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SerCypher
May 10, 2006

Gay baby jail...? What the hell?

I really don't like the sound of that...
Fun Shoe

ulmont posted:

Don't each of [Rand, Mat, Perrin] each think [the other two] have great mysterious skill with the ladies to the point of running joke?

I went back and reread the Perrin viewpoint chapter and you're right.

I think it's just because we get more randcam that I didn't notice.

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Ungratek
Aug 2, 2005


All of the wonderkids POV make much more sense this time through. I was their age/a bit younger when I read through originally, and empathized. I’m in my 30s now and can laugh about how realistic and stupid they are.

The Glumslinger
Sep 24, 2008

Coach Nagy, you want me to throw to WHAT side of the field?


Hair Elf
It's kinda fun to imagine Moraine's trip to Aemon's Field going into this podunk backwater, so forgotten that Andor hasn't even bothered sending tax collectors there in like 100 years. And not only is she there to find a legend out of myth, she finds 2 more taveren. And then she happens to find 2 girls who would both be among the most powerful channelers since the breaking.

Oh, and she also runs into the exiled court bard of Andor too, since things weren't hosed up enough already.

rndmnmbr
Jul 3, 2012

And an Aes Sedai and her warder, one of those hadn't been to the Two Rivers in even longer than the tax man. Not to speak of a borderlands-quality Trolloc raid.

Almost like there were ta'veren in play, making a bunch of improbable coincidences happen all at once.

rndmnmbr fucked around with this message at 06:48 on Dec 16, 2019

Tahirovic
Feb 25, 2009
Fun Shoe
Wasn't the channeler thing explained by the ancient blood lines?
But some how the Tower wasn't smart enough to scourge those places.

The Glumslinger
Sep 24, 2008

Coach Nagy, you want me to throw to WHAT side of the field?


Hair Elf

Tahirovic posted:

Wasn't the channeler thing explained by the ancient blood lines?
But some how the Tower wasn't smart enough to scourge those places.

They did in a later book and took like 20 girls to get trained

Gnoman
Feb 12, 2014

Come, all you fair and tender maids
Who flourish in your pri-ime
Beware, take care, keep your garden fair
Let Gnoman steal your thy-y-me
Le-et Gnoman steal your thyme




Not really. There's a lot of reference to the "old blood", and fears from some of the Aes Sedai that they're culling the Power from humanity, but there's no solid argument (let alone decisive proof) that the two are connected, and some that discredits the notion.


Most importantly, every group of channelers outside of the AS is quite numerous compared to the Tower, and the average strength is higher, even among the Kin - a group comprised primarily of women who were kicked out of (or fled from) the Tower.


Based on the text, the reasons for both of these appear to be quite simple. Other groups swell while the AS dwindle because the AS doesn't actively hunt for recruits - they train girls who seek them out, and will grab girls who don't have the option not to channel whenever they stumble across one, but that's the limit of it. Every other organized group is much less selective. The Seanchan even point out among themselves that they're finding a huge number of new damane, which says a lot about how many the AS miss even in cities, let alone remote villages.

As for strength, every other group makes much heavier use of the Power than the AS (who are trained from the beginning to see saidar as incredibly dangerous and have "do not use this frivolously or unnecessarily" literally beaten into them starting as soon as their training does). Egwene notes that she gains strength very quickly while being trained by the Seanchan, probably because she's being pushed so hard compared to what an ordinary novice would be doing.

Patrat
Feb 14, 2012

Gnoman posted:

Most importantly, every group of channelers outside of the AS is quite numerous compared to the Tower, and the average strength is higher, even among the Kin - a group comprised primarily of women who were kicked out of (or fled from) the Tower.

Actually I do not think the latter part is true? The average strength of Aes Sedai is actually high due to them kicking out everyone below a certain threshold. There are a handful of very strong Kin, concentrated in their age based leadership likely due to powerful channelers living longer, but it is specifically called out later that it takes twice as many Kin as Aes Sedai to open a decent sized gateway for Travelling.

The handful of strong Kin are I guess people who failed one of the weird arbitrary tests but would otherwise have been strong enough to be eagerly snapped up.

Also with training, Aiel Wild Ones in particular specifically limit channeling as much as possible and there are multiple comments about their weaving being 'rough', or them barely knowing any healing or how to form circles at least to start with. I can absolutely believe that at series start Aes Sedai probably are 'on average' the best trained and strongest channeling organisation around on an individual basis, albeit beaten for ability in certain areas like Damane for combat weaves or the sea folk for weather control. Obviously also hugely outnumbered by a lot of groups.

Patrat fucked around with this message at 09:50 on Dec 16, 2019

Old Kentucky Shark
May 25, 2012

If you think you're gonna get sympathy from the shark, well then, you won't.


Patrat posted:

Actually I do not think the latter part is true? The average strength of Aes Sedai is actually high due to them kicking out everyone below a certain threshold. There are a handful of very strong Kin, concentrated in their age based leadership likely due to powerful channelers living longer, but it is specifically called out later that it takes twice as many Kin as Aes Sedai to open a decent sized gateway for Travelling.

The handful of strong Kin are I guess people who failed one of the weird arbitrary tests but would otherwise have been strong enough to be eagerly snapped up.

Also with training, Aiel Wild Ones in particular specifically limit channeling as much as possible and there are multiple comments about their weaving being 'rough', or them barely knowing any healing or how to form circles at least to start with. I can absolutely believe that at series start Aes Sedai probably are 'on average' the best trained and strongest channeling organisation around on an individual basis, albeit beaten for ability in certain areas like Damane for combat weaves or the sea folk for weather control. Obviously also hugely outnumbered by a lot of groups.

Right. The Aes Sedai were shocked by the strength of many of the Kin not because the Kin were stronger than Aes Sedai, but because many of the Kin who had been kicked out for being too weak in the power to train eventually turned out to be strong enough, after many, many decades of practice, to be as strong as the lowest tier of Aes Sedai.

The Aes Sedai believed that the ability to channel was going out of humanity because A) they set their standards so high in terms of both strength in the power and in youth that they were only pulling in girls whose channeling ability was so latent that they would have channeled anyway without Aes Sedai help and B) the Aes Sedai, due to lack of interest in the outside world, were only patrolling the more "civilized" regions of Randland looking for girls. If they had relaxed their standards and wandered into the rural areas, the Tower would have been several times larger than it was, but the average power level of Aes Sedai probably would have dropped a bit, although not by that much. They weren't culling the ability to Channel out of humanity, but they were culling the ability to find channelers out of the Aes Sedai.

Libluini
May 18, 2012

I gravitated towards the Greens, eventually even joining the party itself.

The Linke is a party I grudgingly accept exists, but I've learned enough about DDR-history I can't bring myself to trust a party that was once the SED, a party leading the corrupt state apparatus ...
Grimey Drawer
It probably also would have helped if the Black Ajah wasn't like a full 1/3rd of the Tower. They've been sabotaging Aes Sedai efforts pretty heavily, one has to assume.

Invalid Validation
Jan 13, 2008




Well technically they were actively culling the ability to channel from men.

VAGENDA OF MANOCIDE
Aug 1, 2004

whoa, what just happened here?







College Slice

Invalid Validation posted:

Well technically they were actively culling the ability to channel from men.

Maybe just the equivalent of wilders. Rand and Taim certainly didn't have much in the way of issues detecting latent males.

Old Kentucky Shark
May 25, 2012

If you think you're gonna get sympathy from the shark, well then, you won't.


Given that the Red Ajah has the highest proportion of Black Ajah it may have been less of a culling and more of a redistribution to Shayol Ghil.

Ungratek
Aug 2, 2005


I still think the most unreasonable plot point was Rand just abandoning all responsibility to Taim for the Black Tower. He was so involved in all the ruling politics and non-magic military that he would just ignore his channelers.

bloom
Feb 25, 2017

by sebmojo
That never quite sat right with me. Especially considering that LT was paranoid as hell about them.

ChubbyChecker
Mar 25, 2018

It might have been that way because RJ retconned him not being Demandred.

Old Kentucky Shark
May 25, 2012

If you think you're gonna get sympathy from the shark, well then, you won't.


Lews Theron screamed at him in his head literally the entire time he was around a male channeler or male channeling. Even if he’d wanted to be involved the physical fact of his madness made it functionally impossible.

silvergoose
Mar 18, 2006

IT IS SAID THE TEARS OF THE BWEENIX CAN HEAL ALL WOUNDS




And also he didn't trust any leaders in any kingdoms to do anything right, and he had like three of them to handle, so when would he have had any time?

I mean yeah it was a bad choice, but he made a whole lot of those.

Mat Cauthon
Jan 2, 2006

The more tragic things get,
the more I feel like laughing.



It was the most pragmatic choice that just ended up having really bad consequences. As Rand became more unstable it became more dangerous for him to even be around another male channeler. Had he gone to the school and had some kind of freak out he might've killed all of them.

Having Logain around to try and mitigate was basically ta'avern giving him some breathing room but yeah there were never really any good options there short of him executing Taim right after Dumai's Wells.

Hieronymous Alloy
Jan 30, 2009


Why! Why!! Why must you refuse to accept that Dr. Hieronymous Alloy's Genetically Enhanced Cream Corn Is Superior to the Leading Brand on the Market!?!




Morbid Hound
Yeah I almost think that whole sequence is just there to show how leadership failures happen. You ignore a problem for reasons and it gets worse.

Also yeah Taim was demandred and it got preemptively retconned.

silvergoose
Mar 18, 2006

IT IS SAID THE TEARS OF THE BWEENIX CAN HEAL ALL WOUNDS




Did he ever say that or is it just all y'all guessing?

DarkHorse
Dec 13, 2006

Vroom Vroom, BEEP BEEP!
Nap Ghost

silvergoose posted:

Did he ever say that or is it just all y'all guessing?

I believe some original drafts showed Taim being Demandred, and there might be a comment someone heard about RJ being salty that it was guessed so soon

How are u
May 19, 2005

by Azathoth
The biggest hole in "Taim is Demandred" for me is the fact that Taim was at one point captured by Aes Sedai. I just can't see any of the Forsaken being ballsy enough to allow that to happen.

Mat Cauthon
Jan 2, 2006

The more tragic things get,
the more I feel like laughing.



IIRC when all the Taimandred theorycrafting was hot and heavy the assumption was that Demandred is the one who kills the Aes Sedai holding Taim as well as Taim and then assumes his identity.

How are u
May 19, 2005

by Azathoth
Well, that would make plenty of sense!

awesmoe
Nov 30, 2005

Pillbug
Also a forsaken getting captured by the ajah thats like 75% darkfriends would be like...not a problem. it wouldnt be a problem.

Vavrek
Mar 2, 2013

I like your style hombre, but this is no laughing matter. Assault on a police officer. Theft of police property. Illegal possession of a firearm. FIVE counts of attempted murder. That comes to... 29 dollars and 40 cents. Cash, cheque, or credit card?

silvergoose posted:

I mean yeah it was a bad choice, but he made a whole lot of those.

Mat Cauthon posted:

It was the most pragmatic choice that just ended up having really bad consequences.
Putting Taim in charge of the Black Tower was always a decision I liked. It's risky, but it's also an intelligent and practical action. If Taim had simply been a man who sincerely believed he was the Dragon Reborn, who was readying for the Last Battle, and who wasn't evil ... in short, I think, if Taim had been Logain, then Rand likely would've ended up with a loyal lieutenant dedicated to providing Rand with the army he wanted while crafting a healthy (at least, healthier) institutional culture.

Instead, well.

DarkHorse posted:

I believe some original drafts showed Taim being Demandred, and there might be a comment someone heard about RJ being salty that it was guessed so soon
Something I like, because I didn't anticipate it: They say, over and over, that the Shadow will be raising new servants, even to the highest levels. It's usually just a piece of meat dangled in front of hungry darkfriends. And then Taim shows up to a meeting with the Forsaken and I'm all :aaaaa:.

Comrade Blyatlov
Aug 4, 2007


should have picked four fingers





Mat Cauthon posted:

It was the most pragmatic choice that just ended up having really bad consequences. As Rand became more unstable it became more dangerous for him to even be around another male channeler. Had he gone to the school and had some kind of freak out he might've killed all of them.

Having Logain around to try and mitigate was basically ta'avern giving him some breathing room but yeah there were never really any good options there short of him executing Taim right after Dumai's Wells.

Yeah, he just picked the wrong guy. The Black Tower idea itself was sound.

ninjoatse.cx
Apr 9, 2005

Fun Shoe
The madness idea was also pretty vague to know if the black tower was a good idea. It's kinda all over the place in the series to know how or when it will hit, and how dangerous it would be.

It's kind of hard to imagine them being strong enough to "break the world", even though they were all learning to channel at the same time.

Nihilarian
Oct 2, 2013


I have never seen any actual evidence that Jordan actually intended Taim as Demandred, just nerds crying "retcon!"

Invalid Validation
Jan 13, 2008




The Dark One wasn’t very good at picking Forsaken with all the chances they had to actually kill Rand. I mean pretty much any of them could have just strolled up to him and BAM.

silvergoose
Mar 18, 2006

IT IS SAID THE TEARS OF THE BWEENIX CAN HEAL ALL WOUNDS




Invalid Validation posted:

The Dark One wasn’t very good at picking Forsaken with all the chances they had to actually kill Rand. I mean pretty much any of them could have just strolled up to him and BAM.

The goal wasn't really to kill him, and the forsaken according to a certain someone were chosen for power and selfishness, not competence, really.

Anias
Jun 3, 2010

It really is a lovely hat

Invalid Validation posted:

The Dark One wasn’t very good at picking Forsaken with all the chances they had to actually kill Rand. I mean pretty much any of them could have just strolled up to him and BAM.

The dark one wins by rand (the patterns representative) breaking the pattern when he goes to the last battle, not by killing rand and waiting for the pattern to spin up another taveren.

The Neal!
Sep 3, 2004

HAY GUYZ! I want to be a director

Nihilarian posted:

I have never seen any actual evidence that Jordan actually intended Taim as Demandred, just nerds crying "retcon!"

I feel like there's a bunch of clues pointing in that direction that put a lot of people in the mindset that Jordan decided to change it because everyone had guessed that twist and he wasn't so far down that road he couldn't pull out.

I also think there was something linked a few pages back on Jordan's original concepts for the book which outright said he was that. Someone else might be able to link it again?

bloom
Feb 25, 2017

by sebmojo
The main Taimandred thing for me was always the "so called aiel" line.

Ani
Jun 15, 2001
illum non populi fasces, non purpura regum / flexit et infidos agitans discordia fratres

bloom posted:

The main Taimandred thing for me was always the "so called aiel" line.
That and the way Demandred's POVs book-end LOC.

Rohan Kishibe
Oct 29, 2011

Frankly, I don't like you
and I never have.
I think by book 7 though it's pretty clear he's abandoned that idea. Even in Lord of chaos, I think there's a Sammael chapter that says that Demandred prefers to work through proxies so I don't think it's open and shut that he changed his mind between book 6 and 7. I think he maybe abandoned it while finishing up book 6 and missed clearing up a few lines on the last pass.

Patrat
Feb 14, 2012

The thing that always bemused me about the Black Tower was the way that Rand did just sort of... Forget that he had them a lot of the time even when they would have been immensely useful.

It would have been a lot harder for them to go rogue if he had them (for example) on rotation outside of the Tower providing a hub and spoke network of Travelling gateways between his various minions and dominions. There are multiple disasters that happen because nobody talks to each other for weeks or months at a time even when there is literally nothing stopping them popping back to check in and say hi for dinner a few times a week after a certain point.

You have stuff like Perin and Matt going off for huge periods of time then acting as if they are completely alone even when instant travel is a thing - Perin even has Travel capable channelers with him and the whole 'being exiled' story is irrelevant after not very long. It is even more glaring when on a few occasions Rand does use Travelling for military mobility and logistics and it works amazingly well. (as it should).

minema
May 31, 2011
https://www.theoryland.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=8767

This is the thread where someone has said they went through the archives and found proof that Taim was intended to be Demandred at least at the time of publication of LoC, AND that he was the one who killed Asmodean originally.

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TURTLE SLUT
Dec 12, 2005

In the show, they should just come up with a Star Trek technobabble equivalent for why Traveling to Perrin or w/e can't happen right now.

My Lord Dragon, the Pattern is too weak around <area> to Travel without all channelers in <large radius> knowing it!!!! Or whatever. Just like there's constant excuses around channeling itself.

edit: oh poo poo, I guess I forgot dreamspikes are a thing. Maybe just introduce those way earlier.

TURTLE SLUT fucked around with this message at 18:51 on Dec 17, 2019

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