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Ugly In The Morning
Jul 1, 2010
Pillbug

food court bailiff posted:

The whole relationship between the Moclans on board is honestly really good, especially compared to how badly it could have swung in the other direction. It's really cool to see a relationship in a sci-fi show that really digs into the drama and effort involved in making a marriage work.

Is there a third season of Orville? Is it just not up on Hulu?

The third season of the Orville won't be out for a while, and it'll only be on Hulu.

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Toshimo
Aug 23, 2012

He's outta line...

But he's right!
Please tell me about The Orville's decontamination procedures.

Neito
Feb 18, 2009

😌Finally, an avatar the describes my love of tech❤️‍💻, my love of anime💖🎎, and why I'll never see a real girl 🙆‍♀️naked😭.

food court bailiff posted:

The whole relationship between the Moclans on board is honestly really good, especially compared to how badly it could have swung in the other direction. It's really cool to see a relationship in a sci-fi show that really digs into the drama and effort involved in making a marriage work.

Is there a third season of Orville? Is it just not up on Hulu?

Second season just wrapped up in April; we're waiting on the third season. Seems like Fox is taking a chance on the show (though that's probably more Fox Will Do Anything Seth Says than actual faith in the show). Supposedly the new season will air "Late 2020".

purple death ray
Jul 28, 2007

me omw 2 steal ur girl

ulex minor posted:

this thing with family guy to me is...

with South Park we get a lot of commentary about how it helped normalise anti-Jewish vernacular, made it more ordinary.

which is fair enough, but I don't see anywhere near enough noise about how Family Guy treats it, which was sort of mindboggling to me.

South Park has Cartman being a dumb anti-semite but also being the sort of rear end in a top hat character a bunch of people would think are cool. Kyle is also a fun character who is a jewish character with a voice who points out how loving dumb Cartman is.

In family guy the only mainly obvious jewish character is just a bit player A. Wyatt Mann cartoon. what's the joke? that it's SO outrageous to have a character like that only being a huge Jewish stereotype?

It's the difference between offensive humor and just being offensive and hoping that will carry you because you can't actually think of anything funny. It's painfully obvious when someone is doing the latter

Casey Finnigan
Apr 30, 2009

Dumb ✔
So goddamn crazy ✔
I was one of the three Jewish kids in my school when the "Wish Upon a Weinstein" Family Guy special aired and I honestly didn't even understand how to process it at the time. I loved the show then so I was like "these are good stereotypes! We are good with numbers and math, let's be proud of it!"

Now that I'm an adult and still have to listen to some of my dumber co-workers sing "I need a.... Jeeew" I'm like holy gently caress, how did this even air?

What you can say in the "defense" of Family Guy and against South Park is that while Family Guy was pretty disgusting whenever the topic of Judaism came up, at least it didn't come up often. South Park had Cartman screaming "you goddamn Jew!" in practically every single episode.

sassassin
Apr 3, 2010

by Azathoth

ulex minor posted:

In family guy the only mainly obvious jewish character is just a bit player A. Wyatt Mann cartoon. what's the joke? that it's SO outrageous to have a character like that only being a huge Jewish stereotype?

People seem to like it in Woody Allen's movies.

LIVE AMMO COSPLAY
Feb 3, 2006

ulex minor posted:

this thing with family guy to me is...

with South Park we get a lot of commentary about how it helped normalise anti-Jewish vernacular, made it more ordinary.

which is fair enough, but I don't see anywhere near enough noise about how Family Guy treats it, which was sort of mindboggling to me.

South Park has Cartman being a dumb anti-semite but also being the sort of rear end in a top hat character a bunch of people would think are cool. Kyle is also a fun character who is a jewish character with a voice who points out how loving dumb Cartman is.

In family guy the only mainly obvious jewish character is just a bit player A. Wyatt Mann cartoon. what's the joke? that it's SO outrageous to have a character like that only being a huge Jewish stereotype?

The Cleveland Show writers were a bunch of white people who found it side-splittingly hilarious that black women have to hide their real hair.

PubicMice
Feb 14, 2012

looking for information on posts
Reading my way through this thread, but cartoon chat in the early pages inspired me to jump up here and ask if Ed, Edd, and Eddy is as good as I remember it being.

Neito
Feb 18, 2009

😌Finally, an avatar the describes my love of tech❤️‍💻, my love of anime💖🎎, and why I'll never see a real girl 🙆‍♀️naked😭.

PubicMice posted:

Reading my way through this thread, but cartoon chat in the early pages inspired me to jump up here and ask if Ed, Edd, and Eddy is as good as I remember it being.

Much like the simpsons, it turns out there's a ton of stuff in it that you likely weren't old enough to get, and it's pretty brilliantly written.

Aesop Poprock
Oct 21, 2008


Grimey Drawer

sassassin posted:

People seem to like it in Woody Allen's movies.

McFarlane is all about 70s-80s tropes cause it’s when he grew up and what he loves and finds funny, so he’s trying for Mel Brooks material without the talent or the, you know, being Jewish part because he’s extremely thick headed about how his “wacky” exaggerated stereotypes are legitimately offensive

Ugly In The Morning
Jul 1, 2010
Pillbug

Neito posted:

Much like the simpsons, it turns out there's a ton of stuff in it that you likely weren't old enough to get, and it's pretty brilliantly written.

I love when cartoons do poo poo like that. The Grim Adventures of Billy and Mandy had a no-poo poo God Emperor of Dune episode that definitely flew right over the audience's heads.

Laterite
Mar 14, 2007

It's Gutfest '89
Grimey Drawer

Toshimo posted:

Please tell me about The Orville's decontamination procedures.

Accordion Man
Nov 7, 2012


Buglord
Ed, Edd, n' Eddy is great and it actually had a completely conclusive and satisfying ending.

PubicMice
Feb 14, 2012

looking for information on posts

Neito posted:

Much like the simpsons, it turns out there's a ton of stuff in it that you likely weren't old enough to get, and it's pretty brilliantly written.

I'm just hoping that unlike the Simpsons, it doesn't have anything that's awkward and problematic in hindsight.

RBA Starblade
Apr 28, 2008

Going Home.

Games Idiot Court Jester

Neito posted:

Much like the simpsons, it turns out there's a ton of stuff in it that you likely weren't old enough to get, and it's pretty brilliantly written.

Ohhh it was a waterboarding joke

sassassin
Apr 3, 2010

by Azathoth

Aesop Poprock posted:

McFarlane is all about 70s-80s tropes cause it’s when he grew up and what he loves and finds funny, so he’s trying for Mel Brooks material without the talent or the, you know, being Jewish part because he’s extremely thick headed about how his “wacky” exaggerated stereotypes are legitimately offensive

It's not like he's the only writer/developer/producer contributing to the show.

dirksteadfast
Oct 10, 2010

PubicMice posted:

I'm just hoping that unlike the Simpsons, it doesn't have anything that's awkward and problematic in hindsight.

There might be a few things that are borderline just because the language of PC was different back then, but from my recollection the show as a whole was surprisingly not mean-spirited despite how violent it could get. There wasn’t a designated punching bag for the show, and bad behavior was by-and-large punished and shown as a character flaw. Probably the most awkward thing was the weird sexual harassment sisters, but the gender flip and over-the-top nature of it makes it hard to judge if it was problematic.

trickybiscuits
Jan 13, 2008

yospos

LIVE AMMO COSPLAY posted:

The Cleveland Show writers were a bunch of white people who found it side-splittingly hilarious that black women have to hide their real hair.
South Park and anything by Seth MacFarlane should just have the words "Made by straight middle-class white guys" flashing on the screen at every moment

Aesop Poprock posted:

McFarlane is all about 70s-80s tropes cause it’s when he grew up and what he loves and finds funny, so he’s trying for Mel Brooks material without the talent or the, you know, being Jewish part because he’s extremely thick headed about how his “wacky” exaggerated stereotypes are legitimately offensive
Recently I've been rewatching Ash Vs. Evil Dead and appreciating how well-made it is because the scenes themselves are good- writing, acting, timing, like that. On the commentary for one episode Bruce Campbell said that if you remove the horror elements, one scene would work in a thriller, a drama, a drawing-room comedy film, because it's just a good scene. As opposed to all the by-the-numbers horror films I've seen in the past what, fifteen or twenty years that just made a list of things from other, better horror movies and then went down checking them off. Jump scare? Check. Creepy creature? Check. Weird shadows? Check.

So the same thing for Seth MacFarlane, but with humor.

sassassin
Apr 3, 2010

by Azathoth

trickybiscuits posted:

South Park and anything by Seth MacFarlane should just have the words "Made by straight middle-class white guys" flashing on the screen at every moment

Bit disrespectful to ignore the non-white and/or male contributors whose names do flash up during episodes, but whatever helps the narrative.

CharlestheHammer
Jun 26, 2011

YOU SAY MY POSTS ARE THE RAVINGS OF THE DUMBEST PERSON ON GOD'S GREEN EARTH BUT YOU YOURSELF ARE READING THEM. CURIOUS!
Sassain going all in on defending Seth McFarland is the least surprising thing I’ve seen

Dirt Road Junglist
Oct 8, 2010

We will be cruel
And through our cruelty
They will know who we are

Ugly In The Morning posted:

I love when cartoons do poo poo like that. The Grim Adventures of Billy and Mandy had a no-poo poo God Emperor of Dune episode that definitely flew right over the audience's heads.

There's an episode of Spongebob where, I'm not sure I remember exactly what was going on, but Sally is trying to track down a worm, touches the ground, and dramatically shouts, "WORM SIGN!"

I still laugh when I remember that.

somepartsareme
Mar 10, 2012

Diggle Hell is a Real
(Swingin') Place

Dirt Road Junglist posted:

There's an episode of Spongebob where, I'm not sure I remember exactly what was going on, but Sally is trying to track down a worm, touches the ground, and dramatically shouts, "WORM SIGN!"

I still laugh when I remember that.

Rockman Reserve
Oct 2, 2007

"Carbons? Purge? What are you talking about?!"

Noted white guy Cherry Chevapravatdumrong, right, right.

Parakeet vs. Phone
Nov 6, 2009

CharlestheHammer posted:

Sassain going all in on defending Seth McFarland is the least surprising thing I’ve seen

Especially since one episode of Family Guy literally ended on a gag about the fact that they only have one female writer. No idea on the racial makeup of the writer's room, to be fair.

mllaneza
Apr 28, 2007

Veteran, Bermuda Triangle Expeditionary Force, 1993-1952




Parakeet vs. Phone posted:

Especially since one episode of Family Guy literally ended on a gag about the fact that they only have one female writer. No idea on the racial makeup of the writer's room, to be fair.

If they were referring to Cherry Chevapravatdumrong, then there was a person of Thai descent in the room.

HopperUK
Apr 29, 2007

Why would an ambulance be leaving the hospital?
He did a good version of 'Ya Got Trouble' at the Proms that one time. I hate Family Guy but I enjoyed that.

the_steve
Nov 9, 2005

We're always hiring!

I think with regards to the South Park vs. Family Guy comparison, the reason that South Park gets more flak for its casual racism was because Cartman was one of those characters who got the Al Bundy treatment.
You were supposed to recognize from the get-go that he was a bad person, but, he ended up becoming a popular character, so he started getting wins - or at least got to put points on the board.

Family Guy, for lack of a better phrase, did a lot of their bigotry "ironically", or at least managed to put forth that facade.
"Haha, look, Peter is doing blackface, but he's dumb and everyone else knows blackface is wrong!" plus, he'd learn by the end of the episode that he was wrong and apologize and the status would return to quo.

Plus, Cartman's antisemitism was/is a consistent character trait for years.
Family Guy rotates their bigotry around. Trans people one week, then move on to asians, then black people, a bit of misogyny, take a bye week to dunk on the main cast for their flaws, and circle back around to bashing on LGBTQ people.

Ghost Leviathan
Mar 2, 2017

Exploration is ill-advised.
South Park at least has a Jewish main character who's treated as a human being and explores different facets of being Jewish rather than exclusively using it for a joke.

Some of the jokes that land... varyingly are the ones where stereotypes turn out to be true, and no less completely absurd for it, like when Cartman starts a Christian rock band and tells Token to go get the bass guitar that's in his parents' basement and that he'll be able to play it because he's black, and Token himself is surprised and exasperated when he finds out there is a bass guitar in there and he can play it with no practice. (Should not be surprising this episode ends with Token beating Cartman up)

nishi koichi
Feb 16, 2007

everyone feels that way and gives up.
that's how they get away with it.
south park is why people called me token because i could play bass :argh:

Push El Burrito
May 9, 2006

Soiled Meat
South Park just did an episode about trans people in sports and it already didn't age well.

the_steve
Nov 9, 2005

We're always hiring!

Push El Burrito posted:

South Park just did an episode about trans people in sports and it already didn't age well.

Wait, another one?
They did one years ago, with Garrison's sex change and Kyle wanting to be black/his dad wanting to be a dolphin.

Aesop Poprock
Oct 21, 2008


Grimey Drawer

the_steve posted:

Wait, another one?
They did one years ago, with Garrison's sex change and Kyle wanting to be black/his dad wanting to be a dolphin.

I’m assuming it’s more about the current talking point about trans women having an unfair advantage in women’s sports as opposed to just the idea of being trans. The garrison sex change and dolphin thing was so awful with how it portrayed trans people that I give them no benefit of the doubt that their views have changed much for the better

Beachcomber
May 21, 2007

Another day in paradise.


Slippery Tilde
South Park singlehandedly ignited 'Ginger' bullying in the US, to the extent that my brother was driven to the brink by people telling him he had no soul.

It wasn't even a thing in the US before that.

RaspberrySea
Nov 29, 2004

Watch out! A POIsonous snake!
South Park had another trans/non binary episode after the Garrison nonsense that was actually pretty good. Cartman gets his comeuppance for being an rear end in a top hat pretending to be "transginger" to get his own private bathroom at school, and the ending lesson about trans people in bathrooms was "The school decides to get rid of the transgender bathroom and allow anyone to use the bathroom with which they are most comfortable, thus foiling Cartman's plans. For those who are bothered by transgender people, a new designation is made to keep them away from the normal people who do not care: cissy bathrooms."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Cissy

I'm not caught up on the newest seasons yet, so I haven't seen the sports one though.

Krispy Wafer
Jul 26, 2002

I shouted out "Free the exposed 67"
But they stood on my hair and told me I was fat

Grimey Drawer

MorgaineDax posted:

South Park had another trans/non binary episode after the Garrison nonsense that was actually pretty good. Cartman gets his comeuppance for being an rear end in a top hat pretending to be "transginger" to get his own private bathroom at school, and the ending lesson about trans people in bathrooms was "The school decides to get rid of the transgender bathroom and allow anyone to use the bathroom with which they are most comfortable, thus foiling Cartman's plans. For those who are bothered by transgender people, a new designation is made to keep them away from the normal people who do not care: cissy bathrooms."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Cissy

I'm not caught up on the newest seasons yet, so I haven't seen the sports one though.

That's part of the problem. South Park can be funny and not cruel, but then they double down on the cruel anyway.

John Murdoch
May 19, 2009

I can tune a fish.

dirksteadfast posted:

There might be a few things that are borderline just because the language of PC was different back then, but from my recollection the show as a whole was surprisingly not mean-spirited despite how violent it could get. There wasn’t a designated punching bag for the show, and bad behavior was by-and-large punished and shown as a character flaw. Probably the most awkward thing was the weird sexual harassment sisters, but the gender flip and over-the-top nature of it makes it hard to judge if it was problematic.

Rolf and Jimmy kinda stand out, the former being a ~weird foreigner~ stereotype and the latter being an unsubtlely coded """sissy""". But at the same time they're rarely the butt of jokes and aren't treated differently by the other kids so something something land of contrasts.

Sir Lemming
Jan 27, 2009

It's a piece of JUNK!

Casey Finnigan posted:

I was one of the three Jewish kids in my school when the "Wish Upon a Weinstein" Family Guy special aired and I honestly didn't even understand how to process it at the time. I loved the show then so I was like "these are good stereotypes! We are good with numbers and math, let's be proud of it!"

Now that I'm an adult and still have to listen to some of my dumber co-workers sing "I need a.... Jeeew" I'm like holy gently caress, how did this even air?

It didn't, originally. But later on it got this whole "lost episode" mythical status which helped DVD sales. The first actual airing of it was reruns on Adult Swim.

My memory's a little fuzzy but I think for it to eventually air on Fox, they had to change Peter singing "Even though they killed my Lord" to "I don't think they killed my Lord", but I don't know what the status of that edit is currently.

But anyway, yeah, it was in fact very controversial at the time.

Casey Finnigan
Apr 30, 2009

Dumb ✔
So goddamn crazy ✔

John Murdoch posted:

Rolf and Jimmy kinda stand out, the former being a ~weird foreigner~ stereotype and the latter being an unsubtlely coded """sissy""". But at the same time they're rarely the butt of jokes and aren't treated differently by the other kids so something something land of contrasts.

I'm pretty sure Rolf was made by Danny Antonucci as a reference to how he saw the Italian members of his family growing up. As someone else who has an Italian immigrant parent I'd say he's pretty accurate as far as "this is what second-generation immigrant kids think their foreign family is like."

I remember when I was young and first went to visit my family's house in Italy, seeing that they really did have chickens and sheep, and they really did do a lot of heavy-rear end farm labor to grow things to sell for extra money. I didn't expect Rolf to be so accurate.

Alaois
Feb 7, 2012

life has many doors, edboy

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sweet geek swag
Mar 29, 2006

Adjust lasers to FUN!





Sir Lemming posted:

It didn't, originally. But later on it got this whole "lost episode" mythical status which helped DVD sales. The first actual airing of it was reruns on Adult Swim.

My memory's a little fuzzy but I think for it to eventually air on Fox, they had to change Peter singing "Even though they killed my Lord" to "I don't think they killed my Lord", but I don't know what the status of that edit is currently.

But anyway, yeah, it was in fact very controversial at the time.

I don't think there is really any difference in offensiveness between those two lines, because the attitude behind them is exactly the same.

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