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Epicurius posted:What is this thing? Is there a reason someone wrote misspelled words making up nonsense phrases on a renaissance painting? Ok boomer
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Nov 12, 2019 13:33
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Telsa Cola posted:I think the real find of the thread is someone who somehow never became aware of doge memes until now. to be fair it's from like 2012 which, internet-wise, is about as long ago as doge was from the great pyramids
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Nov 12, 2019 13:45
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What’s a good way to say “ok boomer” in Latin?
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Nov 12, 2019 13:58
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Grand Prize Winner posted:I don't feel qualified to answer any of those but you'd probably want to specify time period, social class, and location. At least you tried!  Well, how about like 9 CE under Augustus? What was it like to go to Teutoburg and get your rear end kicked, and what was life like in a roman province? Or Roma herself? Edgar Allen Ho posted:What’s a good way to say “ok boomer” in Latin? maximopere, vetus culus ? Translate isn't helping a lot
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Nov 12, 2019 14:10
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Edgar Allen Ho posted:What’s a good way to say “ok boomer” in Latin? Ok Patrician?
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Nov 12, 2019 14:26
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Edgar Allen Ho posted:What’s a good way to say “ok boomer” in Latin? An historian I follow on Twitter used "Bene, senex".
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Nov 12, 2019 14:38
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Safety Biscuits posted:An historian I follow on Twitter used "Bene, senex". 
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Nov 12, 2019 14:45
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Edgar Allen Ho posted:What’s a good way to say “ok boomer” in Latin? this got me thinking- I wonder this about all kinds of languages, contemporary and ancient, but did they do sarcasm in Roman or other ancient cultures? My German teacher taught us that the way we do sarcasm in English, using tone to convey, doesn't really translate and can be confusing for non-English speakers
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Nov 12, 2019 14:49
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Peanut Butler posted:this got me thinking- I wonder this about all kinds of languages, contemporary and ancient, but did they do sarcasm in Roman or other ancient cultures? My German teacher taught us that the way we do sarcasm in English, using tone to convey, doesn't really translate and can be confusing for non-English speakers The guy I posted just upthread who told Pompey to start stomping was presumably being sarcastic.
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Nov 12, 2019 15:01
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Tias posted:So I've gotten into A Legionary's Life, Rome and History of Rome cast at the same time and have gotten really stoked about Roman history Mary Beard has some good documentaries that focus more on daily life than politics. Mostly available in full on youtube. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AUNe61Kyigc
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Nov 12, 2019 15:17
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Thanks boo 
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Nov 12, 2019 19:04
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Here is a few more with Mary Beard: Caligula : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PhiJcedqTjM Pompeii, Life and death: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k0zBG5R7TXU Mary Beard's Ultimate Rome, Empire without limit (Part 1 of 4): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LL_acQHNs-o
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Nov 12, 2019 19:29
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skasion posted:Can’t post this without the punchline: The version in Rome's pretty good as well. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JCc67pn98Q8
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Nov 12, 2019 19:36
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Cicero's speech to Anthony (by proxy of another senator) is possibly the best part of the show.
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Nov 12, 2019 19:46
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If anything it's much kinder than the source material. (Which is of course too long for the show, but they left out the part comparing him to a catamite.)
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Nov 12, 2019 20:06
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I can't appreciate any Cato but Christopher Walken's Cato. I feel like that version of Julius Caesar was watched by people in high school Latin in the 2000s and literally no one else.
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Nov 12, 2019 20:52
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Christopher Walken Cato and Rome Cato were both too old. Cato was 49 when he died. I don't know why Rome made him a 60 year old.
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Nov 12, 2019 20:59
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Epicurius posted:Christopher Walken Cato and Rome Cato were both too old. Cato was 49 when he died. I don't know why Rome made him a 60 year old. Cato spent his whole life acting like an old fart, he can’t very well complain that people think of him as having been one
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Nov 12, 2019 21:01
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Yeah, didn't Cato cast himself as a sixty year old some time in his early twenties?
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Nov 12, 2019 21:23
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Halloween Jack posted:Yeah, didn't Cato cast himself as a sixty year old some time in his early twenties? I don't believe so, and I'm constantly puzzled by the utter contempt that a bunch of people in this thread hold the guy in. He had his flaws, but he generally viewed positively by historians, and pretty consistently has been throughout history.
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Nov 12, 2019 22:04
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Epicurius posted:I don't believe so, and I'm constantly puzzled by the utter contempt that a bunch of people in this thread hold the guy in. He had his flaws, but he generally viewed positively by historians, and pretty consistently has been throughout history. *edit: nvm don't want to risk bringing modern politics int this, even if just for a comparison Dalael fucked around with this message at 22:08 on Nov 12, 2019 |
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Nov 12, 2019 22:06
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Dalael posted:*edit: nvm don't want to risk bringing modern politics int this, even if just for a comparison Whoever your modern political guy is, I'd be surprised if a lot of people had strong feelings about him or her 2000 years from now.
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Nov 13, 2019 00:44
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Was Cato the one that tried to kill him self, didn’t succeed, woke up and then ripped the bandages off to finish the job? Pretty metal dude. I’m reading Holland’s Rubicon now and I’m digging the drama all these dudes in the late republic had with each other. Especially Clodius, that dude seems like he finds a way to piss in everyone’s Cheerios
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Nov 13, 2019 02:27
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Epicurius posted:I don't believe so, and I'm constantly puzzled by the utter contempt that a bunch of people in this thread hold the guy in... Short version, we all (nerds), or maybe just me, grew up reading books about Rome by aristocratic Brits that hated the ‘mob’. In other words, the people.
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Nov 13, 2019 02:50
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sometimes I wonder if classical athens was really as much of a shitshow as it appears to have been, or if that's just the product of viewing it through two and a half millenia of aristocratic propaganda
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Nov 13, 2019 02:59
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Epicurius posted:Whoever your modern political guy is, I'd be surprised if a lot of people had strong feelings about him or her 2000 years from now. Probably right. To me, Cato always sounded like nothing more than an obstructionist but i'll admit i dont really know enough. It just seems like whenever you hear his name, its because he's objecting to something.
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Nov 13, 2019 03:12
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Bob A Feet posted:Was Cato the one that tried to kill him self, didn’t succeed, woke up and then ripped the bandages off to finish the job? That was him. quote:Pretty metal dude. I’m reading Holland’s Rubicon now and I’m digging the drama all these dudes in the late republic had with each other. Especially Clodius, that dude seems like he finds a way to piss in everyone’s Cheerios The thing about the Roman Senate is that it wasn't that many people. It was this little group of oligarchic families that were all knew each other socially, intermarried, and carried down family rivalries and grudges. Combine that with the fact that all of Roman society was built on personal relationships, favor trading, and subordination to more powerful individuals, and a value system that stressed domination over one's peers and family honor above everything, and you get a bunch of....interesting interpersonal relationships. Remulak posted:The Assassination Of Julius Caesar: A People's History Of Ancient Rome by Michael Parenti. I know about Parenti, but he's more a political scientist than a historian, and most of his stuff is basically about how oppressive modern America is. And, I don't know. The Roman mob was an important, and often destabilizing force in Roman politics, especially in the later Republic and early Empire, which is all tied in with the Roman system of patronage and the fact that Rome was so big and had such a large underclass who's big strength was in their physical presense, and could be used by ambitious politicians (like the aforementioned Clodius, or for that matter, his rival Milo, or Gaius Marius, or Sulla, or Pompey, or Caesar, or Antony, or whoever to disrupt their rivals. Dalael posted:Probably right. Cato is probably best known for trying to block Caesar, yes. (They had political differences, but beyond that, a lot of that comes out of the fact that Caesar had sex with Cato's half-sister and that got publicly revealed on the floor of the Senate during a debate that Cato and Caesar were having). Epicurius fucked around with this message at 03:17 on Nov 13, 2019 |
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Nov 13, 2019 03:14
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I keep thinking of people I knew who were balding in their freshmen year of college for Cato, but wasn't it Caesar who was balding? I think there's a tendency to imagine most historical people as more elderly, both from reverence for the time period and the circumstances of older times often thrusting responsibility on people at far younger ages. It gets even worse in periods where everyone wore powdered wigs cosplaying as old people.
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Nov 13, 2019 03:25
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SlothfulCobra posted:I keep thinking of people I knew who were balding in their freshmen year of college for Cato, but wasn't it Caesar who was balding? In the Roman Republic specifically, it was common for people to commission busts of themselves that were more lined/aged looking than they actually were. Augustus changed the trend; he was always depicted in statues and coins as youthful-looking, even though he lived to age 75.
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Nov 13, 2019 03:39
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SlothfulCobra posted:I keep thinking of people I knew who were balding in their freshmen year of college for Cato, but wasn't it Caesar who was balding? Caesar was balding. Cato had a full head of hair. Here's a marble bust of Caesar, probably done in his lifetime  And here's a bronze bust of Cato, probably not done in his lifetime, but probably generally accurate to the way he looked (full head of hair, really prominent ears) 
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Nov 13, 2019 03:46
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Caesar should probably get that giant bulge on the back of his head checked out.
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Nov 13, 2019 03:52
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Epicurius posted:I don't believe so, and I'm constantly puzzled by the utter contempt that a bunch of people in this thread hold the guy in. He had his flaws, but he generally viewed positively by historians, and pretty consistently has been throughout history. Largely my understanding is that traditional historians admired Cato's support of the oligarchical hierarchy, and blamed Caesar for ending the republic. This was very much aided by the fact that winners write the history books, and Rome's wealthy elites delighted in using Caesar's story as a parable of the hazards of jeopardizing the nobility. Modern historians have largely begun questioning this view, seeing Cato's patrician elitism less favorably and Caesar's proto-nationalism as a more meritocratic alternative. Personally I see Cato and his aristocratic followers as effectively crashing the Republic rather than allowing plebeian leaders access to the levers of power.
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Nov 13, 2019 03:58
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I don’t know if caesar was proto nationalist. He was def democratic and authoritarian which obviously pissed off Cato.
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Nov 13, 2019 04:04
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Caesar was a mass murderer on the scale of Hitler. Cato did nothing wrong.
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Nov 13, 2019 04:06
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Kaal posted:Largely my understanding is that traditional historians admired Cato's support of the oligarchical hierarchy, and blamed Caesar for ending the republic. This was very much aided by the fact that winners write the history books, and Rome's wealthy elites delighted in using Caesar's story as a parable of the hazards of jeopardizing the nobility. Modern historians have largely begun questioning this view, seeing Cato's patrician elitism less favorably and Caesar's proto-nationalism as a more meritocratic alternative. Personally I see Cato and his aristocratic followers as effectively crashing the Republic rather than allowing plebeian leaders access to the levers of power. Is a dictatorship really preferable to an oligarchy, though? OK, in this case probably yes, but you don't have to be super-right-wing to consider oligarchies less bad than dictatorships as a matter of general principle.
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Nov 13, 2019 04:07
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In that context a reformist dictator was obviously preferable. I mean “preferable to who” is the I guess underlying question.
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Nov 13, 2019 04:08
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OctaviusBeaver posted:Caesar was a mass murderer on the scale of Hitler. OctaviusBeaver posted:Cato did nothing wrong.
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Nov 13, 2019 04:13
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Kaal posted:Largely my understanding is that traditional historians admired Cato's support of the oligarchical hierarchy, and blamed Caesar for ending the republic. This was very much aided by the fact that winners write the history books, and Rome's wealthy elites delighted in using Caesar's story as a parable of the hazards of jeopardizing the nobility. Modern historians have largely begun questioning this view, seeing Cato's patrician elitism less favorably and Caesar's proto-nationalism as a more meritocratic alternative. Personally I see Cato and his aristocratic followers as effectively crashing the Republic rather than allowing plebeian leaders access to the levers of power. Cato was a plebian as were Pompey, Bibulus, Cicero and most of the other prominent Optimates. The plebian/patrician split wasn't really a major thing by that point. There were tons of rich and powerful plebs.
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Nov 13, 2019 04:13
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OctaviusBeaver posted:Cato was a plebian....
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Nov 13, 2019 04:15
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And the one who really deserves the blame for destroying the Roman Republic was Sulla, an Optimate who came from a patrician family but grew up poor.
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Nov 13, 2019 04:17
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