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Presage Flower has a really, really strong start, but I think that Lost Butterfly is a way better movie.
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Nov 21, 2019 10:01
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so, instead of sex, or vampires, they're doing sex vampires I don't necessarily know if that's the right call but it is certainly a call e: the ending of that movie, gently caress 
WeedlordGoku69 fucked around with this message at 11:31 on Nov 21, 2019 |
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Nov 21, 2019 10:38
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I honestly might like FHA more than FSN. Like it wouldn't work without the latter but the way it lets its characters just breathe a little outside of the immediate danger of a HGW made all of them so much more compelling and the humor is easily the best in the franchise. If you do wind up going through it Booty be on the look out for the voice patch for it, it's worth it.
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Nov 21, 2019 12:27
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My boy Hassan is really scary in the HF movies, it's great.
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Nov 21, 2019 16:35
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LORD OF BOOTY posted:assuming I'm not misremembering, yeah, UBW touches very briefly on Shinji being awful to her but it's mostly for the sake of setting Shinji up as a bigger piece of poo poo than previously assumed (Fate makes him look like a dick but not the total loving monster he is in UBW/HF). none of the Zouken stuff is touched on at all and i don't think he even gets mentioned by name until HF. In Fate he's an attempted school shooter equivalent and completely acknowledged domestic abuser. Him also being rapist is completely unsurprising and very consistent with everything that came before. The real baffling thing is that Shirou doesn't immediately take wizard bloodsports as an excuse to murder Shinji upon hearing he's in the war.
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Nov 21, 2019 17:34
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Terrible Opinions posted:The real baffling thing is that Shirou doesn't immediately take wizard bloodsports as an excuse to murder Shinji upon hearing he's in the war. Shirou is a good boy who wants to be a hero of justice that saves everybody. That includes saving the bad guy from themselves. On some level, Shirou still wants to believe that Shinji can be salvaged and become a good person.
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Nov 21, 2019 17:52
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A good boy doesn't think "I better not piss off Shinji otherwise he'll go back home and beat his sister". Even if murder is off the table, surely inviting Sakura to stay at either of the two, and later three, available houses without abusive dickbags in them wouldn't be. Given that the people someone is harming should always have higher priority than the abuser.
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Nov 21, 2019 18:03
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Terrible Opinions posted:??? YggdrasilTM fucked around with this message at 18:08 on Nov 21, 2019 |
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Nov 21, 2019 18:04
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I mean UFOtable was trying, but it's really hard to buy that anyone would be friends with someone so completely devoid of positive qualities. Like a certified oxygen thief. Especially in the VN.
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Nov 21, 2019 18:15
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Terrible Opinions posted:??? he's a lovely person all around, but in Fate he's the kind of lovely person where seeing Shirou kick his rear end and snap his arm is entirely enough for me, whereas in UBW and HF I want to see him die horribly. e: and yeah, I honestly thought presage flower did a weirdly good job of showing that Shinji used to not be like this and that they're genuinely old friends WeedlordGoku69 fucked around with this message at 19:24 on Nov 21, 2019 |
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Nov 21, 2019 19:21
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Personally, I blame Zouken.
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Nov 21, 2019 19:28
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MonsieurChoc posted:Personally, I blame Zouken. Zouken definitely helped twist Shinjuku, manipulating his fear, his inferiority complex, his ego, and a host of other negative emotions. HOWEVER, even if Shinji is himself a victim of Zouken, he is still his own person and he chose to abuse and belittle Sakura instead of seek to escape from Zouken’s thumb. Part of me does wonder what the hell he could’ve done to resist a powerful Magi though. It’s not like he can go to the authorities/police. I suppose he could’ve appealed to the Tohsakas for help but his ego probably never let him accept that. Plus given Tokiomi willingly gave Sakura to the Matou, what’s to say the Tohsakas don’t approve? The Mage Association would likely be no help either. Just plain running away could potentially work but Zouken has a vested interest in keeping his descendants under his control. I sympathize with the plight Shinji was probably in originally, but once he started taking it all out on Sakura, he goes on the Punch list. [edit] lol at phone's autocorrect changing Shinji to Shinjuku repeatedly. Galaga Galaxian fucked around with this message at 00:39 on Nov 22, 2019 |
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Nov 21, 2019 19:43
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i kind of get the impression that Shinji would have always ended up being kind of a bad person, but Zouken is primarily responsible for watering that bad-person seed into a horrible-monster tree like Zouken is straight up the most evil pile of poo poo in the entire Nasuverse e: i feel like i do cut Shinji a little slack just because Zouken sucks so, so much. like, yeah, with someone like that raising him, no loving wonder he turned out the way he did, it's a miracle he's not somehow even worse. i think literally every bad quality of Shinji is ultimately rooted in something Zouken did; even his abuse of her is primarily rooted in a hosed up complex he has about not being the heir, which Zouken pretty much caused. in a timeline where Shinji Matou isn't raised primarily by Worm Satan, he probably turns out a lot more like Shirou. WeedlordGoku69 fucked around with this message at 20:14 on Nov 21, 2019 |
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Nov 21, 2019 19:59
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A flashback to middle school shows Shinji was always kind of a jerk and egotistical, but he definitely could’ve turned out different in another environment.
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Nov 21, 2019 20:39
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Zouken is the worst but let's not forget that Shinji has had zero good influences from his family. His father was an useless guy that wasn't even born a mage, and his uncle was Kariya who gets beaten up enough in Zero's Irisviel lessons for me to add more to it. Maybe, if Shinji's paternal figures weren't evil, useless, or both, he would've grown to be a decent person.
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Nov 21, 2019 21:18
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Blaze Dragon posted:Zouken is the worst but let's not forget that Shinji has had zero good influences from his family. His father was an useless guy that wasn't even born a mage, and his uncle was Kariya who gets beaten up enough in Zero's Irisviel lessons for me to add more to it.
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Nov 21, 2019 21:38
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i watched like half of lost butterfly earlier today, up to the scene after Sakura runs away from the church gently caress, that's such a good loving scene and the movie completely nailed it, god loving drat the way Sakura's just digging for literally any negative thing about herself she could use to push Shirou away, getting increasingly scared, and he just. keeps. walking. towards her and grabs her in a tight hug and tells her he's always going to be there to protect her gently caress
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Nov 22, 2019 03:58
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I had the same feeling
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Nov 22, 2019 04:02
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like I think Shirou and Sakura are pretty easily the best-written couple in all of Fate/stay night (and probably the whole loving Nasuverse) and scenes like that are the reason why in a nutshell e: more specifically it's the only one of the main three that doesn't... kind of show the seams of it originally being a dating sim. Saber and Rin just kind of fall for Shirou because... he's the protagonist, I guess. (hell, iirc Rin and Shirou are kind of up in the air at the end of UBW, and "yes, they got together" is something F/HA establishes more than the actual route does.) Sakura, meanwhile, has an explicit, coherent reason why she's in love with Shirou (his determination is a huge, huge inspiration to her and his support has basically been the only thing keeping her alive) and vice-versa (she's been in his life for long enough that he literally cannot picture a life without her in it, and her deal feeds his hero complex like crazy). is it the healthiest relationship on planet earth? no, they're honestly kind of codependent through HF. but it's also realistic, and the unhealthy aspects aren't things that could make any reasonable person hate them, just things that make you wonder when the other shoe's going to drop. and the other shoe does drop, and they come out of it even stronger than before. because they genuinely loving love each other. WeedlordGoku69 fucked around with this message at 04:25 on Nov 22, 2019 |
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Nov 22, 2019 04:11
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the best couple is me and bazett
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Nov 22, 2019 04:12
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The best couple was Kayneth and Sola Ui. They were loving made for each other. If only that rear end in a top hat, Diarmuid, hadn't hosed everything up.
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Nov 22, 2019 04:35
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AlternateNu posted:The best couple was Kayneth and Sola Ui. They were loving made for each other. If only that rear end in a top hat, Diarmuid, hadn't hosed everything up. i mean if we're counting side-character couples Caster and Kuzuki are loving #relationshipgoals, i'm just saying out of all the MC/female protag couples most of Nasu's are kind of awkward, really, but he got some loving lightning in a bottle with Shirou and Sakura
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Nov 22, 2019 05:12
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The true married couple of the Type-Moon universe is Maaya Sakamoto and Kenichi Suzumura.
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Nov 22, 2019 05:17
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To this day I still don't know why Rin rescued Shinji from the Grail in UBW.
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Nov 22, 2019 05:26
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Shinji is a really good character to hate. When he kicked Taiga in the middle of the blood fort eating the school I thought that was the high point of my fury but each new route and practically every new scene involving him just enrages me further. She did that in UBW to prove a point right? She has internalized the save everyone thing. I do like the story immediately demanded that as proof that they do want to pursue this ideal they save shinji. Polgas fucked around with this message at 05:37 on Nov 22, 2019 |
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Nov 22, 2019 05:35
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Also, at that point, the universe has frankly dunked on him more than they could ever hope to. Letting him live and stew in it is, theoretically, more fun than just having him die there. Of course, HF makes that kind of... awkward in hindsight, which is probably why they go out of their way to note that the events of UBW make Shinji turn into a decent human being.
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Nov 22, 2019 05:41
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When you become part of an evil dark magic flesh ball, it's probably one of the more convincing things to make one rethink their life
Compendium fucked around with this message at 07:06 on Nov 22, 2019 |
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Nov 22, 2019 05:45
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Yeah in UBW they note that Shinji was scared straight, so he probably wasn't going to cause any trouble after that.
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Nov 22, 2019 06:53
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Also part of Rin's whole deal is that she's way too empathetic to be a "proper" mage. There's no way she'd be down with killing a human being, even through inaction. That's not something you can just do.
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Nov 22, 2019 06:58
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Da Vinci and Ozy
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Nov 22, 2019 07:30
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Rody One Half posted:Da Vinci and Dr. Romani
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Nov 22, 2019 09:12
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Rin have been saving people ever since she was young in fate zero. She is financially poor and still sacrificed her trump card gem that worth half a million to save a classmate she hardly knew. Litterally male Guda.
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Nov 22, 2019 13:39
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Nyaa posted:Rin have been saving people ever since she was young in fate zero. Rin didn't actually succeed in saving anyone in the F/Z novel. Most of that episode was anime filler. Though she does go out with the compass to try and find Kotone, she doesn't actually find her and almost gets ganked by Caster's monsters before being saved by Kariya.
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Nov 22, 2019 13:51
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That's not filler, that's changing something dumb.
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Nov 22, 2019 14:31
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Elephant Parade posted:That only makes hin useless in Zouken's opinion, not, like, objectively. It's Zouken's influence that made him turn out so poorly, not his father's lack of magical talent--if anything, his father being a wizard would've made him hate his own powerlessness even more His father was also a barely functioning alcoholic.
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Nov 22, 2019 14:42
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speaking of changing something dumb (albeit the good kind of dumb), presage flower hosed up the mapo tofu scene, i'm sorry it's technically there, and Kirei sweating and loosening his shirt after he takes a bite is funny, but it really loses something without Shirou's internal monologue about how he hates mapo tofu and thinks it's a garbage food from literal Hell for people without tastebuds but it's kind of like the Archer fight: I have no idea how the gently caress you would keep all that in
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Nov 22, 2019 14:45
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Shinji's clearly kind of a confused character writing wise. He's meant to be Saionji from Utena., which matches pretty 1:1, but the issue is with Saionji the worst he ever does is smack Anthy and be a petty, jealous rear end in a top hat. Which is bad but it's not sexual assault or trying to murder a bunch of people. Shinji simultaneously has to fulfill the roles of Shirou's pitiable friend who let his worst impulses get the better of him because he grew up in an awful environment and also total shithead piling even more awful stuff onto Sakura, and also he has to kickstart a couple of kind of gratuitous sexual assault scenes. I can get the one in HF, but the one with Rin in UBW is totally needless. It almost feels like Sakura originally had two brothers and they got combined into one character, or something.
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Nov 22, 2019 15:24
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Shirou is too nice and him being friends with Shinji is the best evidence for that
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Nov 22, 2019 16:14
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Endorph posted:Shinji's clearly kind of a confused character writing wise. He's meant to be Saionji from Utena., which matches pretty 1:1, but the issue is with Saionji the worst he ever does is smack Anthy and be a petty, jealous rear end in a top hat. Which is bad but it's not sexual assault or trying to murder a bunch of people. Shinji simultaneously has to fulfill the roles of Shirou's pitiable friend who let his worst impulses get the better of him because he grew up in an awful environment and also total shithead piling even more awful stuff onto Sakura, and also he has to kickstart a couple of kind of gratuitous sexual assault scenes. I can get the one in HF, but the one with Rin in UBW is totally needless. It almost feels like Sakura originally had two brothers and they got combined into one character, or something. This sounds about right. In the story of UBW you're clearly meant to feel bad for Shinji even though he spends the whole plot doing bad things; he's out of his depth, and in a weird way kind of innocent. But after HF it's impossible to forgive Shinji or not want bad things to happen to him, and even earlier it's really unclear why Shirou is friends with him. This is sort of what I meant when I said HF is commentary on UBW; the climax of UBW winds up being Rin tops off a life of doing nothing to help Sakura by heroically saving her sister's abuser. So when somebody is reading HF, they're going to be thinking "wow, this outcome is much better than the UBW one". Nasu also uses the threat of women being sexually assaulted too much in his stories I think. It's the main flaw I have to overlook to enjoy them. It's one thing when he writes characters who have a past of sexual abuse, which means the story is kind of about that to a certain extent. But I think stuff like the scene with Rin and Shinji, the Saber wedding dress, or Gilgamesh's fairly explicit rape threats in Fate are just gratuitous and exploitative.
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Nov 22, 2019 17:06
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To be fair, it's really only an issue in FSN. I don't remember it coming up at all in anything written after, and FSN was written fifteen years ago.
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Nov 22, 2019 17:40
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