Salazar posted:I think the most super obnoxious thing about Japanese politics in anime is Americans deriving a wholly incorrect lesson from it to score points because a glance the tropes used are similar to their own cultural reference points. Part of it also just desensitization to graphic situations through conformity as well, because the "healthy" people can see some really brutal poo poo (eg; anytime a Dominator hits something organic in its Lethal Eliminator, or worse; Destroy Decay, mode) and their Psycho-Pass won't even blip.
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Nov 7, 2019 17:34
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Dapper_Swindler posted:i thought she was LGBT? the artist. She doesn't explicitly say but from the way she describes herself I guess she's bi/pan. The article about it is here: https://www.polygon.com/platform/amp/e3/2019/6/12/18662443/cyberpunk-2077-trans-advertisement-cd-projekt-red-e3-2019 It's an articulate justification of why a cyberpunk hellfuture would commodify and objectify all bodies equally... But the whole point is also undermined by it being a explicit cross-promotion between two modern corporations who also put the dick on weird.
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Nov 7, 2019 17:46
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Setting something during a real war isn’t political because that’s just recounting what happened. Setting something during a fictional war isn’t political, because it’s not real and you’re reading too much into it if you see political themes. The developer chose a fictional war to avoid making a statement on a real war. But either of these become political if they feature a black woman or gay person.
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Nov 7, 2019 17:49
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Dr Christmas posted:Setting something during a real war isn’t political because that’s just recounting what happened. That's the cost of letting people just enjoy things
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Nov 7, 2019 17:55
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Uduy9MnS0rE
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Nov 7, 2019 18:04
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Endorph posted:the writer of psychopass literally wrote an equilibrum fanfiction visual novel tho I was debating whether or not to include an aside, "Gen Urubuchi (the writer for Psycho-Pass) actually did love Equilibrium so there's a tiny amount of misleading substance there" and choose not to because it is distracting and doesn't really help with clarity, at best a footnote. The Equilibrium side of that "meets" doesn't really add anything to the conversation regarding how Americans contextualize dystopia thrillers as being a sober lesson of the dangers of government overreach; I actually characterized it as Minority Reports meets Equilibrium because of the emotion suppression thing which is a background thing in Psycho-Pass. Which in of itself strikes me as a reference to 1984 and Whatshisface saying they'll genetically engineer sexual desire out of humans and any emotion other than raw hate or obedience in order to better control humans; and we know 1984 wasn't an author tract regarding the dangers of leftist policies, but a critique of a specific kind of leftist authoritarianism. Dr Christmas posted:Setting something during a real war isn’t political because that’s just recounting what happened. What's interesting here was an aside in InnuendoStudio's video about how saying something like, "nazi's are bad" is apolitical since the community consensus is so overwhelming and set in stone as to be rendered apolitical. Which implies the inverse, "Nazi's are good" is also apolitical, because no one could reasonably consider such a thing said in earnest. Which reminds me how a lot of Americans see racism as only saying the n-word because they seem to universally believe racism is bad; but they are good, so they can't be racist; racist is only this red line which they dance around but would never willingly cross over. However since there is no consensus on "feminism is good", it is instantly political. And "Stop talking about politics" becomes "stop talking about things that lack consensus"; but someone acting like a nazi is allowed because it's not political; it's gotta be a joke right. Raenir Salazar fucked around with this message at 18:11 on Nov 7, 2019 |
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Nov 7, 2019 18:06
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Raenir Salazar posted:; and we know 1984 wasn't an author tract regarding the dangers of leftist policies, but a critique of a specific kind of leftist authoritarian
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Nov 7, 2019 18:23
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Ghostlight posted:An interesting perspective. Not really? George Orwell was a socialist and volunteered for the Republican side in the civil war. Unless you're taking it in very literal way vs what was meant. Orwell didn't write 1984 to tell people, "Never support socialists ever because Stalin", he wrote it to tell other socialists, "Beware Stalin".
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Nov 7, 2019 18:33
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