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Araganzar posted:The evolution of spells in crawl: There was a time when devs were willing to add new stuff. Or to change stuff because it sounded cool, fun and thematic rather than their vision of polished. We got singularity, after all, as well as skald book, and a number of other new spells or clear improvements over old ones (glaciate, dragon’s call). I don’t remember the exact year, but I think 2014-2016 was pretty good in Crawl development, though the devs have always had trouble with PR. redneck nazgul posted:So, let me see if I figured this out: Ice elementalists still have a way to deal with ice beasts. When you run into an icebeast, you summon two of your own. The new spell works more synergistically with the total IE skill set and is probably a buff to the class, not a nerf, unless its damage sucks. Then the problem is that the damage sucks, not that it’s an AoE spell that doesn’t damage your own summons. There are reasons to be critical of these changes, but some of these posts are just pure reaction. I haven’t actually played with the changes, and to be honest, I don’t intend to. I might go back to Crawl at some point, but after hundreds and hundreds of hours of play and without the attraction of being involved in meaningful conversations about its development, it’s not likely to attract me any time soon. So I’ll probably step out of this conversation soon, since I doubt I have much meaningful to add. I certainly can’t make many specific points about any of the spells except the very obvious ones. That said, even though I don’t agree with a lot of the nerfs — I already wrote my opinion about agony and dispel undead a few weeks ago — I am happy to see this kind of big change in Crawl. The devs haven’t been willing to make bold changes for a number of versions while the game clearly has a lot of places that can be improved. A rough first iteration of a big change isn’t a reason to write the whole thing off. Just from peoples reactions in this thread, I think a few points should be considered. -Early levels for casters need to be looked at. For VM, for example, if sting is now level 3, do they even have a level one spell? Per Araganzar’s feedback, FE probably needs to get a look too. Some caster starts could afford to be hybridized, by giving them their choice of a weapon and 1 level in it, if only as a way to indicate to players that they can’t only rely on their spell book to kill things. -The game needs simple, obvious workhorse spells. Completely removing them will make casting too frustrating. There were too many before, not every school needs one and they shouldn’t also be the best spells for every situation, but there should be at least one way to play the game where you just point your fingers at monsters and blast them, from the beginning to the end. These changes are too aggressive in removing these spells, and more care should be placed on deciding where simple, easy to use blasting spells should go. -The language used to describe the changes seem too thematically influenced, without enough consideration to gameplay, or they seem to be overly arbitrary decisions. Why should necromancy just be about melee? What does it mean for ice to be “diffuse and subtle” — that it prioritizes AoE and utility? If so, that should the design goal, with “diffuse and subtle” as a secondary thematic consideration. I doubt any devs read this thread anymore, but if they do, as a long time player, I’m happy to see changes like this that seem to be steps in the direction of vitality and creativity. I just hope that this also comes with a somewhat looser view on ownership of Crawl’s design philosophy and a little more willingness to engage with criticism.
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Dec 14, 2019 08:32
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If I've got one moonshot idea for late-game Poison use, it's this: Let it synergize with Jiyva worship and allow such worship to do unimaginably goofy things to what was once merely your stings and clouds.
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Dec 14, 2019 11:57
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lategame poison should be acid and the arguments against it are one of the dumbest things the Devs ever uttered
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Dec 14, 2019 13:47
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I'm more offended by how they've chosen to communicate these ideas than the ideas themselves. It seems obvious to me that most of these changes are to disincentivize straight-forward blaster casters and to create a more nuanced, difficult casting game instead of having five (arguably six) flavors of mageblaster running around. That's fine and dandy even if it's not my personal cup of tea, but it also has nothing to do with making necromancy 'directed and single target' by...making it have one of only two or three remaining beam spells in the game.  Nor did differentiating the magic schools (a good and noble goal) require stripping out much of their early-game usability.Either they don't know what they actually want, or they could use someone on outreach who's better at communicating it doing a proofread pass. That's all. Also Tollymain posted:- i really need to play w vile clutch so i can have a stronger understanding of its power in general Vile Clutch is crazy busted and I love it. You know constrict, that difficult-to-resist damage that's so good that just being able to use it on one smaller target at a time can almost make Nagas viable instead of a comedy option (albeit one I enjoy)? What if you could just smite-target a 3x3 explosion of that with any character who can pick up a middling amount of Necromancy? Necromancy, which is itself already one of the better magic schools to splash into literally any other build thanks to regen and the ability to generate easy chaffe. Borgnjor is a loving genius and BVC is the crown jewel of their work. BVC is so incredibly good that it's probably the only pre-Lair damage spell I will keep using well into Zig-Monster runs. It's insanely good, and I'm shocked Trunk hasn't removed it already, because it's as close to 'no brainer' as a magic choice gets. Also also give poison magic acid you cowards
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Dec 14, 2019 15:06
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PlasticAutomaton posted:They really just want you to play melee characters at this point, huh. they don't want you to play their game at all, op
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Dec 14, 2019 15:18
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Jazerus posted:they don't want you to play their game at all, op I'm still not letting it die that I think Theoretically Optimal Man is a better term for it.
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Dec 14, 2019 18:10
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The astute will note that vine stalkers of Gozag remain completely untouched and are fully capable of sleepwalking through everything up until Tomb.
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Dec 14, 2019 18:27
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Anybody got a current pre-compiled offline build for Gooncrawl? I always manage to gently caress it up somehow, and Berotato's got forks removed for the 0.24 tournament. (Also I need to wait until the Kelbi webmaster clears my save, since it's been 5evr since I played)
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Dec 14, 2019 18:54
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Heithinn Grasida posted:Per Araganzar’s feedback, FE probably needs to get a look too. Some caster starts could afford Nah, I gave it another shot and it turns out FE is still pretty good! pre:1799539 araganzar the Conqueror (level 27, 273/273 HPs)
Began as a Minotaur Fire Elementalist on Dec 14, 2019.
Was the Champion of Okawaru. Escaped with the Orb ... and 3 runes!
Health: 273/273 AC: 63 Str: 30 XL: 27
Magic: 31/31 EV: 24 Int: 16 God: Okawaru [******]
Gold: 5282 SH: 8 Dex: 20 (21) Spells: 24/44 levels left
rFire + + + SeeInvis + a - +9 executioner's axe (freeze)
rCold x . . Gourm . (shield currently unavailable)
rNeg + . . Faith . Y - +10 crystal plate armour
rPois . Spirit . E - +2 hat {MR+}
rElec + Reflect + J - +2 cloak of the Thief {+Fog Slay-2 SInv Stlth+}
rCorr . Harm . B - +3 pair of gauntlets of War {Slay+5}
MR +++.. Rnd*Rage + v - +2 pair of boots of the Lair of Beasts {rF+ Int+4}
Stlth .......... X - brooch of Shielding {Reflect SH+8}
HPRegen 0.55/turn g - ring of Robustness {AC+8}
MPRegen 0.22/turn r - ring "Veel" {Fire +Fly rElec rN+ Dex+4}
 edit: I know it's a second edit but.....  I got a potion of magic! Araganzar fucked around with this message at 00:38 on Dec 15, 2019 |
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Dec 14, 2019 19:42
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Araganzar posted:Also really not having any issues with direct damage with Conjurer, I don' t know what people are complaining about.... 
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Dec 14, 2019 23:08
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Jazerus posted:they don't want you to play their game at all, op
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Dec 14, 2019 23:14
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Positional magic is cool imo. also I won my first game with a MiBe, hell yeah.
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Dec 15, 2019 00:35
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Haifisch posted:They want you to play it, but you must do the One Exact Playstyle they envision as Correct. Anything else means you just don't Get crawl. I don't really read the dev forums so excuse my ignorance, but what is the "One Exact Playstyle" they envision?
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Dec 15, 2019 00:44
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Amethyst posted:also I won my first game with a MiBe, hell yeah.
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Dec 15, 2019 01:06
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tylertfb posted:I don't really read the dev forums so excuse my ignorance, but what is the "One Exact Playstyle" they envision? Alright, so, disclaimer, I am bad at Crawl and try not to engage with the dev drama angle at all, so what I say here may have some factual inaccuracies; it is based on my own reading of the situation, and may be subject to some dumb oversight on my part. As to the 'One Exact Playstyle': It's an exaggeration, though it feels a little more true with each major trunk revision; the main devs see Crawl as a competitive speedgame, more or less, and the design philosophy is mostly devoted towards serving that niche. 'Inoptimal' playstyles and choices are routinely trimmed and choices are streamlined (albeit seemingly at random); this has had many good effects, such as the spell library system instead of hauling around books, and the simplification of the food system, but also many annoying, unfun, or occasionally baffling effects as well, such as largely removing mutations as a consideration (since it wasn't strictly optimal), being very gunshy to try out new content that doesn't immediately fit into the current competitive meta with regards to spells, classes, and races, and the system whereby traps periodically just happen to a player when new tiles are revealed (which I still say seems like a weird violation of DCSS' otherwise excellent devotion to transparency; newer players will tend to have a much worse time with traps because they won't know about this needlessly obscured system which is much more dangerous if you're not already following optimal exploration tactics). The reasoning for the trap change in particular was given as the need to introduce more variance and challenges and, in effect, to simply lower the overall winrates since some players were getting maddeningly consistent at beating the game every single run. To summarize, the 'One Exact Playstyle' seems to mean cutting or marginalizing content that doesn't already fit into the theoretically optimal builds, because removing 'no-brainer' choices constantly means eventually slicing away edge case builds. Weird playstyles such as evokers are marginalized and disappear, inoptimal 'just for goofs' choices like eating mutagenic choices are stripped out. The magic system change seems to show some signs of this inclination as well; while it has some very good ideas in theory, it seems heavily geared towards removing blaster-mage as an early-game archetype, possibly because it was already a bit swingy to rely on magic for the first couple of floors in comparison to a solid melee build. The most consistent builds are generally melee-with-buffs, and most of the major changes over time have been at worst neutral to this archetype. The new trap system in particular can mean that a mage might find themselves completely helpless and torn to shreds while immobilized, while a heavy armor fighter might live long enough to react since AC is more consistent than EV and isn't affected by most immobilization the way EV is. Part of what makes this process confusing and a generator of so many complaints is the seemingly random way the changes lurch towards the inevitable conclusion of 'here is our intricate, brutal swiss watch', which does seem to be the intent of most of the changes, while trying to work backwards from 'here is our big goofy accessible roguelike literally named after the gastronomic equivalent of throwing stuff at the wall to see what sticks'. They're not at the point of having their nice, streamlined game yet, but they also create the appearance of refusing to acknowledge that this is the direction they're aiming for. For example, with no lategame options and even a few nerfs, Poison magic looks increasingly like a trap option, since any experience devoted to it is xp NOT used on building towards your final skillset, and threatens to leave you struggling in the mid and lategame. This has been the case for a very long time, but somehow they haven't just worked up the muster to simply cut the cord and remove poison as an option. I would honestly respect this process more if they'd just rip the tape off and remove some of the more obvious remaining cruft rather than pretending legacy content they've repeatedly neglected is still relevant and refusing to even engage with criticism of this approach. It doesn't fit their stated design philosophy, and what they do or don't change doesn't even always fit the reasoning they provide. I don't think the devs are 'ruining Crawl forever' or anything, since forks exist, but given the niche they seem to be trying to fit the game into I feel they could be doing a lot better about communicating and actually committing to their new apparent direction.
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Dec 15, 2019 01:39
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The real bullshit is removing any and all criticism until people get frustrated and just leave, so they can congratulate themselves on how satisfied their commenting playerbase is.
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Dec 15, 2019 01:41
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The whole thing with the devs reminds me of modding community drama. Poison magic falling off after midgame would likely work better if it was more OP in the early game. It took me over 200 DEVM games before I won one and I know I would usually branch into fire partway into the early game because ignite poison was so good and I would hope to get it from Veh or books.
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Dec 15, 2019 05:35
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Akett posted:The whole thing with the devs reminds me of modding community drama. Yeah, I agree with the dev arguments about not adding high level damage spells to poison — that there are already too many damage spells and it would be too hard to make meaningfully distinct, effective new damage spells that play differently enough from other schools — but the argument that poison is okay as it is because it’s strong early on is just silly. Venom mage is not bad if you play it right, but it’s not in the top three book starts. Has anyone actually used the new poison spell? From the description it looks like it could be pretty good, something like freezing cloud but only two schools and it also debuffs. What about sting, now? I think the roots for good changes to poison magic are really there, but I don’t know how it plays out.
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Dec 15, 2019 06:13
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If I had to come up with capstone venom spells I'd likely go with level 5 or 6 spells that are solid in the midgame but scale effectively against endgame enemies due to utility. Maybe an acid spell that you need to cast repeatedly but does more damage with each cast per target, perhaps doing corrosion similar to how it works on the player, could put a cap at the third application to keep it from going too out of hand. Every so often someone suggests anti-magic venom that works on demons and I kind of think that would be a great utility, it could likely manage by doing less damage than the brand or mana vipers but work more consistently at keeping enemies unable to cast. But yeah, the real problem with spells is about the same problem with weapons, it's hard to get a meaningful difference in feel for them.
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Dec 16, 2019 05:23
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They've said they don't want to add acid damage to Poison Magic and don't really want to add more ways to deal acid damage. Pick your reason: A: They hate fun. B: They don't want Poison Magic to be anything more than a trap beyond Lair. C: There hasn't been a consistent source of acid damage so almost nothing resists it, making it a circular argument. D: Corrode taking a flat 8 AC off of things seems overpowered when you consider that orbs of fire have 20 AC and Cerebov has 30.
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Dec 16, 2019 05:39
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Why not have player corrode take off like 1-4 (or 1-6 if it's a higher level spell) AC based on spellpower, and start off with rCorrode just on things that deal corrosion themselves and some related monsters like slimes? My first ever win was SpVM and I would love for poison magic to have something, anything better or more interesting than venom arrow.
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Dec 16, 2019 06:19
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The issue with Poison not having late-game viability is that no one serious is going to use a "trap" choice. Whether or not people here care about competitive play, it's the main driver for change within the game. If a spell school isn't considered a viable choice, it's unlikely to get much love or see many new features. Crawl scoring is effectively 1.4 trillion / turn count. This puts you on a strict XP budget. Mages are already at a disadvantage because of resting. Casual games have no issues spending the xp to pick up meph cloud or olgreb's, but of the top 6 VMs by background only one trained Poison and they stopped on D3. The second problem is without a need to max spellpower or cast high level spells you don't need to put anything into the school. This includes a DEVM who used Poison Arrow without any training in Poison: pre:16668 | Vaults:4 | timbw: poison arrow 16668 | Vaults:4 | bart: poison arrow op! 16668 | Vaults:4 | timbw: its insane how much dmg it does 16668 | Vaults:4 | timbw: even on low power 16671 | Vaults:4 | Noticed Margery 16674 | Vaults:4 | Killed Margery 16679 | Vaults:4 | cosmonautxxx: two shots I would say Poison belongs with Necromancy - a school where as you progress more and more creatures resist. But Necromancy is designed to deal with undead, has pets to do non-negative damage, and extremely attractive high level spells. I'm curious what strict rule applies to Necromancy which is all over the place with buffs, debuffs, utility, defense, being literally unable to die, making creatures explode into death scarabs. Seems to me there are some pretty good acid spells already in the game that just need to be codified. I'd be willing to add a few or take suggestions: acid splash - from jellies, zero range 2d4 attack, chance to splash spit acid - from oklob, ranged attack, 3d7 acid damage cause an acid splash corrosive bolt - from acidic bolt, loses 1 range for each creature hit acid cloud - from wand of clouds, point blank cone AOE - same damage as freezing cloud all of these have a chance to corrode equipment, (1/3 without rCorr, 1/6 with) A few others that would take more work: slimify weapon - could be a good high level spell, maybe stepping on jiyvas toes (pseudopods)? summon jelly (like canine familiar, different summons) - could be a source of non-poison damage bolt of inaccuracy - the goggles do nothing! sulphuric bore - creates a shaft (shafts?) (snake?) vitriloic bath - showers target in painful/itchy light acid, 50% chance spellcasts are silenced, small antimagic effect lysergic infusion - chance of confusion, or sleep can't really think of any buffs atm that are not completely derivative of Jiyva
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Dec 16, 2019 18:29
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quote:Crawl scoring is effectively 1.4 trillion / turn count. This puts you on a strict XP budget. Mages are already at a disadvantage because of resting.
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Dec 16, 2019 19:31
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Araganzar posted:can't really think of any buffs atm that are not completely derivative of Jiyva I'm not familiar with jiyva, but acidic shroud: increases DR and causes creatures that hit you to be corroded also what about a plague spell? confuse a monster, and then other monsters it hits are also confused?
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Dec 16, 2019 19:38
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I haven't played Crawl in a good long while and the recent state of the thread has been helpful in catching me up. Have they demonstrably been actively deleting posts or is that hyperbole/suspicion? That usually tells me all I care to know about a community.
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Dec 16, 2019 20:44
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Cardiovorax posted:After all, we still live in the 80s and highscores are the only thing anyone plays games for. This is why I name all of my characters "rear end".
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Dec 16, 2019 20:56
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Hammer Bro. posted:I haven't played Crawl in a good long while and the recent state of the thread has been helpful in catching me up. Play Gooncrawl.
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Dec 16, 2019 21:43
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PMush Perfect posted:Grats! If you're playing Gooncrawl, try out a Faerie Dragon Conjurer next, they're a great introduction to playing casters. Gargoyle Earth Elementalist is also an excellent choice, as you gain quite a good amount of natural AC and you get access to the high power of Earth magic. It's pretty easy to slot in another school if you start coming up against highly armored foes; if you find a book with Firestorm or Glaciate, you'll be able to use them by the time you hit level 27. It's such a strong combination that it's the one that has carried me through a full 15-rune run and a few ziggurats!
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Dec 17, 2019 00:15
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hey wonder what's on this next level oh howdy guys it's the staircase waiting club let's bee friends?
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Dec 17, 2019 02:44
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Araganzar posted:hey wonder what's on this next level oh howdy guys it's the staircase waiting club
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Dec 17, 2019 03:05
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Don't post this in the tavern or they'll remove blade hands
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Dec 17, 2019 03:55
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It explains so much that the developers think turn count and score are the end-all be-all of balance.
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Dec 17, 2019 04:15
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So I've got Windows building again, after getting an entirely new computer that is much faster. The initial build took 10 minutes instead of 50 minutes; turns out upgrading to a quadcore instead of an old AMD business class processor pays off! Some people are asking for a Windows offline build to download, but the way mine is set up currently isn't very good for that. It's smack in the middle of /crawl/crawl-ref/source, and all the various make/o/cc/c/h etc files are in there too, which disagrees drastically with the last packed build I got. Is there a way to do a release build I'm unaware of? Currently I just go 'make TILES=y' in my /source folder. In addition, if I'm able to build the cleaned up release, where should I put it? I don't have any dropbox or mega56 accounts or anything like that. EDIT-I also got a 4k monitor and surprisingly crawl works really well in it!
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Dec 17, 2019 06:02
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redneck nazgul posted:It explains so much that the developers think turn count and score are the end-all be-all of balance.
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Dec 17, 2019 07:49
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redneck nazgul posted:It explains so much that the developers think turn count and score are the end-all be-all of balance. Haifisch posted:They're in an echo chamber of high level trunk players, so what people who aren't Good At Crawl(or who are good at crawl but don't want crawl tailored specifically to their playstyle) want doesn't matter to them. This also explains why stuff that's just in because it's charming and funny tends to get cut out over time(like being able to mash the Pray button for xom messages). I've been trying to 15 rune in under 50k turns, just to understand the mindset. It sure isn't fun having so few consumables. Splatted a ton of FDTm, just not familiar enough with the species. Switched to Vs and just cleared Vaults 5 in under 21k turns. Couldn't find rCorr even clearing Orc so I have to backtrack to Slime now. People What Have Done New Tomb, is the hype real? Can this guy take it on the way out of V or back from Slime? I mean I got some really nice stuff in V and he's Hoss as hell but he's only XL23: pre:araganzar the Brawler (Vine Stalker Transmuter) Turns: 21012, Time: 02:59:54
Health: 158/158 AC: 32 Str: 41 XL: 23 Next: 68%
Magic: 32/32 EV: 28 Int: 35 God: Cheibriados [******]
Gold: 2316 SH: 22 Dex: 34 Spells: 1/34 levels left
rFire + + + SeeInvis + - Unarmed
rCold + + + Gourm . X - +4 shield of Listlessness {rF+ rC+ MR+ Regen+}
rNeg + + + Faith . (armour currently unavailable)
rPois ∞ Spirit + V - +1 hat "Aluonliq" {rPois rF+ Regen+ Dex+3}
rElec + Reflect . T - scarf {rC+ rF+}
rCorr . Harm . (gloves currently unavailable)
MR +++++ (boots currently unavailable)
Stlth ++++++.... t - amulet of regeneration {+regen, !d}
HPRegen 3.36/turn E - ring "Anumpo" {rN+ MR++ Str+6 Dex+2}
MPRegen 0.23/turn w - ring of Sohett {rC+ rN+ Int+3}Also I have borgnor's vile clutch at 1%, is it worth casting with 41 str and statue form? My other problem is I like the spellset of All The Spells and I'm not sure what gets me through extended best.
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Dec 17, 2019 08:36
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Scaramouche posted:So I've got Windows building again, after getting an entirely new computer that is much faster. The initial build took 10 minutes instead of 50 minutes; turns out upgrading to a quadcore instead of an old AMD business class processor pays off! https://github.com/Floodkiller/crawl/blob/gooncrawl/crawl-ref/docs/develop/release/guide.txt Only step 8 is needed, be warned that packaging a release build takes a lot longer than normal since it compiling all the support libraries needed into it that you normally don't need with a normal build (so that people without them can run it). I know I straight up can't compile installer versions (zip files are fine), don't know if you will have more luck. I usually dump files to share in a Google Drive because I'm lazy and I don't think you need to worry about high traffic from SA. If you can't find something, I can put in the time to officially tag, build and release before I go home for the holidays (since I'm still lazily working at menu stuff that really shouldn't be taking this long).
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Dec 17, 2019 20:46
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Akett posted:If I had to come up with capstone venom spells I'd likely go with level 5 or 6 spells that are solid in the midgame but scale effectively against endgame enemies due to utility. Maybe an acid spell that you need to cast repeatedly but does more damage with each cast per target, perhaps doing corrosion similar to how it works on the player, could put a cap at the third application to keep it from going too out of hand. Every so often someone suggests anti-magic venom that works on demons and I kind of think that would be a great utility, it could likely manage by doing less damage than the brand or mana vipers but work more consistently at keeping enemies unable to cast. Make Vile Clutch into Toxic Glue. Raise it a level.
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Dec 18, 2019 08:53
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Araganzar posted:People What Have Done New Tomb, is the hype real? Can this guy take it on the way out of V or back from Slime? I mean I got some really nice stuff in V and he's Hoss as hell but he's only XL23: Yes, Borgnor's it up to get into melee range unless it's something incorporeal. You should be fine in Tomb between those resists and Statue Form helping you not die to Torment, but use Slouch liberally. I'd also start pumping UC if your spells are good: You have a lot of damage but you're crippling your attack speed and you don't want to spend any more time in Tomb than you have to.
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Dec 18, 2019 09:29
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redneck nazgul posted:Yes, Borgnor's it up to get into melee range unless it's something incorporeal. How does Borgnor's help you get into melee range? Because of enemies struggling? Decided to skip tomb until I had better UC and either cBlink or more blink scrolls. Was in a mob in Depths and didn't notice a boggart bring out a floating eye and an eye of draining. Turns out smite-targeted para + MP drain is something you should worry about on a vine stalker. Grim reminder that any time you aren't taking the game a turn at a time you can die. Probably why the best players are on console, reading letters you can pick up threats more easily playing at speed. I think i was a good strategy, snakes and spider make rushing D4 easy. But man am I dumb and I'm not sure I can do this.   
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Dec 18, 2019 14:59
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| # ? Apr 25, 2024 17:14 |
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Floodkiller posted:https://github.com/Floodkiller/crawl/blob/gooncrawl/crawl-ref/docs/develop/release/guide.txt If it's at all possible the Zip file version would be great since that's all I've even downloaded, never used the installer version.
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Dec 18, 2019 18:04
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