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Steve Yun posted:Someone correct me if I’m wrong, but touching a BT isn’t how you get caught. What happens is that when a BT bumps into you, they spit a goo ball at the ground at your feet, and that goo ball is what gets you caught. If you can hit a BT and get away before the goo ball, you’re in the clear Yeah you can see them "chasing" you with the little splashes of tar that attempt to home in on you. You can hold your breath and hide from these sometimes and just walk away, avoiding the BT tar mosh pit sequence where they try to drag you over to the Catcher.
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Dec 11, 2019 21:38
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Yeah the "how" of it is a fun reveal that ties into the rest of the game even if you're already guessing that's the case
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Dec 11, 2019 21:39
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Colonel Whitey posted:If I’m being honest I’m still a bit lost on how both Sam and Lou exist in physical reality Lou is just a random BB of no significance other than what Sam attributes to them, and the connection process is actually triggering Sam's own blocked memories.
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Dec 11, 2019 21:42
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Gruckles posted:Lou is just a random BB of no significance other than what Sam attributes to them Yeah this tripped me up; kept trying to find something to tie BB/Lou to and thought I missed something from earlier in the story,
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Dec 11, 2019 21:46
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Gruckles posted:Lou is just a random BB of no significance other than what Sam attributes to them, and the connection process is actually triggering Sam's own blocked memories. Thanks, I’m dumb
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Dec 11, 2019 21:48
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Professor of Cats posted:So I just created my first voidout crater lol by dying to the golden faced lion thingy at south knot city
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Dec 11, 2019 23:00
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Am I a monster? The ending evoked no emotional response to me other than "that was a good game"
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Dec 12, 2019 00:22
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VoLaTiLe posted:Am I a monster? Naw I dont think so. I can see way a lot are but for me, the Kojima-ness of the story telling sterilized a lot of the impact for me.
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Dec 12, 2019 00:38
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Mostly we laughed here. I thought a lot of it was kind of clever but tempered by contrived events so we had a lot of Mystery Science Theater moments going on especially with the whole horribly hatched escape plan and bridgets stupidity. Watching each performer struggle with the quality of the writing was funny too. I think the one time I felt a bit of fondness for the cast was simply walking to the incinerator when the music played
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Dec 12, 2019 00:48
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As a new dad the Mads ending almost got me but they made the pun about his name, and welp. I also thought the process of the main team becoming your friends and teaming up at the end to save you was pretty well done too. That's one kind of story/plot device games can do really well, giving you a personal connection to an ensemble and then giving you feels as they come together and payoff the time you spent getting to know them.
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Dec 12, 2019 00:49
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Intel&Sebastian posted:As a new dad the Mads ending almost got me but they made the pun about his name, and welp. I also thought the process of the main team becoming your friends and teaming up at the end to save you was pretty well done too. That's one kind of story/plot device games can do really well, giving you a personal connection to an ensemble and then giving you feels as they come together and payoff the time you spent getting to know them. Cliff stopping in the middle of his dying breaths to tell Sam all about how he, Cliff, is similar to a cliff in many ways, was the final straw for me. I did not agree with the "kojima needs an editor" crowd until that moment.
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Dec 12, 2019 00:51
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Nah that part rules and the moment where Mads drops the "you said your name was Sam Porter." line is incredible. I'll give you the whole Bridget Expositions at Sam part was real rough but it's pretty clear that the Mads plot is what Kojima was most interested in, and godspeed to that movie gremlin
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Dec 12, 2019 01:01
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I already lived through MGS4 so there's really nothing that can shock me anymore
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Dec 12, 2019 01:06
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Oh no it's great and I loved every minute of it, I was just saying that until that moment I was hangin on by a thread of my "no it doesn't need editing people just need to be more patient" defense. As soon as that spiel started the connection was severed immediately. The knot came unraveled. You see, Sam, a knot is formed when you take many threads- or strands -and spin them together to form a rope. This rope, one long length of it, can then be tied upon and around itself to create a knot, much like the ones you have made by connecting the chiral netw
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Dec 12, 2019 01:06
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lol I can't believe it took you until that pun to finally break against the wordplay onslaught
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Dec 12, 2019 01:12
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Babysitter Super Sleuth posted:Nah that part rules and the moment where Mads drops the "you said your name was Sam Porter." line is incredible. I'll give you the whole Bridget Expositions at Sam part was real rough but it's pretty clear that the Mads plot is what Kojima was most interested in, and godspeed to that movie gremlin
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Dec 12, 2019 01:15
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CJacobs posted:Oh no it's great and I loved every minute of it, I was just saying that until that moment I was hangin on by a thread of my "no it doesn't need editing people just need to be more patient" defense. As soon as that spiel started the connection was severed immediately. The knot came unraveled. You see, Sam, a knot is formed when you take many threads- or strands -and spin them together to form a rope. This rope, one long length of it, can then be tied upon and around itself to create a knot, much like the ones you have made by connecting the chiral netw  Rascyc posted:lol I can't believe it took you until that pun to finally break against the wordplay onslaught Hah come on now; I give CJacobs credit for lasting as long as they did. e: Kojima's dialog is  digitized.
Professor of Cats fucked around with this message at 01:35 on Dec 12, 2019 |
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Dec 12, 2019 01:33
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Rascyc posted:lol I can't believe it took you until that pun to finally break against the wordplay onslaught Oh I came extremely close when Amelie for no reason at all shows up to explain that her True Name is actually based on Amerigo Vespucci's name, a thing that literally never comes up again and then is later revealed by Amelie herself to be a lie when she tells you what the name Amelie really means. That cutscene was just insanity. Like Kojima read a book about the discovery of America and was like drat....... I gotta tell people about this!! It was awesome. Taking Kojima games completely at face value is a really fun way to experience them.
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Dec 12, 2019 01:43
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The way I see it is that Kojima's writing and quirks are entirely valid in the same sense I've watched plenty of hokey, melodramatic B films or odd concept films with awkward scripts but high concept ideas and found them emotionally impactful. His odd mish-mash of sincerity, self-awareness, humor and melodrama is his signature, you may not like that, but personally I find that it's a significant apart of his appeal just as films like Valley of the Dolls, Killing of a Sacred Deer, Birth or Wild at Heart, etc. etc. can be incredibly emotionally resonant despite their bizarre idiosyncrasies and denial of typical metrics of what is quality or believable. Wild at Heart is a pretty apt comparison with its absurdly on-point lines, bizarre diatribes and intense hammy over-emoting, - replete with brutal violence and preposterously goofy script - yet at the end it still manages to be an incredibly touching story about love. The reason a lot of people have been powerfully affected by the game is because they allowed themselves the ability to indulge in Kojima's infectious earnestness. You can laugh at the odd lines but still find the central drama and emotional core to be resonant. They're not mutually exclusive. This is especially important in a medium that practices such incredible, completely self-inflicted restraint dramatically that even having something as simple as a main male protagonist cry when they're sad is usually rejected for very typical, steely under-the-surface portrayals. Conceptually, plot-wise games have little to no restraint, but on an emotional level most of them are terrified of showing anything that might be too much of the melodrama scale. It's a big reason why I loved this game and Kojima is seemingly even battling that over-practiced restraint directly by having virtually every character cry as a in-universe phenomena while also going whole-hog on the script by verbally laying out all their feelings, something which only Sam himself doesn't practice up until the very end, where he finally learns to connect with others by practicing pure, unrestrained love for Lou. it's a stark contrast to an industry that is afraid of coming off corny. Cliff's speech was very powerful to me because you just wouldn't ever have such an emotional, raw and honest scene in most games, certainly not that willingly to forgo literary restraint in favor of full on melodrama and hyper-obvious figurative language. It's soap opera, and soap opera isn't bad, it just has a bad reputation, you don't always have to approach your writing clinically or even practice unerring accuracy in where to pull yourself back to practice restraint and where to let loose the melodrama and on-the-nose monologuing. Back when Twin Peaks was huge people thought it was a parody of soap operas, to which Lynch replied "No, it IS a soap opera." and with all the awkwardness that entails, because Lynch didn't see soap operas as the trash so many people perceived them to be. In an era of TV where you consumed an episode and the rest of the show forgot about it, soap operas were some of the few in existence that offered a continuity, and the daring to inject dark and more human subject matter into network television; most TV back then was terrified of it because TV was meant to be escapist and easily consumed. Kojima's games are soap operas, they're cooky rear end, sci-fi, factional intrigue, Cold War, nano-machine, war crime, and post-apocalypse soap operas. They're not afraid of melodrama, excessive emotion, or brazenly over explained characters and scripts, and just like soap operas he was also one of the leading pioneers in creating over-the-top drama. Just look at the original MGS with Grey Fox, Sniper Wolf, Liquid Snake's bitterness, etc. That kind of stuff was virtually incomparable at the time, bar some FMV adventure games. So no, I wouldn't want them edited or stripped down to be the same, "trying so hard to hit film standards" experiences so many other games are. He's found his niche and just seems to be getting better and better at it.
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Dec 12, 2019 01:50
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I hate it when love blooms even on a battlefield
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Dec 12, 2019 01:58
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CJacobs posted:Oh I came extremely close when Amelie for no reason at all shows up to explain that her True Name is actually based on Amerigo Vespucci's name, a thing that literally never comes up again and then is later revealed by Amelie herself to be a lie when she tells you what the name Amelie really means. That cutscene was just insanity. Like Kojima read a book about the discovery of America and was like drat....... I gotta tell people about this!! It was awesome. Taking Kojima games completely at face value is a really fun way to experience them. https://twitter.com/sm_iron_prince/status/1202374004943859713?s=21
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Dec 12, 2019 02:10
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Lil Swamp Booger Baby posted:it's a stark contrast to an industry that is afraid of coming off corny. Yeah I would wade through a thousand Kojima-esque stupidly earnest game stories than even one more of our thousands of brain dead "grim/gritty" games that all think they're Se7en or something. I completely gave up paying attention to the story in new games somewhere around Dishonored when in the first minute I was like "the earpiece guys are going to betray me" and lo and behold like an hour later...
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Dec 12, 2019 02:14
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Does the chapter 15 end or is it just postgame fun?
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Dec 12, 2019 02:30
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Swamp brought up twin peaks and its worth coming back to that, because writing-wise they both exist in the same sort of arch, joyful intersection of silliness and earnest presentation where yeah, it's ridiculous, but its not trying to make fun of anything, it just enjoys being ridiculous. A lot of the misunderstandings about Kojima as a person seem rooted in trying to portray him as this aloof, pretentious artist who maintains a certain distance, I guess because MGS1 and 2 come off like they're tearing down their genres, but I don't think that's true. Kojima is absolutely the kind of guy who I could see hosting movie nights to watch wild-rear end obscure films like Lifeforce or Re-Animator or Miami Connection, not to make fun of them but just to enjoy the experience of watching cool weird poo poo.
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Dec 12, 2019 02:39
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CJacobs posted:Oh I came extremely close when Amelie for no reason at all shows up to explain that her True Name is actually based on Amerigo Vespucci's name, a thing that literally never comes up again and then is later revealed by Amelie herself to be a lie when she tells you what the name Amelie really means. That cutscene was just insanity. Like Kojima read a book about the discovery of America and was like drat....... I gotta tell people about this!! It was awesome. Taking Kojima games completely at face value is a really fun way to experience them.
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Dec 12, 2019 02:39
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i still wish he'd only repeat each point 2 or 3 times, instead of 7 or 8
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Dec 12, 2019 02:45
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Babysitter Super Sleuth posted:Swamp brought up twin peaks and its worth coming back to that, because writing-wise they both exist in the same sort of arch, joyful intersection of silliness and earnest presentation where yeah, it's ridiculous, but its not trying to make fun of anything, it just enjoys being ridiculous. He just seems like someone who really, really loves whatever clicks with him and there's no inbetween. I think my perspective on him is very much informed by a friend (who loves Kojima no less) that is very similar personality-wise. If he likes something he loves it, and since he isn't hyper-discerning about appearing cultured or distinguished he ends up loving a whole ton of incredibly disparate stuff. He's a huge Robocop fan but was also obsessed with Solaris when I showed it to him, and his attitude is extremely infectious. He loves showing everybody what's got him excited and by proxy via his effusive positivity and sincerity he makes you end up liking things you otherwise might not. I think Kojima wears his influences on his sleeve for just that reason. He's communicating his love for media that inspires and touches him, in a very direct manner in each one of his games and interpreting it all through his own political and emotional lens. He doesn't have a pretentious bone in his body, almost entirely because his work is never malicious, they're just all about the things he loves and how much he wants to make something inspired by that excitement. I find his extremely dense, obtuse plots and exposition more motivated by childlike glee and enthusiasm than self-absorbed and cynical auterism, the same goes for his often inscrutable sense of humor and fourth-wall breaking. He is trying to involve the player in his own enthusiasm by speaking directly to them, letting them in on the joke, but at the same time welcoming them to partake in earnest melodrama as well by joining him in his madcap self-indulgence, because in the end he's just as sincere about the emotions and themes of his work as he is about the humor and his inspirations. Regardless, every medium NEEDS self-indulgence because it fuels ambition and experimentation, not everything has to approach high concept art via solemn or hyper-technical methods.
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Dec 12, 2019 03:01
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Lil Swamp Booger Baby posted:Regardless, every medium NEEDS self-indulgence because it fuels ambition and experimentation, not everything has to approach high concept art via solemn or hyper-technical methods. More to the point, the act of creating art is inherently self-indulgent. When people call something self-indulgent they’re either lazy or lack the vocabulary to talk about art and creativity. Some artists are more willing and enthusiastic about putting their personalities and interests front and center in their art, but no artist avoids doing so completely.
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Dec 12, 2019 05:41
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I actually completely did not see it coming that the memories were Sam's, and not your BB's so that entire sequence that revealed that totally nailed it for me. A cool detail though I noticed when I watched a streamer play it: the part where Mads removes BB Sam out of his pod. Anytime you see one of Sam's flashbacks during the game you're in the pod so you always see this yellowish tint. However there's one flashback where the colors don't have that yellow tint to it. It's so obvious on retrospect but that was a nice little bit of forshadowing that's pretty easy to miss becasue your eyes are still all blurry since you're a tiny bab, you don't think about the lack of yellow
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Dec 12, 2019 05:53
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WaltherFeng posted:Does the chapter 15 end or is it just postgame fun? The latter.
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Dec 12, 2019 06:01
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Macaluso posted:I actually completely did not see it coming that the memories were Sam's, and not your BB's so that entire sequence that revealed that totally nailed it for me. A cool detail though I noticed when I watched a streamer play it: the part where Mads removes BB Sam out of his pod. Anytime you see one of Sam's flashbacks during the game you're in the pod so you always see this yellowish tint. However there's one flashback where the colors don't have that yellow tint to it. It's so obvious on retrospect but that was a nice little bit of forshadowing that's pretty easy to miss becasue your eyes are still all blurry since you're a tiny bab, you don't think about the lack of yellow In addition to this, some other foreshadowing I noticed: After defeating Cliff for the final time in Vietnam, he smiles when he comes to his senses and says that Sam is a Bridge (similar to his speech in the final flashback later). At that point the player is still being led to believe that BB is his son/daughter and him saying that is his way of passing the parenthood torch... but that actually was him realizing that BB is not his son, it's Sam. edit: Also, in the ending of the game, they manage one last tiny bit of foreshadowing just before the reveal. Throughout the game when Sam plugs BB in, it zooms in on BB when it goes to the flashbacks. Through the whole ending sequence it zooms in on Sam instead. CJacobs fucked around with this message at 06:08 on Dec 12, 2019 |
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Dec 12, 2019 06:03
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A fun bit about the ending: As the credits rolled, I asked who Lou was. Who was their mom, their dad? Why did they trigger our flashbacks? What was their purpose? My wife said 'Does it matter? That's your baby now, that's what's important." That stuck with me.
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Dec 12, 2019 06:08
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Also also also (again ending spoilers) the reason Bridget has all those black tendrils connected to her when Sam goes to see her at the start of the game is because she's being connected to the Beach to keep her alive, as she has no connection to her spirit just like Mama. It's cool how many things that are easy to dismiss as Kojima Brand Weirdness actually make total sense with the hindsight given by the later story beats.
CJacobs fucked around with this message at 06:21 on Dec 12, 2019 |
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Dec 12, 2019 06:16
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Rascyc posted:I like that the voidout craters you make never go away either. Forever a reminder of how you've altered the world permanently. Wait, really? Cause mine did
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Dec 12, 2019 07:01
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CJacobs posted:In addition to this, some other foreshadowing I noticed: After defeating Cliff for the final time in Vietnam, he smiles when he comes to his senses and says that Sam is a Bridge (similar to his speech in the final flashback later). At that point the player is still being led to believe that BB is his son/daughter and him saying that is his way of passing the parenthood torch... but that actually was him realizing that BB is not his son, it's Sam. Ending spoilers Didn't Sam also believe those to be his memories until Deadman decided that they weren't his?
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Dec 12, 2019 07:05
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I think it's funny how this game has some familiar plot beats like The antagonist is the president who killed your parent(s) but is also your adoptive parent. Also has anyone tried what the Hide Spoilers menu option actually does? WaltherFeng fucked around with this message at 08:10 on Dec 12, 2019 |
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Dec 12, 2019 07:20
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WaltherFeng posted:Also has anyone tried what the Hide Spoilers menu option actually does? I’m fairly sure having this active is why I never saw a single truck until the postgame.
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Dec 12, 2019 08:30
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Sam, it's Die-Hardman. You may be wondering what "spoilers" are. Well Sam, time was, people were really into linear media. Got all up in arms about it, too. Whole cities were lost to flame wars. Spoilers - they're no good, Sam. So if you see a spoiler out there, you run.
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Dec 12, 2019 08:36
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WaltherFeng posted:Also has anyone tried what the Hide Spoilers menu option actually does? It seems like it just keeps signs for things you haven't seen or unlocked yourself from appearing in your game. Unfortunately I think they forgot about the player sign creation menu so you can still spoil the signs for all the PCC gadgets right from the beginning. Probably also intelligently hides signs warning of BT and MULE zones and stuff until you have actually gone through them. CJacobs fucked around with this message at 08:53 on Dec 12, 2019 |
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Dec 12, 2019 08:50
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WaltherFeng posted:Also has anyone tried what the Hide Spoilers menu option actually does?
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