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I think the Two Rivers lads are great examples of all three ways to become a noble: 1) Marry in - Mat 2) The people proclaim you one - Perrin 3) You proclaim yourself one and kill anyone who disagrees - Rand
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Nov 8, 2019 00:11
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Atlas Hugged posted:I think the Two Rivers lads are great examples of all three ways to become a noble: Nobody has ever killed to join the nobility
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Nov 8, 2019 00:28
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Atlas Hugged posted:I think the Two Rivers lads are great examples of all three ways to become a noble: Perrin married into the nobility way before Mat ever did.
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Nov 8, 2019 00:28
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all the two rivers folk got with the nobility
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Nov 8, 2019 00:40
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WoT is canceled for being insufficiently Marxist.
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Nov 8, 2019 02:14
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Rand kills a fair portion of nobility fwiw
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Nov 8, 2019 02:42
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Yeah but they wuh all bad
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Nov 8, 2019 02:43
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How are u posted:WoT is canceled for being insufficiently Marxist. There's a weird line in book 12 about how Aes Sedai healing should be free to all, in priority order based on need
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Nov 8, 2019 02:50
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Khizan posted:Perrin married into the nobility way before Mat ever did. Technically true, but I'm talking thematically. Perrin spends a lot of time in the Two Rivers stomping around growling at anyone who calls him "Lord Perrin" until someone sits him down and tells him that nobles don't just spring forth from the ground. Houses rise and fall during tumultuous times and during these particular tumultuous times, it's the House of Aybara that's rising. Now shut up and let us serve you. mewse posted:Nobody has ever killed to join the nobility Pretty sure this is a thing warlords would do all the time. It's less a question of "joining" the nobility and more "replacing it with a new nobility of my choosing" though.
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Nov 8, 2019 10:44
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Rand became royalty though not nobility.
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Nov 8, 2019 11:17
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I guess that would depend on what titles he used in Tear but I can't remember those off the top of my head.
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Nov 8, 2019 11:52
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EvilTaytoMan posted:Rand became royalty though not nobility. royalty are the noblest of nobles
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Nov 8, 2019 14:16
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Atlas Hugged posted:
The first king or noble definitely had to kill to make a noble class.
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Nov 8, 2019 18:51
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Atlas Hugged posted:I guess that would depend on what titles he used in Tear but I can't remember those off the top of my head. Rand is approached by the Council of Nine (well only 8 at the time) after he kills Sammael. Mattin Stepaneos, the former king, disappeared (he was hiding in the White Tower) so they offer the Laurel Crown to Rand. They tell Rand that he saved the city from starvation by continuously sending grain from Tear and that the people would not oppose him ruling. He takes the crown, which they rename the Crown of Swords.
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Nov 8, 2019 19:10
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ONE YEAR LATER posted:Rand is approached by the Council of Nine (well only 8 at the time) after he kills Sammael. Mattin Stepaneos, the former king, disappeared (he was hiding in the White Tower) so they offer the Laurel Crown to Rand. They tell Rand that he saved the city from starvation by continuously sending grain from Tear and that the people would not oppose him ruling. He takes the crown, which they rename the Crown of Swords. still killed a noble
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Nov 8, 2019 20:08
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ulmont posted:Much more about the death metal outline of the Wheel of Time here: https://thewertzone.blogspot.com/2018/01/the-genesis-of-wheel-of-time.html Cool link this btw
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Nov 8, 2019 20:25
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ONE YEAR LATER posted:Rand is approached by the Council of Nine (well only 8 at the time) after he kills Sammael. Mattin Stepaneos, the former king, disappeared (he was hiding in the White Tower) so they offer the Laurel Crown to Rand. They tell Rand that he saved the city from starvation by continuously sending grain from Tear and that the people would not oppose him ruling. He takes the crown, which they rename the Crown of Swords. All good but not the pedantic argument I was having. Someone above was saying that Rand somehow wasn't noble because he was royal. My point was that he didn't become royal until later on (when he's crowned in Illian) and in the meantime still served as the head of the High Lords of Tear, with or without a specific title. Given how stratified their society was, it seems like they would have to invent justifications to serve under him and so the Rand al'Thor in Book 4+ would be treated as a noble of Tear regardless of any legitimate claim he had on the country.
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Nov 8, 2019 20:25
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I clearly missed that part of the conversion, I apologize, I thought you were saying he was king of Tear.
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Nov 8, 2019 20:39
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Atlas Hugged posted:All good but not the pedantic argument I was having. Someone above was saying that Rand somehow wasn't noble because he was royal. My point was that he didn't become royal until later on (when he's crowned in Illian) and in the meantime still served as the head of the High Lords of Tear, with or without a specific title. Given how stratified their society was, it seems like they would have to invent justifications to serve under him and so the Rand al'Thor in Book 4+ would be treated as a noble of Tear regardless of any legitimate claim he had on the country. ONE YEAR LATER posted:I clearly missed that part of the conversion, I apologize, I thought you were saying he was king of Tear. Oh yeah, no, I don't think he ever receives a title in Tear. Off the top of my head, aside from the flowery Lord of the Morning crap, he earns only like... Car'a'carn King of Illian (gently caress SAKE I CANT GET THAT RIGHT EITHER) Coramoor as his political titles. VAGENDA OF MANOCIDE fucked around with this message at 22:18 on Nov 8, 2019 |
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Nov 8, 2019 20:43
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Technically Perrin rules Two Rivers as his Steward, so he's a king there
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Nov 8, 2019 20:49
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Also the Shienarans were convinced he was a lord lmao
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Nov 8, 2019 21:17
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I guess WOT came first, but that always reminded me of Ax always saying Prince Jake in Animorphs
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Nov 8, 2019 21:23
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Comrade Blyatlov posted:Also the Shienarans were convinced he was a lord lmao That's going to be a fun B plot of an episode when Lan makes him behave like a Lord of the borderlands to screw with Moiraine and the Shienarans. Assuming it doesn't get cut.
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Nov 8, 2019 22:16
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VAGENDA OF MANOCIDE posted:That's going to be a fun B plot of an episode when Lan makes him behave like a Lord of the borderlands to screw with Moiraine and the Shienarans. Yeah, that whole set of scenes is way funnier on a reread when you get whats going on Its just Rand going "Why do I need to do this weirdass thing?" and Lan acting all mysterious
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Nov 8, 2019 22:49
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Its extra goofy because the prefix "al'" indicates royalty or nobility in the borderlands, but in the Two Rivers its just a part of your name.
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Nov 8, 2019 23:11
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Also Rand did all three methods of becoming a noble as well as technically being born into it
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Nov 8, 2019 23:54
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Also, I originally went through the series on audiobook, so for like half of the first book I thought his name was Randall Thor
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Nov 9, 2019 00:04
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Rand al'Thor ... Randall Flagg... Are they brothers??
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Nov 9, 2019 00:58
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Rand is technically a bastard, though. He wouldn't be the first to legitimize himself through military conquest, but it's not like Andor ever recognizes his status or heritage. Also, he never marries to my knowledge. Dude gets around but he never settles down. I just figured the High Lords of Tear accepted the Lord Dragon as noble enough and came up with whatever justifications they needed to in order to see him that way. And the ones that couldn't were the ones that rebelled. And Rand of course had to kill a bunch of them before they finally came over to his side.
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Nov 9, 2019 03:07
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Atlas Hugged posted:Rand is technically a bastard, though. He wouldn't be the first to legitimize himself through military conquest, but it's not like Andor ever recognizes his status or heritage. No he's not. He was just born out of his mother's second marriage to Janduin.
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Nov 9, 2019 03:31
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The Lord Bude posted:No he's not. He was just born out of his mother's second marriage to Janduin. But does Andor recognize the dissolution of the first marriage? Like I only see them doing that if they accept that she gave up all claims to the throne, which I don't think they do. And if they did do the latter, he's not noble by birth.
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Nov 9, 2019 03:45
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VAGENDA OF MANOCIDE posted:That's going to be a fun B plot of an episode when Lan makes him behave like a Lord of the borderlands to screw with Moiraine and the Shienarans. Three drops!
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Nov 9, 2019 05:02
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Atlas Hugged posted:Rand is technically a bastard, though. He wouldn't be the first to legitimize himself through military conquest, but it's not like Andor ever recognizes his status or heritage. Also, he never marries to my knowledge. Dude gets around but he never settles down. Randland doesn't care about bastardy. The concept is never mentioned in the books, not even in relation to Elayne's kids where it would definitely be relevant. Basileus777 fucked around with this message at 05:12 on Nov 9, 2019 |
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Nov 9, 2019 05:08
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I was just thinking about that actually. In GRRM-Land that would be setting up a succession crisis in a generation. Here it's just like whatevs.
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Nov 9, 2019 05:42
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How are u posted:Rand al'Thor ... Randall Flagg... quote:Life was such a wheel that no man could stand upon it for long. And it always, at the end, came round to the same place again.
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Nov 9, 2019 06:27
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Atlas Hugged posted:But does Andor recognize the dissolution of the first marriage? Like I only see them doing that if they accept that she gave up all claims to the throne, which I don't think they do. And if they did do the latter, he's not noble by birth. Andor's royalty is matrilineal(is that even the right word for how it's set up?) so I don't think it matters, much. It's gone through a couple succession crises so going by example you have to present a claim to the throne both by your relation to the royal line AND by the support you garner from the current strong houses (who don't also put forth their own claim) and so Rand may marry someone to strengthen their claim but couldn't present one of his own. Like, remember, a good chunk of Randland would never countenance a male ruler to begin with. And for Andor in particular, Tigraine or Shaiel's marriage status when considering the nobility of their children is irrelevant. e: To revise, uh, Taringail was a dumbass for even thinking it could've worked. e2: Anyway in a patrilineal society you'd be like who knows who Roger had a son with, but in a matrilineal society ... they just don't have to care about who the sperm donor is. There's no argument that Morgase gave birth to Galad, Gawyn, and Elayne, and that Elayne would be the one to inherit. VAGENDA OF MANOCIDE fucked around with this message at 23:18 on Nov 9, 2019 |
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Nov 9, 2019 06:39
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If you don't think that Rand's bonding ceremony with his 3 gals wasn't essentially a marriage ceremonythen I don't know what to tell you.
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Nov 10, 2019 01:52
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EvilTaytoMan posted:If you don't think that Rand's bonding ceremony with his 3 gals wasn't essentially a marriage ceremonythen I don't know what to tell you. It's not a question of whether or not he's effectively married, it's a question of if it would offer him any legal claims to being an Andoran noble, which isn't really something Robert Jordan seemed all that interested in exploring. The point is especially moot however since whatever claims or rights or nobility the ceremony might theoretically have given him, as far as Andor is concerned, Rand is dead.
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Nov 10, 2019 02:29
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Atlas Hugged posted:It's not a question of whether or not he's effectively married, it's a question of if it would offer him any legal claims to being an Andoran noble, which isn't really something Robert Jordan seemed all that interested in exploring. The point is especially moot however since whatever claims or rights or nobility the ceremony might theoretically have given him, as far as Andor is concerned, Rand is dead. Rand would be recognized as a noble as much as Galad or Perival was if had ever cared to expose who his mother was. I don't understand why this would be in question. His mother was a Mantear, he's an Andoran noble. There is no such thing as illegitimate births in this setting. Basileus777 fucked around with this message at 03:01 on Nov 10, 2019 |
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Nov 10, 2019 02:57
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I'm not disputing that. I'm saying he never bothered or cared about it and he primarily claimed authority by declaring himself the Dragon Reborn. I was responding specifically to the notions that he was noble by birth and marriage, both of which are technically true but not thematic.
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Nov 10, 2019 03:21
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