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Ronwayne posted:I still think the worse type is shadowrun, where well meaning white nerds try to challenge racism and end up making something that is somehow more racist than the source material. It's the kind of thing that reminds me of one bit from The West Wing. Josh Lyman and a few staffers/DNC people are brainstorm to figure out a counter to an ad critical of fuel economy standards that features a worried family trying to drive up a mountain in an under-powered economy car. Various ideas get thrown around. They want to make an ad with the same family driving a car that's pulling.... a Saudi oil rig. That has Saudi flags. And people dressed like Arab sheiks and Lyman: "Is it just me or does sound like an ad the KKK might put out?" I posted this earlier In terms of (hopefully) unintentional racism/sexism that's pretty out there. I don't recall Gary Gygax being a horrible racist. Maybe a bit sexist. There were a lot of things in those early D&D books that had naked tits which really should not have had tits at all. So this cover shows Lloth, two of her handmaidens, a mind flayer and a couple of fire giant looking out as if at the party approaching them. The scene is meant to be one of anticipation and menace and "Boys, you came to the wrong place. You are hosed." Instead with the chain mail bikini, the impression is more "Boys, you came to the right place. Welcome to our fantasy-themed brothel run by Mistress L. Now how would you guys like to be hosed?" Still, you can kind of follow Gygax's thought process with this. Orcs. Ogres. Now Giants. We've pretty thoroughly tapped the well for evil humanoids that are large. So there needs to be something new. He remembers the idea of the Norse Dark Elves (which were pretty much classic Dwarves, but whatever) and runs with the idea of a scary underground offshoot of evil elves with pitch black skin and stark white hair. They worship... spiders. The classic spider is the black widow. The have a spider goddess because spiders are really creepy. Since they worship a goddess, the priests are female. So the female run everything because spider goddess says so. Cut to a few years later and the collect super-module needs a cover that incorporates giants, underworld monsters drow and Lloth. Figure beautiful but evil was a thing mentioned. Meanwhile, actual pitch-black skin would look really bad in color. And elves are pretty much smaller, thinner humans with pointy ears. Taken all together and you get what you get. And it was 33 years ago.
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Dec 16, 2019 04:59
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Ronwayne posted:I still think the worse type is shadowrun, where well meaning white nerds try to challenge racism and end up making something that is somehow more racist than the source material. What was the source material and the more racist version?
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Dec 16, 2019 05:24
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Eh, the original flavor Drow aren't just 'oh we happened to wander into precisely the nightmare decadence of orientalism by independent invention.' They exist because they fill a pulp stereotype, and that pulp source is wildly orientalist.
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Dec 16, 2019 05:27
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I thought the Norse Dark Elves and Dwarves were different things.Joe Slowboat posted:
MonsterEnvy fucked around with this message at 05:34 on Dec 16, 2019 |
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Dec 16, 2019 05:30
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Kaza42 posted:What was the source material and the more racist version? I'm going to take a guess that they might mean the intelligence penalties Orks and Trolls suffer from in SR. Which, when these are human beings with a mutation based in a real-world-foundation setting, gets a lot more real than fantasy imaginary critters. Though I suppose they might also mean the elvish nations being authoritarian secret fantasy fash. Or maybe the Native American Nations being formed out of a literal magic-based uprising when the US tried to literally put them all in camps and steal their land for strip-mining. Or it could be a half-dozen other less obvious bits, because SR has been around for, like, 30+ years, and it accumulated a lot of cruft in that time.
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Dec 16, 2019 05:48
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MonsterEnvy posted:I thought the Norse Dark Elves and Dwarves were different things. Orientalism includes, and even is especially involved in, the treatment of the Middle East and North Africa, and Drow fit pretty closely with Haggard's https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/She:_A_History_of_Adventure. More generally, they embody the decadent, ancient-but-crumbling, slave-taking Other that European orientalism imagines. They have all the tropes, and frankly, European racism often blended and tied together different racist ideations. Orientalism generally imagined societies that were older and even more 'advanced' than Europe, but which had crumbled due to a lack of vigor and ethical drive. This emerges especially in the supposed sexual deviance of the Other, which Drow fit to a t. Matriarchy also fits into that model of racism. Basically, the Drow aren't Eastern, but they are decadent, dark-skinned, matriarchal, demon-worshiping, sexually deviant, enslaving... all these qualities which were bound up in an image of Asia and North Africa which is the body of racism called orientalism. The pulp empires the Drow draw on were often explicitly Eastern.
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Dec 16, 2019 06:42
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Joe Slowboat posted:Orientalism includes, and even is especially involved in, the treatment of the Middle East and North Africa, and Drow fit pretty closely with Haggard's https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/She:_A_History_of_Adventure. More generally, they embody the decadent, ancient-but-crumbling, slave-taking Other that European orientalism imagines. They have all the tropes, and frankly, European racism often blended and tied together different racist ideations. Orientalism generally imagined societies that were older and even more 'advanced' than Europe, but which had crumbled due to a lack of vigor and ethical drive. This emerges especially in the supposed sexual deviance of the Other, which Drow fit to a t. Matriarchy also fits into that model of racism. Gygax was born in 1938. In 1948 he'd have been 10 years old, so I can easily see him absorbing She and similar stories and then later drawing on them to create the drow.
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Dec 16, 2019 07:23
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EimiYoshikawa posted:I'm going to take a guess that they might mean the intelligence penalties Orks and Trolls suffer from in SR. Which, when these are human beings with a mutation based in a real-world-foundation setting, gets a lot more real than fantasy imaginary critters. Any one of these, but specifically orks going through puberty earlier and giving birth in "litters" And also the bits where First Peoples are actually magical woodland creatures. The elves getting a country of their own and going fash as hell is completely believable. my SR elf PC has repeatedly mentioned that an elf is doomed the second they start believing the hype about being an elf, and the effect is exponential the more elves are involved. This is just through 3rd ed, 4th and onward have just had some run of the mill stupid stuff that is neither interesting or remarkable, just annoying. Also I can't tell if I'm impressed or annoyed with the asspull that in the shadowrun 5th world, Tolkien got so much of the world right because he was accessing genetic memories of the 4th age and may have been a protomage but the mana levels were too low.
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Dec 16, 2019 08:49
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Ronwayne posted:Any one of these, but specifically orks going through puberty earlier and giving birth in "litters" Yeah, that double-whammy was, uh, always something I wasn't so thrilled about. They tried to back off from the latter in late 3rd and 4th, I think, claiming it was an 'early age of magic shift' thing, but only wound up leaning even harder into the former at the same time, so...uh. I mean, I kind of get what they were going for with the aging thing, particularly since Orks also had shorter maximum lifespans and they tried to tie the two together, the tragedy of having a shorter life and all that poo poo, but when a stirring speech (from an Ork character) about how the inequalities of human-centric society meant Orks were being discriminated against by not being able to legally gently caress younger and how unfair it was that they had to attend school until they were eighteen...ecchhh. I'd just handwave the changing mana ambience and give them, like, at least Troll lifespans, who, while they still die younger on average, it's explicitly due to socioeconomic factors, and it takes them just as long to mature as anybody else. That kind of poo poo always gets creepy fast, whether it's Kes from Voyager or Orks in SR.
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Dec 16, 2019 09:02
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Joe Slowboat posted:even more 'advanced' than Europe, but which had crumbled due to a lack of vigor and ethical drive. Largely get the same impression of the Drow there. Though I would not call them crumbling. Along with being more advanced and being better than other people at most things, they are a rising force.
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Dec 16, 2019 10:55
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EimiYoshikawa posted:Yeah, that double-whammy was, uh, always something I wasn't so thrilled about. They tried to back off from the latter in late 3rd and 4th, I think, claiming it was an 'early age of magic shift' thing, but only wound up leaning even harder into the former at the same time, so...uh. On the one hand, I understand the idea of different physiologies and cultures. On the other hand: "Creepy Artist": "But Chibi Demonica is a 14,000 year old succubus!" Any sane Mod: "Who looks like a six year old girl. Don't post stuff with people loving six year children." "CA:" "It's ANIME!" ASM: "And kiddie porn. Whatever other weird fetishes we have, please don't make us child fuckers even by proxy." Either situation, it's best to nip it in the bud. And no, Creepy Artist, that does not mean we want your Chibi Demonica clitoris pictures.
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Dec 16, 2019 11:06
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Everyone posted:In terms of (hopefully) unintentional racism/sexism that's pretty out there. I don't recall Gary Gygax being a horrible racist. Maybe a bit sexist. I'm sorry you had to find out this way. Dude was a horrific scumbag, an anti-Semite, a Libertarian and a fundamentalist.
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Dec 16, 2019 14:04
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You know Gygax's response to the 'classic' 'orc children' question was to use the quote 'nits make lice', right? Which is quoting a 19th century war criminal (someone the *US* acknowledged as a war criminal, who managed to outrage even 19th century America) and what he said when ordering the deaths of children at the Sand Creek Massacre? E: Though the fact that that ever became a gaming 'dilemma' (what do you do with the children and non-combatants of an orc camp you defeated or whatever) is a big part of why D&D constantly struggles to write 'Good' when you think about it. Night10194 fucked around with this message at 14:12 on Dec 16, 2019 |
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Dec 16, 2019 14:05
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Night10194 posted:You know Gygax's response to the 'classic' 'orc children' question was to use the quote 'nits make lice', right? Which is quoting a 19th century war criminal (someone the *US* acknowledged as a war criminal, who managed to outrage even 19th century America) and what he said when ordering the deaths of children at the Sand Creek Massacre? How many kids are really gonna be at a war camp? And why didn't they evacuate when it's clear they lost (and "we need to buy time for 'em to run" can be a reason for the orcs to fight to the death ; most tend to break first) ? E: my point is, you're right ; and also, this is silly
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Dec 16, 2019 14:19
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 A Song of Ice and Fire Roleplay: Why Are IP Tie-In Games Always So Clunky? Part 4: Warfare So far, we’ve covered a (brief) history and overview of Westeros, the Intrigue system, and the Combat system. In the third and final part of the series on Conflict Resolution in SIFRP, we’ll talk about Warfare. Warfare is SIFRP’s mass combat system. Well, nominally. As with the books on which the game is based, much emphasis is put on noble Houses. One of the investments a House can make, and indeed one of the more common and important, is in a standing army. These armies are made up of Units, which are themselves comprised of: 100 men, 20 men and horses, or 5 warships; the composition of a Unit varies (understandably) depending on the type. I’ll give a quick rundown on the different Unit types available shortly, but first I’ll address a key matter in Warfare: giving Orders. Each unit has a Discipline modifier, ranging from -6 to +6. Each time a Commander issues an Order to a Unit, they must make a Warfare test against a Unit’s Discipline. Untrained or unruly Units are harder to control, and well-trained Units are easier to boss around. A Commander can issue as many orders as their rank in Warfare. In addition, for every two full Units in an army, a Sub-Commander can be appointed. A Sub-Commander can only issue one order per turn, regardless of their Warfare rank. There are some basic Orders, as well as more advanced Orders available as a variant rule for the wargaming fans in the group. Some example Orders, and their Discipline modifiers, are as follows:
 As the (incomplete) sample list above might inform you, Basic Orders don’t confer any additional Discipline modifier. This means that Advanced Orders, despite in some ways being mechanically better (we’re going to come back to our friend Slash & Burn when we cover Houses), also penalize anyone So, without further ado, let’s take a look at the Units you’ll be ordering to
Wow, okay. That’s quite a lot of units. In addition to this, each unit has starting equipment, as well as the ability to upgrade their equipment (giving them better damage, or higher Armour Rating at the cost of some Armour Penalty) for a not-insubstantial sum of money. Because exchanges between units use the same rocket-tag logistics as personal combat, a well-equipped unit is a worthy investment if you’ve got the money lying around. This is all going to tie in nicely when we discuss Houses, and the creation and management thereof. The salient point right now is the Power investment required for units. Power, like Wealth and Population, is one of the resources a House needs manage. When you muster a Unit of men, the Power cost is placed in limbo. It’s not directly removed from your House (not yet, anyway) but you can’t spend it on anything until and unless you disband the unit. How much Power is a typical House going to have?  Probably in the 20-40 range. We’ll say 30 for good measure. So let’s look through the total costs of recruitment. The first decision made is the training level of the men in a Unit, ranging from Green to Elite. This establishes the base Power cost of the Unit, and affects their Discipline and how much experience they have to improve their abilities.  A Green Unit is obviously the cheapest, but relatively hard to control. Calling back to how Ability tests work, an “Average” person has a 27% chance of passing a Challenging (9) test - keep in mind that Unit types and Orders also affect this Discipline.  As a corollary, an Elite unit (while expensive) comes with the Automatic (0) difficulty, meaning that if the Unit type and Order don’t confer an additional Discipline penalty, you don’t even have to bother making the test. What a world to live in, where the clunky mass-combat system bolted on to a clunky IP-tie-in RPG doesn’t require you to make skill checks to have a unit move. Because we don’t want to be scraping the bottom of the barrel here, we’ll get a Trained unit. This means the base Power cost is 3, not unreasonable given our total of 30. Getting a Unit of Infantry increases this to 7 (since Infantry has a +4 to Power cost, and a +0 to Discipline). So far, so good. We’ll spend a unit of Wealth to get them better equipment, as well. And what the hell, we’re feeling saucy. Let’s get two. Because we don’t want our Infantry to be hung out to dry in a battle, we’ll get some Archers. Again, a Trained unit (base cost of 3) with a +3 from the unit type, bringing us to 6. And a point of Wealth to get them better equipment. So our total cost for our (meagre) army of 300 men is 20 Power and 3 Wealth. This leaves us a bit of breathing room with 10 Power to spend as we see fit. And, as mentioned before, this Power is invested and not lost. We can disband the unit to recoup the costs if we so choose. But what if the unit isn’t disbanded? Well, should the Unit be destroyed in battle, it’s gone along with the Power we invested. This makes sense (to me, at least) because of course your House is going to be weaker if you lose a bunch of soldiers. Which brings me to my next topic: How Warfare actually plays out. Each army must have a Commander. This is the character primarily responsible for issuing Orders, and tests their Warfare ability to do so. As mentioned previously, a Commander can issue as many Orders as their rank in Warfare. Orders are issued in a round-robin format; this means that, should you win the Initiative, you issue a single order first. After your first Order is resolved, the enemy Commander issues a single order. This continues until each Commander (and Sub-Commander, if any) has issued all of their Orders for the round. Should one Commander have fewer orders than the other, the tactical genius with more orders gets to issue the remainder in a row after the other Commander has exhausted theirs. Units have their Endurance Rank × 3 Health, and if their Health reaches 0 they become Disorganized. Remember the death spiral that was Wounds from character-scale combat? Yeah, it rears its ugly head here, too.  A Disorganized unit has a cumulative -1D (they roll one fewer test dice on all Ability checks), their Discipline modifier increases by +3 (meaning they’re harder to command) and if they take any further damage, they’ll Rout. A Commander (or Sub-Commander) can re-organize a Unit by giving them the appropriate Order, which fully restores their Health (somehow) and removes the Discipline penalty. The Unit keeps the -1D penalty, which is cumulative. A Unit that has been Disorganized twice will have a -2D penalty. If you have a Green unit (base Discipline 9) of Archers (Discipline +3) who are Disorganized (Discipline +3), the total difficulty of a Re-Organize Order will be 15 (mercifully, the Re-Organize order itself does not confer a Discipline penalty). Let’s pull out that chances of success table again: A character focusing on Warfare will likely have Rank 4 or 5, conferring a 44%-77% chance of success on Re-Organize, respectively. So what happens when a Disorganized unit takes damage? Why, they Rout.  They will attempt to flee the battlefield at the nearest opportunity, cannot be ordered otherwise barring a Rally order. Rally, like Re-Organize, doesn’t confer a Discipline penalty. A Routed unit that is successfully Rallied will become Disorganized, requiring another check to bring them out of that state. A Routed unit that takes any damage will be Destroyed. That one is probably pretty self-explanatory. So your army has survived a battle! Now what?  Well, you get to roll 1d6 for each Unit in your army, and compare to the table above. You subtract 1 from the d6 roll for each time the unit was Disorganized (after the first). So even if they were successfully re-organized and are now Undamaged, you could still lose valuable Training levels from the unit. Oh, and to twist the knife: If the Unit’s Training would be reduced below the lowest level (Green), it’s destroyed instead. Meaning there’s yet another good reason to not field poorly-trained armies.  You posted:What are the rest of the party members supposed to do while one person is playing general? Ah! Good question. I touched on this a bit in a Murphy for this system (because why not link it here and create an infinite  of picking out flaws in SIFRP). Players who don’t have the luxury of being a Commander instead get a list of Player Actions they can take during a round of Warfare.  These are divided into First Player Actions, which take place before orders are issued each round, and Second Player Actions, which take place after orders. Because the scale of Warfare is larger, the rounds take longer. Rather than the 6 seconds standard across the genre for character-scale, they are a full minute in length. This translates to the characters taking Player Actions having 10 rounds’ worth of actions to take. The Player Actions range from “ordering Units to re-organize” (super-duper useful, given the penalties for Disorganization or Routing) to “suicidally charge an entire unit of 100 men head-on.” You could Attach yourself to a Unit, making them easier to command and better at Fightan’, but then you wouldn’t have anything to do for the rest of the battle unless you Detached yourself. If you have a character optimized for Combat (of the character-scale variety) you could assault a portion of an enemy Unit, 10 men at a time, and likely Disorganize or Rout at least one full unit of 100 men. Otherwise? I hope you enjoy sitting on your hands as one of your party members plays out a wargame against the GM by themself. A Song of Ice and Fire Roleplaying: Core Rulebook posted:The rules of warfare are specifically designed to be a natural extension You don’t say. If I had to try and assess the intent behind the Warfare system (which I will, because I’m the one doing the review) I’d say that at first blush it sounds like a good idea. There’s a level of customization and depth here that rivals that of character-scale adventures, and it ties in supremely well with the House Management system. You have a limited number of resources and you have to allocate them intelligently to build a capable fighting force. It just happens to fall flat in the execution, which is (I would argue) the most important part of a game. To wit, my issues are chiefly the following:
If you play the game with a variant ruleset, per the core rulebook, each player could control a House rather than a Character. This, to my mind, is the best (and only) way to involve yourself in the Warfare system. Mass combat has always been a sticking point in tabletop RPGs. I would humbly posit that bolting a wargame on top of an RPG isn’t the way to resolve this. Next Time: We get into character creation and, if we have the time, character advancement
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Dec 16, 2019 17:08
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Ah, the over-complex subsystem. An evergreen part of RPG work. Bonus points if it primarily involves only one player.
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Dec 16, 2019 17:15
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Night10194 posted:Bonus points if it primarily involves only one player. We can't have the entire party getting in on the fun! What would even be the point of that in a social game?
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Dec 16, 2019 17:19
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Looking at the "slash & burn order" - ain't the system trying to represent a battle, rather than an extended campaign?
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Dec 16, 2019 17:27
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Gun Jam posted:Looking at the "slash & burn order" - ain't the system trying to represent a battle, rather than an extended campaign? This particular subsystem, yes. I'll touch on it in more depth when I go over House Management, but that order in particular is absolutely broken to all hell. I appreciate the intent in including it, as it fits in thematically with roving armies intent on recreating Sherman's March to the Sea, but reducing resources is incredibly punishing to the recipient.
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Dec 16, 2019 17:34
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Althalin posted:This particular subsystem, yes. I'll touch on it in more depth when I go over House Management, but that order in particular is absolutely broken to all hell. Isn't "punishing the recipient" kind of the point of "Slash and Burn?" Still, if it's that damaging to another House it should carry some risk, right? Like maybe the House getting S&B gets some kind of big Morale bonus for being pissed as hell at their burned stuff and raped smallfolk? Or that the unit doing all that burning and raping will be automatically destroyed if they encounter a hostile unit after the S&B because they'll be too drunk and glutted with loot and rape to properly defend themselves? Perhaps it causes difficulty in relations with other Houses who wish to pretend they're not just as much evil shitstains as the S&Bers? Notice I'm not making moral/ethical objection because this is Game of Thrones.
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Dec 16, 2019 17:54
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Althalin posted:This particular subsystem, yes. I'll touch on it in more depth when I go over House Management, but that order in particular is absolutely broken to all hell. Also, considering that this order is there (mass combat), I'm guessing there isn't rules for war (where such order belongs)? Everyone posted:Notice I'm not making moral/ethical objection because this is Game of Thrones. The fact that other people will hate you, and if you win you gotta watch 'em lest they rebel, is absolutely in line with the books, and should be the moral objection.
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Dec 16, 2019 18:15
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Everyone posted:Isn't "punishing the recipient" kind of the point of "Slash and Burn?" Still, if it's that damaging to another House it should carry some risk, right? Like maybe the House getting S&B gets some kind of big Morale bonus for being pissed as hell at their burned stuff and raped smallfolk? Or that the unit doing all that burning and raping will be automatically destroyed if they encounter a hostile unit after the S&B because they'll be too drunk and glutted with loot and rape to properly defend themselves? Perhaps it causes difficulty in relations with other Houses who wish to pretend they're not just as much evil shitstains as the S&Bers? You're not wrong. It is absolutely the point of the Order. The issue arises in that this is an amount of Slashing and Burning that takes place over 1 minute and can be repeated every round until the Warfare is over. Gun Jam posted:Also, considering that this order is there (mass combat), I'm guessing there isn't rules for war (where such order belongs)? You'd be correct. There's some guidance for inter-House conflict, but nothing nearly as codified as any of the three conflict resolution systems (Intrigue, Combat, Warfare) If there were a penalty for the Unit doing the Slashing and Burning, it would be a lot less enticing as an option. Something like a -1D to tests, or that they have effectively no Combat Defense until the next round. As it stands, it's solely punishing in the opportunity cost of not having that Unit do something that's immediately beneficial in the battle at hand, instead choosing to inflict larger-scale economic damage. As to causing difficulty in relations - yes, this is absolutely something that the GM should be considering. That said, there is no guidance in terms of penalties to be applied, or anything at all. What you see in that description is the entirety of the space that the rulebook devotes to the concept. Everyone posted:Notice I'm not making moral/ethical objection because this is Game of Thrones. I think you've hit the nail on the head. This IS Game of Thrones, and there would probably be some sort of land-scouring-apologia and whining if it wasn't included in the game. This fits perfectly with the canon and lore, particularly in the later books as rogue armies are devastating the countryside out of self-preservation or sheer malice. As it stands, this is an interesting idea that could best be leveraged at a more strategic, rather than tactical, scale and the long-term large-scale economic effects of the Order should be balanced with a mechanical detriment to the aggressor. Unfortunately, it falls kind of flat in actual execution and leads to what may be the single most effective cheesing strategy in the game. So it unfortunately fits perfectly with the rest of the game's execution.
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Dec 16, 2019 18:22
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Night10194 posted:You know Gygax's response to the 'classic' 'orc children' question was to use the quote 'nits make lice', right? Which is quoting a 19th century war criminal (someone the *US* acknowledged as a war criminal, who managed to outrage even 19th century America) and what he said when ordering the deaths of children at the Sand Creek Massacre Do you have an actual quote for this one? The only one I can find is in response to whether a Lawful Good character is allowed to kill surrendered/imprisoned enemies with Evil alignment, nothing about killing orc children. http://hackslashmaster.blogspot.com/2013/06/on-alignment-by-gygax.html This is the only particular quote I could find of his using that term. So, uh, while I realize Gygax probably wasn't perfect and probably inherited at least some racist attitudes from his time, I'd at least like a sourced quote before attributing this one to him.
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Dec 16, 2019 20:38
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PurpleXVI posted:Do you have an actual quote for this one? The only one I can find is in response to whether a Lawful Good character is allowed to kill surrendered/imprisoned enemies with Evil alignment, nothing about killing orc children. That's where I get that one. He is directly quoting Col. John Chivington, who is quoted using the term 'nits make lice' to justify why he was ordering his men to slaughter and scalp children at the Sand Creek Massacre. He himself uses Chivington as the source of the turn of phrase, in that speech. So he's definitely aware of who he's quoting and what it was about. I'm saying him citing the mindset of a 19th century war criminal who was too brutal against the native americans even for 19th century America's sensibilities as how you should treat surrendered prisoners and stuff is why you get people arguing about what you do with surrendered 'evil races' and their non-combatants, because that is a weird as hell model for him to have ever cited for how Lawful Good should act. Now mind, I'm aware that Gygax's idea was effectively that alignment should have nothing to do with ethics and mostly be team jerseys about who you could kill without much consequence, but that's hardly better. And the whole 'you should kill them after they repent so they go to heaven and can't backslide' thing just sounds nuts as hell.
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Dec 16, 2019 20:47
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Has anyone really ever confronted the DL module writers? Did they ever have to publickly defend how dogshit unplayable and super railroady they are? Or did they just get to sleep on their laurels?
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Dec 16, 2019 20:50
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Night10194 posted:That's where I get that one. He is directly quoting Col. John Chivington, who is quoted using the term 'nits make lice' to justify why he was ordering his men to slaughter and scalp children at the Sand Creek Massacre. He himself uses Chivington as the source of the turn of phrase, in that speech. So he's definitely aware of who he's quoting and what it was about. Yeah okay that's fair, I thought you said he'd specifically gone: "KILL ALL 'EM DIRTY GREENSKIN BABIES BEFORE THEY GROW UP TO BE EVIL." To me the "can't backslide"-thing sounded more like, "they're probably lying to save their own skins, so chop their brains open and if they were honest they'll go to heaven, if they weren't they'll go where they belong." In either case, yeah, considering Gary's age, I am in no way surprised that he had some more-or-less grandpa racist views. I'm somewhat glad he was at least partially out of the loop on my favourite editions, less of a central figure. JcDent posted:Has anyone really ever confronted the DL module writers? Did they ever have to publickly defend how dogshit unplayable and super railroady they are? Or did they just get to sleep on their laurels? But you go to play as Tasslehoff and experience Fizban's wacky shenanigans! Just like in the book! And lol are we ever gonna get some bullshit in DL7 part two. Coming soon two a thread near you.
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Dec 16, 2019 20:53
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The thing that's so drat weird about it is why the gently caress would you go to CHIVINGTON? Like, of all the figures to go to, why the architect of a terrible and infamous massacre? There's all sorts of stuff you could cite for a generic edgy 'a brutal world needs brutal solutions to deter brutality' nonsense take, why specifically go to the infamous war criminal? E: Basically there's just something so off about Gygax specifically going there and using that specific turn of phrase (and saying Chivington was hardly the first to note it as 'an observable fact' that sets my teeth on edge. Night10194 fucked around with this message at 21:00 on Dec 16, 2019 |
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Dec 16, 2019 20:56
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Night10194 posted:The thing that's so drat weird about it is why the gently caress would you go to CHIVINGTON? Like, of all the figures to go to, why the architect of a terrible and infamous massacre? There's all sorts of stuff you could cite for a generic edgy 'a brutal world needs brutal solutions to deter brutality' nonsense take, why specifically go to the infamous war criminal? spoilers: it's because Gary Gygax was scum
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Dec 16, 2019 21:00
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Mors Rattus posted:spoilers: it's because Gary Gygax was scum Funny how those things go with D&D. 
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Dec 16, 2019 21:29
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Night10194 posted:You know Gygax's response to the 'classic' 'orc children' question was to use the quote 'nits make lice', right? Which is quoting a 19th century war criminal (someone the *US* acknowledged as a war criminal, who managed to outrage even 19th century America) and what he said when ordering the deaths of children at the Sand Creek Massacre? I now realize that the most authentic D&D novelization is probably Blood Meridian 
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Dec 16, 2019 22:16
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His feet are light and nimble. He never sleeps. He says that he will never die. He dances in light and in shadow and he is a great favorite. He never sleeps, the elf. He is dancing, dancing. He says that he will never die. He cannot be paralyzed by the attacks of ghouls, and has 90% resistance to sleep and charm spells.
Halloween Jack fucked around with this message at 22:45 on Dec 16, 2019 |
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Dec 16, 2019 22:32
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Ronwayne posted:I now realize that the most authentic D&D novelization is probably Blood Meridian If D&D were more Gnostic it would only be an improvement. I’m here for this. E: Halloween Jack, you have created a thing of terrible beauty.
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Dec 16, 2019 22:33
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Night10194 posted:The thing that's so drat weird about it is why the gently caress would you go to CHIVINGTON? Like, of all the figures to go to, why the architect of a terrible and infamous massacre? There's all sorts of stuff you could cite for a generic edgy 'a brutal world needs brutal solutions to deter brutality' nonsense take, why specifically go to the infamous war criminal? When talking about why there's so few female gamers, Gygax also mentioned that he's a biological determinist. Although saying this in regards to women (which is still terrible and cringey), it combined with the above does not paint a very rosey picture. Biological determinism is a form of philosophical determinism which posits that every major personality trait and life decision is affected entirely by one's genetic structure, and no amount of environmental factors can change this. Gygax posited this as why there's much less women gamers than men, viewing the activities of tabletop games (and competition in general) as something female brains just can't grok or enjoy. What's strangely funny about this was that this post was on EN World and Dragonsfoot in a forum interview, around the early Aughties IIRC. Meaning that games with a larger-than-normal female fanbase like Vampire existed for a decade by now. It is also a philosophy which has most infamously been promoted by white supremacists, for obvious reasons. Although Gygax has not say, praised the Nazi Party or KKK (he did take a dim view of Germany's totalitarianism) that doesn't make the above any less excusable. Libertad! fucked around with this message at 23:32 on Dec 16, 2019 |
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Dec 16, 2019 23:27
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How bad was Dave Arneson compared to Gygax? You don't hear as much about him (for "sidelined out of TSR" values of not much about him)
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Dec 16, 2019 23:37
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Okay, quoting a 19th century racist rear end in a top hat war criminal does give you a few ranks in "Shitheel." On the other hand, he was quoting it about Orcs. Orcs are imaginary creatures. Presumably you don't cry bitter tears of guilt when you kill a bunch of people in a video game. This is the same thing. Drow Elf culture was likely based on Orientalist crap, but it's still elves - another totally fictional creature. The war criminal used his quote to justify the slaughter of actual human children. Gygax quoting that in regards to Orcs doesn't make him a war criminal as well. It just makes him a bit of an rear end in a top hat. And not for nothing, but the main reason we're able to have this discussion in this thread within the Traditional Games portion of the Something Awful Forum is that we have "Traditional Games." Board Games aside, that's pretty much down to Gary Gygax.
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Dec 16, 2019 23:41
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Tradgames existed before Gygax, would exist without Gygax, and honestly often existed despite Gygax. We don’t need to keep parroting the hagiography of a racist libertarian nut job in this hobby, it’s 2019.
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Dec 16, 2019 23:47
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Everyone posted:Okay, quoting a 19th century racist rear end in a top hat war criminal does give you a few ranks in "Shitheel." If Orcs existed and you slaughtered their babies, you'd be a war criminal. Like, if someone advocated war crimes against a fictional nation of humans, I'd have some really pointed questions. The people in question being a different fictional species doesn't really make a huge difference here. Gygax doesn't need your defense. Dude is dead and his works live on. While we participate in those works and their derivatives, we should analyze their flaws and attempt to do better. There's a racism and an imperialism at the heart of archetypal D&D play, and quotes like that from Gygax reinforce that and let us know it was, if not fully intentional, at least not undesirable from his perspective. That's worthy of criticism.
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Dec 16, 2019 23:51
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The messages we put into fiction, and the messages we take from fiction, matter quite a bit. People both inform and reflect their views of the world by the media they consume and the stories they create. When the fiction parallels very real atrocities, the message it delivers bears examination. You can be critical of media you consume even if you continue to consume it and enjoy it. I mean, take me. I loving love Warhammer Fantasy. I love it so much I spent 4 years writing thousands of words in these threads about it and about why it excited me and helped me write stories I enjoyed playing and playing in. Warhammer Fantasy has a ton of really weird and bad stuff in it. There are cores of better ideas and interesting ideas, but there's no defending a bunch of it. Yes, it's all fiction, but it's fiction that can reflect really ugly real-world thinking. Being aware of that helps you to understand where things came from, why they came from there, and maybe how to do better.
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Dec 16, 2019 23:53
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Ultiville posted:If Orcs existed and you slaughtered their babies, you'd be a war criminal. Like, if someone advocated war crimes against a fictional nation of humans, I'd have some really pointed questions. The people in question being a different fictional species doesn't really make a huge difference here. "But they're listed in Mein Kamph as Always Chaotic Evil!" protested the stormtrooper, as he reloaded his sub-machinegun.
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Dec 16, 2019 23:53
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Dragonlance Dragons of Light Chapter 8: Foghaven Vale Alright, so when we last left off, the party, accompanied by a random mercenary, a polar bear, a magic elf dog, a native elf, a burly blacksmith with a magic arm and a saber-tooth kitten had finally made it to Foghaven Vale, the only thing between them and getting to the Solamnic Knights on South Ergoth and relative safety. Now, if I tell you that the Solamnic Knights are to the northwest and show you this map:  Can you tell me what the problem is? That's right, there's no actual exit to the northwest. Instead, the party has to march up to that giant statue to the north and explore a dungeon to get to the knights. Oh and there's the vale itself to contend with as well, as soon as the party enters they're more or less railroaded straight to Theodenes the Gnome, of no great story importance, he just stole a magic healing statue from the ogres in Daltigoth and is now on the run from Thunderbane, son of Stormogre, the giant leader of the ogres. He joins up by claiming to know a path through the dragon statue to safety, and then the ogres attack right afterwards, giving the party a choice between surrender into slavery(lol) or butchering Thunderbane and his crew. Stormogre and a pair of Hill Giants will start the battle by throwing boulders at spellcasters from the back lines, while ten ogres rush into melee combat, clogging up the party's melee line. The problem here is that the party's two casters are Elistan and Gilthanas. Gilthanas has 25HP, Elistan has 49. Each thrown boulder does 2d8 damage. With Stormogre described as reasonably tactically capable, they'll probably focus fire on one target at a time, dealing 6 to 48 damage if all their boulders hit, it's very likely for both of them, but even more likely for Elistan than Gilthanas. 3 Ra of damage in a single round is pretty rough for a completely unavoidable encounter, especially with everyone else focused on not getting pulped by ten ogres and thus probably unable to do anything about the ogres' ranged backup for a while. The ogres aren't quite the equal of the party's melee fighters one for one, but they take a lot of chopping down to finish off, and time is on the ogres' side as Gilthanas and Elistan are unlikely to survive more than a couple of rounds, and then the boulders are going to splatter characters like Laurana and Tasslehoff in short time. Evening out the fight is the party's upgrades since the last adventure, Elistan is now level 9, and the human fighters(Sturm, Aaron and Derek) are level 10, 9 and 8 respectively. Unfortunately Clerics don't have much offensive potential and Fighters in 1E don't yet have the same rapidly escalating lethality as in 2E. We're not told Gilthanas' spells, but assuming he's not a moron and has learned Fireball, Lightning Bolt or other big boom magical artillery stuff, his init roll could do a lot to decide the fight. Unfortunately, outside of spell use, really all the party can do is wade in and roll D20's until one side stops breathing. Most of the valley is unremarkable and quiet, even the random encounters are relatively mild, though the party can run across a few interesting things, like Dargent's lair. If she's polymorphed, it's just a big fat pile of loot in a cave, if she's possessed someone with Magic Jar there's a big sleeping dragon on the loot. Obviously if there's a dragon, attacking said sleeping dragon makes Dargent drop her control, return to body and flee(after stun-gassing the party), and generally Dargent will be pissy about the party stealing the loot(and will demand it back later when her disguise is busted one way or another). The loot is also, it should be noted, kind of garbage. It's just pure money, and there are few-to-no gold sinks in this game since the party never really has a chance to buy anything other than fresh arrows for the archers and maybe the occasional armor upgrade for the fighters. Generally attacking or despoiling the valley gets you attacked by stuff like pondkeeper nixies or moon dogs, but if you stay chill and just beeline for the shrine, you won't get hosed over. But surely, before entering a clearly marked dungeon, the party will need a rest after fighting Stormogre... surprise! Resting in Foghaven is a trap, since it triggers the Grey Wraith that's been stalking Theros to attack. It'll almost certainly be flattened by the party's advantageous action economy and their all having magic weapons. It's immune to turning in the presence of Theros' silver arm, but that doesn't matter, turning undead was always pointless against single powerful undead anyway, it was meant to flatten hordes of skeletons and zombies until you were an epic level priest that could disintegrate vampires just by thinking about it. The problem is that the fucker, of course, level drains, and it's very likely to get in at least a couple of whacks before it goes down. gently caress off, level drainers. They can also loot Huma's tomb on the way for some nice magic gear, but it causes a temporary curse(-1 to hit and -1 to all saves) until his shield and sword are wielded against an evil dragon. Considering that evil dragons are very prevalent, and the sword is a Dragonslayer sword, and the shield a protection-against-breath weapons shield, this is a great trade. We'll probably get hit by some more evil dragons in about five minutes, anyway. Chapter 9: The Stone Dragon So the Stone Dragon is huge, it's meant to be a small series of combat encountes in itself climbing up along it and battling creatures dwelling in its nooks and crannies. When they eventually clamber over it, there's even a small Aarakroca town behind it(well-disposed to them as long as they're not dickheads, otherwise pointless), telling them that they just missed a bunch of Sivaks who broke into the Stone Dragon through the secret door in the spine. The actual climbing is very loving dull, just repeated checks to see if you fall and die and some extremely generic combat. For a supposed shrine to goodness, the interior of the Stone Dragon also has some dickhead tricks. quote:The walls of this room are dotted with small holes, as if burrowing insects had nested in the solid rock. There are 10 piles of thick gold bars in this room, each pile containing 20 bricks. So firstly, the trap is loving stupid, because by now the players should know gold is worthless on Ansalon. Secondly, what purpose did this room serve when the Stone Dragon was operational as a forge for Dragonlances? Thirdly, that's up to 1.2 Ra of unavoidable damage just for entering the room. Goddamn. And if the players try to reach the gold they don't know is fake, they might eat even more for no loving reward at all! In another, similar room, worthless-looking bricks are actually steel bricks and the same trap is set. Now, firstly, after seeing the obvious bricks as worthless, the players could reasonably assume that the non-obvious bricks have worth. But why would there be steel bricks under guard? The shrine was from pre-Cataclysm where steel wasn't the main item of value! Another area has four Stone Guardians, which hand out 4 to 18 damage per round, have 10HD each and are hard to hit at all, but mercifully have the weakness of not being too great at hitting the party themselves. They also take half damage from edged weapons, which everyone except Elistan is using and resist most elemental damage, making Gilthanas useless. Their massive durability alone might allow them to wear down the party, especially if they get in a couple of hits on weaker party members like Gilthanas, Laurana or Tasslehoff. They're also a non-optional encounter, so gently caress you for playing, I guess. There's also a corridor that locks players into a damage race against a statue on rollers that will squish them if they don't break it before it pins them against the wall. It doesn't seem like there's any way to determine if people get crushed before they get pinned against the wall, but that does 4 to 40 damage, slightly short of 3 Ra and enough to kill 3 out of 8 party members. The party has three rounds to do 60 damage to break it, not an awful lot, but if they've already fought the Stone Guardians and know how tough they are, they might try other ways of escaping before they start handing out damage, and only high-Dex party members have a hope of getting around the statue without just doing more damage to themselves. Flint, Sturm and Elistan are pretty likely to pooch said rolls. Though at least there are no random encounters inside the Stone Dragon, for once, so the party can actually take their time and rest up between each merciless asskicking the place delivers. Proceeding upwards, towards' the dragon's head the players encounter the cruelest trap yet... loving Fizban is back. He's murdered a bunch of draconians and then decided to take a nap, but wakes up when they arrive. He apparently knows that the party couldn't have gotten this far without some help, and thus instantly knows Dargent is among them(though it should be noted that the only thing Dargent's actually done is let them out of Elf Prison if they got themselves locked up by the Qualinesti or Silvanesti, otherwise she's been pretty passive). He does some lame wacky magic tricks and starts yelling at Dargent about "THE OATH, THE OATH, YOU FOOOOOOL"(i.e. the fact that the good dragons' eggs are forfeit if they're found to be awake and acting in the mortal world), and the party can either side with Dargent or Fizban. They should side with Dargent and chase the old senile gently caress off, for reasons about to become apparent soon, though it feels like the text tries to make them side with Fizban, because the text was written by assholes. If they side with Fizban, he just mutters some vague poo poo and trails along being useless. If they side with Dargent, she does at least tell them where the treasure in the place is, but is as mysterious as he is. If the party just stands and watches, they have a sick anime battle and then both disappear. At the end of the area, they find the Dragonlances and the forge needed to make more, but between them and that is the Last Guardian, where it's important that they send Tasslehoff off to sit in a corner. See, the Guardian gets stronger with every attacker, but Good attackers empower it less than Neutral and Evil ones, and Tasslehoff's damage contribution is negligible in any case. Honestly, probably the pro-est strat here is just to send Sturm in to solo it so it gains the least buffs, because the buffs also include an AC boost, so the more guys join in on trying to slam it, the stronger it gets. Of course, this is a mechanic never alluded to, to the players, except with vague hints("the only evil is the evil you bring with you!" yells a statue at them, just before the fight, which most would probably just have thought was a Star Wars reference, another goes: "One pure-hearted can do the work of many!"), so they can't necessarily interact with it(and even if they do, it's basically just one guy doing the fight while everyone else takes a smoke break). They can only be surprised when the entire party joining in drops it to -5AC, increases the damage done to 2d6+9 and triples its HP total as well as guaranteeing that every attack it makes will hit. This is, in fact, probably the most dangerous setup for it since it'll be near-impossible to hit, will be guaranteed to land almost every blow and will be able to finish off most members of the party in two hits as well as being highly magic resistant. Luckily for the party, the story requires that they survive and reach the Dragonlances. The dragonlances... are good! Sort of. Kind of. It depends very much on how the battle starts. See, like a dragon's breath weapon, they do damage equal to the user's total HP(or in the case of the dragonrider lance, equal to the user's + the ridden dragon's), which means that whether said enemy dragon gets off the breath weapon first, or whether the lance wielder attacks first, very much determines how the battle is going to go, since both are going to do more damage if they go first, and less damage if they go second. As it stands, currently the party's high-Con Fighters(Sturm, Derek and Flint) could each annihilate any dragon encountered so far in at most two blows if they were at full HP. Ember would be the only dragon met so far that wouldn't go down like a wet sack of noodles from the first whack. In the books, the dragonlances broke after most uses due to being impaled in a dying, writhing massive creature, but the rules here don't seem to bear that out though it's kind of thematically neat to have them be one-shot weapons. Of course there's also the issue that the dragonlances are lances, i.e. melee weapons, and dragons fought outside can just stand off at breath weapon distance and blast the party from the sky while laughing. Aside from finding the forge for the dragonlances, the Stone Dragon also contains the material for them, Dragonmetal(very creative, I know), the source of which is guarded by a stone golem. The first sign that joining Dargent was the smart choice is when she just tells the golem to gently caress off rather than the party having to fight it. This pool also, by the text, basically lets Theros forge them all +1 gear if they need it, there are no rules set for him needing it, but presumably they can hold him hostage until he kits everyone out in +1 armor and weapons(most already have it, but still!). The second hint that Dargent was the right choice is when the party tries to leave the Stone Dragon through the passage that will take them to northwest Ergoth and the Solamnic Knight camp. Because three white dragons attack(if the party let enemies escape earlier, they're summoned by the escapees, otherwise they arrive anyway. Thanks a lot, Dragonlance). Now, if the party has Fizban along, his foot gets stuck in a hole and he does nothing except uselessly try to free it while the dragons chain-blast the party with their breath weapons, TPK'ing them. If the party has Dargent along, on the other hand... she drops the disguise and lets a party member mount up with a rider's lance and engage the white dragons in the air. quote:This is the party’s first opportunity to use the Dragonlances from the Stone Dragon. If Dargent is present, she polymorphs into her natural form and takes a hero aloft. If she does this, she tells her rider that all the white dragons must be slain so that no word of her actions reaches outside ears. If Fizban is present, he begins to cast a spell, steps backward into a shallow hole, and struggles to free himself for the remainder of the conflict. The white dragons do not notice him. You can't even use him as a distraction! Also the text explicitly states that the dragons will strat as I suggested, multiple breath weapon strafing runs before landing and engaging in melee if anyone's still alive(lol at that loving idea, their HP is randomly determined and can be anywhere from 18, 1.2 Ra, to 144, 9.6 Ra, but most likely around 81, 5.4 Ra... per round. The worst case scenario is just shy of 30 Ra over all the dragons' breath weapons, which I think is the most absurdly murderous encounter so far. If the White Dragon scouts roll max HP, the party is instantly evaporated, if they roll minimum HP, Tasslehoff kills them all with a thrown rock. Genius game design). With Dargent as a mount to engage the dragons in the air it's entirely possible that she and her rider might one-shot one of them, and at the very least it won't be hitting the grounded part of the party with its breath weapon would trying to fight them off. The idea of any party having decent odds of winning the fight if they sided with Fizban over Dargent is idiotic. You know what the worst part is, though? After the fight, if Dargent is around, she authorizes Theros to use the Stone Dragon's forges to mass produce Dragonlances, and then the party travels to the Solamnic Knight camp at last... and then loving Fizban shows up again! And this time he doesn't disappear, he sticks around, presumably to instantly make the players' lives miserable at the start of DL8.  Kree! Writing Fizban into a story should count as a crime against humanity! Bring Tracy Hickman before the ICC!You read my mind, Skeleton Warrior. Unfortunately, we'll have to gather more evidence for the court... Next up: DL8, Dragons of War!
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Dec 17, 2019 00:22
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