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Raenir Salazar posted:I don't really see a meaningful practical distinction between "wrong kind of leftist" and "authoritarians wearing the guise of socialism" and I'm confused myself that you think someone not seeing that distinction as meaningful is surprising when it's common sense. I had a double take when you apparently wrote that the USSR wasn't socialist and Stalinism isn't somehow, a subset of socialist ideology.
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Nov 8, 2019 00:26
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Raenir Salazar posted:I don't really see a meaningful practical distinction between "wrong kind of leftist" and "authoritarians wearing the guise of socialism" and I'm confused myself that you think someone not seeing that distinction as meaningful is surprising when it's common sense. I had a double take when you apparently wrote that the USSR wasn't socialist and Stalinism isn't somehow, a subset of socialist ideology. It's interesting that you don't see a practical difference between someone who espouses a "dangerous" form of an ideal, and someone who pays lip service to an ideal only in order seek or maintain power. As you say, the "wrong kind of leftist" is indeed a leftist - a true tautology, great work - what I am saying is that I don't think Orwell necessarily perceived Stalin's seizure and transformation of the Soviet state apparatus as arising from misplaced socialist ideals on how the state should work but possibly as a break from socialist ideals in favour of the centralisation of power for himself, and that this is reflected not just in the history of the IngSoc party but the clearly anti-socialist nature of the 1984 society wherein socialist ideals are explicitly negated, such as with the codified class system. The fact that the Soviet Union exists within the book and is not the society under which Big Brother ascends to power indicates to me he might have had something more nuanced to say about the USSR than just "wrong socialism" because if he just wanted to comment on the USSR why not just have them cross the channel and institute the actual Soviet state in Britain? Why have the only proposed solution in the text be a fictional book with a title referencing bureaucratic collectivism (which posited that Stalin had moved the Soviet state into a position which could no longer be categorised as capitalist or socialist) written by "Trotsky" calling for revolutionary socialism? The Soviet Union and Stalinism certainly grew from socialist roots, but would a contemporary revolutionary socialist who references a contemporary revolutionary socialist writing that Stalin had betrayed the people and abandoned the Bolsheviks, and contemporary socialist political theory which held that the ideals of Stalinism had transformed the USSR into a state unrecognisable as socialist believe the Soviet Union and Stalinism to be the "wrong kind of left" rather than "no longer left"? I think it's an interesting perspective.
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Nov 8, 2019 00:26
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That's a lot of words that you should have started with instead of "how interesting". quote:As you say, the "wrong kind of leftist" is indeed a leftist - a true tautology, great work I mean no one doubts that a fascist is still a conservative. quote:what I am saying is that I don't think Orwell necessarily perceived Stalin's seizure and transformation of the Soviet state apparatus as arising from misplaced socialist ideals on how the state should work but possibly as a break from socialist ideals in favour of the centralisation of power for himself, and that this is reflected not just in the history of the IngSoc party but the clearly anti-socialist nature of the 1984 society wherein socialist ideals are explicitly negated, such as with the codified class system. There are many steps between Stalin first getting his office and the Purges. I don't think its possibly to really accurately pick a point where the USSR "stopped being socialist" entirely vs being just a different kind of socialist state. Plus the fact it still implemented a large number of socialist policies. The breadtube thread seemed pretty certain that eliminating suspect classes was socialism; and based off that alone I find the idea kinda laughable. quote:The fact that the Soviet Union exists within the book and is not the society under which Big Brother ascends to power indicates to me he might have had something more nuanced to say about the USSR than just "wrong socialism" because if he just wanted to comment on the USSR why not just have them cross the channel and institute the actual Soviet state in Britain? This doesn't really make sense to me. Nothing about literature necessitates this sort of conservation to get its point across. quote:The Soviet Union and Stalinism certainly grew from socialist roots, but would a contemporary revolutionary socialist who references a contemporary revolutionary socialist writing that Stalin had betrayed the people and abandoned the Bolsheviks, and contemporary socialist political theory which held that the ideals of Stalinism had transformed the USSR into a state unrecognisable as socialist believe the Soviet Union and Stalinism to be the "wrong kind of left" rather than "no longer left"? I think it's an interesting perspective. Well it's certainly not wrong; and I think easier to explain to boomers who don't get very much. Which is kinda the original context. The people who think 1984 is a tract against socialism of any stripe are not going to accept any of the premises you laid out.
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Nov 8, 2019 00:52
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do you have a reason to be posting in this thread other than to drag people into these loving abysmal arguments
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Nov 8, 2019 01:02
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'ey philosophers some of us are on our phones ov'a here! At least stop quoting those large rear end chunks of text. How on earth did breadtube thread manage to make this place worse.
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Nov 8, 2019 01:02
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Sarcopenia posted:'ey philosophers some of us are on our phones ov'a here! oh lmao that explains it
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Nov 8, 2019 01:10
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do you have to quote every single person who disagreed with you rather than just going 'fair points all' and then going into your counterargument most everyone disagreeing with you is saying the same thing
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Nov 8, 2019 01:12
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Babysitter Super Sleuth posted:The funniest thing about this is that TheQuartering et al are basically telling on themselves by admitting that their target audience is literal children Yeah, that was my take, too. It seems like these guys' lifeline is getting the algorithm to put them in front of the eyeballs of impressionable children so they can continue spreading right-wing ideology and raising a generation of loyal Nazi whales to run their grift on.
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Nov 8, 2019 01:16
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Raenir Salazar posted:I mean no one doubts that a fascist is still a conservative. Fascism is right wing but I've always understood it as an anti-conservative thing. It's more or less anti-capitalist (at least free market capitalism), anti-communist, anti-liberal, but pro corporatism, violence and authoritarianism.
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Nov 8, 2019 01:21
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I think this Salazar guy really likes arguing. About anything. Endlessly. With multiple quotes. What a great addition to the thread
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Nov 8, 2019 01:27
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Young Freud posted:Yeah, that was my take, too. It seems like these guys' lifeline is getting the algorithm to put them in front of the eyeballs of impressionable children so they can continue spreading right-wing ideology and raising a generation of loyal Nazi whales to run their grift on. Part of it also I think is that these guys depend on algorithm autoplay and sidebar placement on let's play channels to hook new viewers, and that's a group that absolutely is gonna get affected by this from what I can tell, which is probably gonna have a not-insignificant knock-on effect.
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Nov 8, 2019 01:31
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gently caress it, we mentioned Japan a few million words ago and this is an internet personality. Hot take incomong. https://twitter.com/the_moviebob/status/1191823388710440965?s=19 https://twitter.com/the_moviebob/status/1191823394758627331?s=19 https://twitter.com/the_moviebob/status/1191823395832377350?s=19 https://twitter.com/the_moviebob/status/1191823397921214465?s=19
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Nov 8, 2019 01:33
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Take so white you're gonna need shades
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Nov 8, 2019 01:35
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Please stop
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Nov 8, 2019 01:46
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Cease and desist
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Nov 8, 2019 01:57
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I think the reason why people are down on communism is because communism is like 0:3 in its success/failure ratio. People look at how the Soviet Union, China, and Cuba turned out, and go, "Yeah, it all sounds good on paper, but the execution leaves something to be desired."Archer666 posted:gently caress it, we mentioned Japan a few million words ago and this is an internet personality. Hot take incomong. Maybe it was incorrect, but I read that in Japan, the stereotypical image for gay men is associated more to big, muscular, body-building dudes. The illustration of Vincent seems more in line with punk fashion, or something you'd see Gackt wearing. watho posted:i hope this isn’t a hot take but there’s nothing bad about not putting personalized ads on children’s media. Children’s media probably shouldn’t have ads at all actually I think in some parts of Europe (maybe somewhere in Scandanavia), it's forbidden to create advertising targeted toward children.
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Nov 8, 2019 02:32
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Max Wilco posted:
You are correct. The kind of big, burly musclemen you see mostly in gay bars in Shinjuku 2Chome. That Vincent pic has him depicted as an ikemen, a cool man. Chicks dig thin, feminine looking guys like that. Bobert saying that this kind of clothing is only for performance is really hilarious to me since I'm in Japan right now and walk past an entire street of guys like that every day.
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Nov 8, 2019 02:43
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After watching a few channels move over to censoring naughty words, I'm looking forward to a hard turn and obligatory fucks getting added in post for legal purposes.
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Nov 8, 2019 02:47
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If you're gonna hard bleep cursing, just don't curse in the video or do the early 2000's music video blanked word censoring instead, a sharp BEEEEPPP suddenly ringing out in sentences is obnoxious.
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Nov 8, 2019 03:13
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And if you ARE going to do the harsh beeping, go all in instead of still leaving in the occasional swear word. Angry Joe.
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Nov 8, 2019 03:14
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Raenir Salazar posted:That's a lot of words that you should have started with instead of "how interesting". Rick Rude's brand of "sexually threatening" wrestling is notably very different to Gold Dust or Vincent's. Speaking of wrestling, I haven't seen recommended in this thread this channel's brief documentaries(?) about wrestling careers and events but would recommend it to any wrestling-adjacent fans in the thread: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCIf44toFAHLORJ8dwEQkh9g e: fixed channel link because :radium: Ghostlight fucked around with this message at 05:40 on Nov 8, 2019 |
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Nov 8, 2019 03:19
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I belive he does that because of the time Too Much Swearing got the vid de-monitized. So going for some of each keeps the Youtube Algorithem happy. Has someone mentioned how much The Algorithem sucked today? Because it does.
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Nov 8, 2019 03:22
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Japan has had plenty of wrestlers like goldust lmao
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Nov 8, 2019 03:23
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Yardbomb posted:If you're gonna hard bleep cursing, just don't curse in the video or do the early 2000's music video blanked word censoring instead, a sharp BEEEEPPP suddenly ringing out in sentences is obnoxious.
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Nov 8, 2019 03:26
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Yardbomb posted:If you're gonna hard bleep cursing, just don't curse in the video or do the early 2000's music video blanked word censoring instead, a sharp BEEEEPPP suddenly ringing out in sentences is obnoxious. 
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Nov 8, 2019 04:39
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Junpei Hyde posted:Japan has had plenty of wrestlers like goldust lmao Danshoku Dino is a literal walking gay panic joke, not to mention Razor Ramon Hard Gay.
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Nov 8, 2019 04:56
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Doctor Reynolds posted:That reminds me, are there any youtube channels that review books? I can think of Bobbin Threadbare, and.... that's it. Bobbin Threadbare has a Youtube channel? Bobbin Threadbare has a Youtube channel! He's legit one of my favorite posters on SA so I'm glad I learned about this today. Also, as far as book channels go Pop Arena does genre fiction (he did the entire Animorphs series, is currently working through the "wilderness years" Doctor Who novels, and also does a Goosebumps novel every month) when he's not doing Nick Knacks, and Dominic Noble reviews adaptations so he frequently covers novels as original source material. Mr.Radar fucked around with this message at 05:03 on Nov 8, 2019 |
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Nov 8, 2019 04:58
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Terrible Opinions posted:Only in so far as the Congo Free State is a subset of centrism, with a constant need to remind people it's a bad path they must avoid. In 1984 was pretty obviously that an authoritarian cult of personality is entirely self-justifying and the ideology it claims literally does not matter. Hence all of the imagery taken directly from fascist Italy. isnt big brother not even real though or its implied as much? like you said, all the idiology is bullshit and just in service of keeping the boot slamming on the face and catching disidents.
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Nov 8, 2019 05:10
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The 'Animal Farm is anticommunist' thing does get a lot more complicated because the 1954 animated film was literally anticommunist propaganda made by the CIA, which Orwell would probably have been quite annoyed about if he'd lived to see it.
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Nov 8, 2019 05:17
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Dapper_Swindler posted:isnt big brother not even real though or its implied as much? like you said, all the idiology is bullshit and just in service of keeping the boot slamming on the face and catching disidents. The implication I always got was that Big Brother was an actual person at some point, but the actual person is long dead and their actual role in the party was probably not nearly as central as advertised
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Nov 8, 2019 05:30
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Dapper_Swindler posted:isnt big brother not even real though or its implied as much? like you said, all the idiology is bullshit and just in service of keeping the boot slamming on the face and catching disidents. Max Wilco posted:I think the reason why people are down on communism is because communism is like 0:3 in its success/failure ratio. People look at how the Soviet Union, China, and Cuba turned out, and go, "Yeah, it all sounds good on paper, but the execution leaves something to be desired."
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Nov 8, 2019 05:33
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A Gnarlacious Bro posted:It's a lot more complicated when you are arguing over political and material realties rather than faith. The nerd fight can't resolve into prayer or good feelings when you think your comrade is going to ruin the whole project by being naive.
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Nov 8, 2019 05:38
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Salvador Allende's socialist-ish government failed. Minus one point for the socialist success rate.
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Nov 8, 2019 05:41
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Terrible Opinions posted:Define success, because by most metrics capitalism has a higher rate of existing and failing. Like Cuba is by plenty of metrics nicer to live in than vast swaths of the US. Rate of success in creating generally high standard of living and average happiness is definitely won by social democracies that were already rich thanks to colonialism draining the life out of some less fortunate nations. With Cuba, I was thinking in regards to those who fled the country under Castro.
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Nov 8, 2019 06:47
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Yeah and Tories fled America.
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Nov 8, 2019 06:52
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Darth Walrus posted:The 'Animal Farm is anticommunist' thing does get a lot more complicated because the 1954 animated film was literally anticommunist propaganda made by the CIA, which Orwell would probably have been quite annoyed about if he'd lived to see it. People keep banging on about the CIA but its actually incredibly faithful to the book, and a lot of the sequences are quite impressive for the time, the only substantial change is the ending where the pigs lose. It still maintains its humans are capitalist exploiters, and the pigs are bad because they've become replacement humans message. As anti-communist propaganda goes its about as effective as Zapata, a 1950s film that used the American authorities own ignorance of Communism to get a film past the censors praising one of Mexico's most committed Anarchocommunist revolutionaries.
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Nov 8, 2019 10:02
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The new Youtube thing, as I understand it, came about because every time you watch a video, YT collects data on you. However, it is quite illegal to collect such data on kids. (I think anybody under 13, but don't quote me on that). So the FTC told them to cut that poo poo out. Youtube's solution, as usual, has all the finesse of a drunk rhinoceros : Always assume every viewer of videos aimed at kids is a child. And throw an algorithm at the problem because that's their answer to everything. Uploaders will also have to specify weither their video is aimed at kids. So, what happens to videos that are aimed at children ? Well : - No directed ads - Won't show up in notifications - Comments will be disabled This will kill channels aimed at kids that rely on YT ad money and will make growing an audience much more difficult. The only youtubers who are concerned and/or panicking about this are toy reviewers who's audience aren't kids. Think people who talk about GI Joes, or Transformers. Or guys like Pixel Dan. Toy collectors, basically, who's audience are other toy collectors or nostalgic people. If it was just a matter of checking a box that says "my content isn't aimed at children" there wouldn't be a problem. But since people would just lie (those cgi "hello johny, yes papa" vids spring to mind as a channel that would probably lie) Youtube will unleash an algorithm. The fear is that toy channels will be swept up in this, the only hope is there will be a fast an easy appeal process. (Hah !) The other solution is for toy channels to go full on AVGN. "This here is a motherfucking Cobra Commander toy from 1987 ! Check this shitstain of a figure out ! It's shiny and silver, like your moms favorite dildo !" OK, that may actually be pretty funny. Unrelated edit : Nice to see the Heroes of Wrestling video is back up on Kim's Channel ! I love that one ! Bad Wolf fucked around with this message at 10:59 on Nov 8, 2019 |
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Nov 8, 2019 10:52
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Imagine giving a poo poo about Jeremy "Hamhocks" "The Quartering" Hambly ever Banning him for life is the only good thing WotC has done in the last five years
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Nov 8, 2019 11:45
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Mr.Radar posted:Bobbin Threadbare has a Youtube channel? Bobbin Threadbare has a Youtube channel! He's legit one of my favorite posters on SA so I'm glad I learned about this today. Animorphs is loving lit and KA Applegate rules A) not a transphobe shithead like some other children's authors B) when people complained about the end of the series being the start of another war her response was "yeah that's how war works, the machine churns on, sucks doesn't it? Remember that when you're old enough to vote" C) is fine with someone hosting ebooks of the entire series despite them being for sale on Amazon D) wrote remnants which is some absolutely horrifying poo poo
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Nov 8, 2019 11:48
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Hold on. Animorphs is a real thing? I thought those covers people linked at times were just Onion style parodies.
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Nov 8, 2019 12:30
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