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I think your supposed to go "oh this would be hosed up IRL, good think it's just a fun element of my fantasy inspire space opera based on classic pulp adventure"
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Nov 19, 2019 17:25
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the X-Wing novels were good because it was just pew-pew starships without the Jedi bullshit
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Nov 19, 2019 17:25
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some things are less subtle than others. like in tpm when obi-wan refers to anakin as a "pathetic life-form" and the two jedi treat jar jar like a subhuman. these are unsubtle clues that the jedi are not the heroes you thought they were
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Nov 19, 2019 17:25
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One of the big reasons that people didn't like the PT was that they were expecting the Jedi to be great wise leaders of a utopian society, but it turns out they are hypocritical liberal cops propping up capitalism. Not the only reason, mind you. But a lot comes down to not realizing that George Lucas understands, for example, that the hero's journey is (at best) a narrative which lends itself very easily to fascism.
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Nov 19, 2019 17:30
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Though this is Jar Jar they're talking about
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Nov 19, 2019 17:30
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Hodgepodge posted:In contrast, the Wachowskis may not have realized they were struggling with gender issues when they directed the Matrix, but understanding that they are trans allows one to understand the entire film differently in ways which emerge from the text of the film itself. For example, Trinity is obviously to some degree Neo's feminine self. Thats not really unusual in symbolism terms, though- everyone has both masculine and feminine aspects to their identity, those being social constructs, and engaging with this is part of any number of mystical approaches to self-development. But the scene where Neo meets Trinity for example, reads totally differently from a perspective which acknowledges the possibility of a transgendered selfhood. Neo meets his feminine self and immediately confesses that he thought she was a guy, and she replies "most guys do." Knowing that the directors would come to understand themselves as transgendered, that comes very close to an outright statement of something they may not have even realized about themselves at the time. Also it really helps temper the libertarian aspects of the film, which really helps with rewatching it at this point. The Matrix was also heavily inspired by Ghost in the Shell, and the central philosophical problem of GitS is whether the "authenticity" of the self and the lived experience has any inherent value. The conclusion being that authenticity doesn't matter, and you shouldn't reject the opportunity to transition into a greater form out of some fear that you'll lose it. Which is also why the American Ghost in the Shell is one of the worst adaptations ever made. Just thinking about it is pissing me off.
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Nov 19, 2019 17:35
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Pener Kropoopkin posted:The Matrix was also heavily inspired by Ghost in the Shell, and the central philosophical problem of GitS is whether the "authenticity" of the self and the lived experience has any inherent value. The conclusion being that authenticity doesn't matter, and you shouldn't reject the opportunity to transition into a greater form out of some fear that you'll lose it. I think western adaptations almost always strip anything buddisty out of stuff like that because it's too sad or "nihilistic". Sometimes I think the whole reason anime is so popular with teens is that even the trashiest poo poo has a higher chance of presenting an honest existential dilemma than like most mass market western media stuff for kids.
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Nov 19, 2019 17:39
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I am entirely okay with a reading of the prequels that its about the Jedi hubris that blows up the galaxy because their heads are firmly up their own asses, in fact I thought that was pretty obvious from any reasonable viewing; that doesn't change the fact that they're boring as hell
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Nov 19, 2019 17:52
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A Gnarlacious Bro posted:I think western adaptations almost always strip anything buddisty out of stuff like that because it's too sad or "nihilistic". Sometimes I think the whole reason anime is so popular with teens is that even the trashiest poo poo has a higher chance of presenting an honest existential dilemma than like most mass market western media stuff for kids. I wouldn't even say the central thesis of GitS is inherently Buddhist, because issues of authenticity and apotheosis have also been significant themes of Western philosophy. The American GitS has a very dumb American insecurity about the desire for an authentic life, because it makes the Major trans-racial for reasons that don't make any sense, and when she discovers her true origins she rejects apotheosis in favor of getting in touch with her true birth mother and living her true authentic life as a Japanese. It's an extremely reactionary attitude that only Americans could have - since you've got millions of people trying to 23 and me their own ethnic origins as if not knowing where your ancestors came from is some meaningful absence from life. Just imagine if the Major was actually Italian and she rejects becoming a god of the net so she can go back to tha family and learn how to makea tha sauce. Marone! That's a spicy takoyaki!
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Nov 19, 2019 17:52
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Pener Kropoopkin posted:I wouldn't even say the central thesis of GitS is inherently Buddhist, because issues of authenticity and apotheosis have also been significant themes of Western philosophy. The American GitS has a very dumb American insecurity about the desire for an authentic life, because it makes the Major trans-racial for reasons that don't make any sense, and when she discovers her true origins she rejects apotheosis in favor of getting in touch with her true birth mother and living her true authentic life as a Japanese. It's an extremely reactionary attitude that only Americans could have - since you've got millions of people trying to 23 and me their own ethnic origins as if not knowing where your ancestors came from is some meaningful absence from life. Sure, I just meant that yeah the validity of the "authentic self" is not something that's going to be interrogated in a mass market cartoon in the west but comes up in mass market asian stuff of even low quality.
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Nov 19, 2019 17:56
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Hodgepodge posted:One of the big reasons that people didn't like the PT was that they were expecting the Jedi to be great wise leaders of a utopian society, but it turns out they are hypocritical liberal cops propping up capitalism. See the thing here is that looking at the original trilogy theres some stuff like the whole "are droids slaves" thing and the reference to Triumph of the Will and so on, but the story doesn't really work if you want to say that Lucas was trying to tell a story where the hero's journey is bad (compare Dune, where its pretty obvious). Of course you can read it against the intention of the author and of course that is more or less what the prequels are doing, but I don't think that the OT is like a really deep cover Vervohoven or something
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Nov 19, 2019 17:57
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Pener Kropoopkin posted:The Matrix was also heavily inspired by Ghost in the Shell, and the central philosophical problem of GitS is whether the "authenticity" of the self and the lived experience has any inherent value. The conclusion being that authenticity doesn't matter, and you shouldn't reject the opportunity to transition into a greater form out of some fear that you'll lose it. i mean it isn't perfect but https://youtu.be/cAPDFwHjUf8 is p. good for a guy who also like to draw bbd gangbangs Hodgepodge has issued a correction as of 18:05 on Nov 19, 2019 |
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Nov 19, 2019 17:59
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StashAugustine posted:See the thing here is that looking at the original trilogy theres some stuff like the whole "are droids slaves" thing and the reference to Triumph of the Will and so on, but the story doesn't really work if you want to say that Lucas was trying to tell a story where the hero's journey is bad (compare Dune, where its pretty obvious). Of course you can read it against the intention of the author and of course that is more or less what the prequels are doing, but I don't think that the OT is like a really deep cover Vervohoven or something It isn't satirical until the PT, but I do think he wanted the viewer to realize that there's more than a black and white fairy tale beneath the surface of the OT. And also for their parents to buy, like, so many toys.
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Nov 19, 2019 18:02
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StashAugustine posted:I am entirely okay with a reading of the prequels that its about the Jedi hubris that blows up the galaxy because their heads are firmly up their own asses, in fact I thought that was pretty obvious from any reasonable viewing; that doesn't change the fact that they're boring as hell Lucas's movies never confront the contradictions of the universe because they're all trying to do the epic hero's journey to have a satisfying narrative, but at least they're there. The Disney movies on the other hand do the liberal thing where it recognizes the contradictions and questions them, but ultimately reaffirms them. Rei gets the chance to destroy the Jedi/Sith binary but rejects it because uh the Sith are mean and being mean is bad. It's good to not be bad. If there weren't any Jedi we wouldn't have a franchise.
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Nov 19, 2019 18:03
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StashAugustine posted:See the thing here is that looking at the original trilogy theres some stuff like the whole "are droids slaves" thing and the reference to Triumph of the Will and so on, but the story doesn't really work if you want to say that Lucas was trying to tell a story where the hero's journey is bad (compare Dune, where its pretty obvious). Of course you can read it against the intention of the author and of course that is more or less what the prequels are doing, but I don't think that the OT is like a really deep cover Vervohoven or something i'm pretty sure he became annoyed with the fans and the prequels are in part a creation of spite where he wanted to tear down their heroes also the prequels are an interesting fictionalization of the fall of the weimar republic
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Nov 19, 2019 18:05
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Pener Kropoopkin posted:Lucas's movies never confront the contradictions of the universe because they're all trying to do the epic hero's journey to have a satisfying narrative, but at least they're there. The Disney movies on the other hand do the liberal thing where it recognizes the contradictions and questions them, but ultimately reaffirms them. Rei gets the chance to destroy the Jedi/Sith binary but rejects it because uh the Sith are mean and being mean is bad. It's good to not be bad. If there weren't any Jedi we wouldn't have a franchise. its like the marx quote, except it's the first time as myth, the second as (satirical) tragedy, and the third time as farce
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Nov 19, 2019 18:07
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Star Wars eu gave us the wonderful romance between the Cantina wolf man and space lamprey and detailed the bartender abandoning his robo racism by befriending a robot blender to juice Greedo’s corpse in, so I would never call it bad been re-reading the Ennis Punisher comics and I gotta say not a lot of love for rap  or nu-metal 
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Nov 19, 2019 18:08
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The System MAstery guys are doing a podcast on the old Star Wars EU where they slowly read through it, it owns. https://systemmasterypodcast.com/category/expounded-universe/
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Nov 19, 2019 20:59
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Serf posted:let me correct myself here, i think lucas and avellone detest the fans of star wars, or at least treat them with derision. which honestly, star wars fans deserve. the fixation on space magic and laser swords, well into adulthood, is pretty dire. there are deeper themes, as we've discussed, but if you ask people to look at them they recoil in disgust The gundam fans are right. the pathetic moralizing of the story is vastly inferior to the mechs
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Nov 19, 2019 21:04
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I don't really like star wars tbh
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Nov 19, 2019 21:28
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mandatory lesbian posted:I don't really like star wars tbh Neat, which 80s science fiction or fantasy do you like then?
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Nov 19, 2019 21:48
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durr I hate sports ball
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Nov 19, 2019 21:49
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star wars has nice aesthetics but is bad in every other way
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Nov 19, 2019 21:50
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lets go mechs baby love the mechs
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Nov 19, 2019 21:51
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(seeing Dozle Zabi in a Big Zam) now dis is what I voted for baby
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Nov 19, 2019 21:58
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coathat posted:The gundam fans are right. the pathetic moralizing of the story is vastly inferior to the mechs the fans are almost always wrong
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Nov 19, 2019 21:59
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I don't really like star wars tbh
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Nov 19, 2019 23:00
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mandatory lesbian posted:I don't really like star wars tbh Which 1980s science fiction or fantasy do you like, then? Back to the future?
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Nov 20, 2019 00:33
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the UK election debate tonight had a stage that looked like Tron
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Nov 20, 2019 01:45
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what was corbyn's time on the light cycle?
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Nov 20, 2019 01:51
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Over Easy posted:Droids are not slaves. It's like if your couch was programmed to say "ouch" every time you sat on it. Just real perverse world building that makes the star warp universe feel so alien and alive I thought I was being ridiculous enough, but apparently not: yes of course droids are enslaved, they have volition intelligence and self awareness.
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Nov 20, 2019 02:10
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sebmojo posted:I thought I was being ridiculous enough, but apparently not: yes of course droids are enslaved, they have volition intelligence and self awareness. you have no idea how long arguments about this went on in CineD. you do not know the i mean, no one is here to specifically talk about star wars so i guess it makes sense that there would be way more people willing to actually think about star wars for the 1.5 seconds it takes to grasp the extremely obvious, or at least actually discuss the ideology involved in interpretation honestly
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Nov 20, 2019 02:22
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Hodgepodge posted:you have no idea how long arguments about this went on in CineD. you do not know the I mean there's a chinese room argument that they're just programmed to look like they have awareness, but the chinese room is and always has been epic dumb bull poo poo for idiots, no droid ever does anything but act like a person quote:"Trurl! Our perfection is our curse, for it draws down upon our every endeavor no end of unforeseeable consequences!" Klapaucius said in a stentorian voice. "If an imperfect imitator, wishing to inflict pain, were to build himself a crude idol of wood or wax, and further give it some makeshift semblance of a sentient being, his torture of the thing would be a paltry mockery indeed! But consider a succession of improvements on this practice! Consider the next sculptor, who builds a doll with a recording in its belly, that it may groan beneath his blows; consider a doll which, when beaten, begs for mercy, no longer a crude idol, but a homeostat; consider a doll that sheds tears, a doll that bleeds, a doll that fears death, though it also longs for the peace that only death can bring! Don't you see, when the imitator is perfect, so must be the imitation, and the semblance becomes the truth, the pretense a reality! Trurl, you took an untold number of creatures capable of suffering and abandoned them forever to the rule of a wicked tyrant.... Trurl, you have committed a terrible crime!" sebmojo has issued a correction as of 03:28 on Nov 20, 2019 |
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Nov 20, 2019 03:24
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sebmojo posted:I mean there's a chinese room argument that they're just programmed to look like they have awareness, but the chinese room is and always has been epic dumb bull poo poo for idiots, no droid ever does anything but act like a person I mean, as relatively weak as the Roman/Greek/Christian/Kantian argument that we should treat animals well despite the belief that they are somehow automatons because of the habits and qualities that doing/not doing so cultivates is compared to literally every other belief system is, it does remain a strong argument that we should not allow even non-sentient torture dolls. Also for Kant this also applied to children because Reason was a loving fetish in the Enlightenment and his (very real) genius was thoroughly and consistently articulating that paradigm.
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Nov 20, 2019 05:18
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Stairmaster posted:the prequels are watchable not really just the fact everything is shot with green screen with no practical effects and minimal actual scenery alone makes it unwatchable not even touching the script, the acting, etc
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Nov 20, 2019 08:11
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Percelus posted:not really There's more miniatures and practical effects in the Prequels than in the Sequels. And in the Originals, actually. They went for a shiny golden aesthetic for the shiny golden age.
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Nov 20, 2019 09:30
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MonsieurChoc posted:There's more miniatures and practical effects in the Prequels than in the Sequels. And in the Originals, actually. people always make this correction as if it addresses the movies looking like a ps3 game
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Nov 20, 2019 10:44
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the star wars prequels look way better than any marvel movie ive seen
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Nov 20, 2019 11:56
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Mercrom posted:the star wars prequels look way better than any marvel movie ive seen piss looks better than vomit
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Nov 20, 2019 11:57
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