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Boxman posted:Anyway, I'm surprised to see AotC get so much love. Rewatching 2 and 3, I was struck by how the climax of 3 pretty much hit the mark and 2 just...sorta flopped around with potentially big impact moments. Like, Obi-Wan finding the army is presented in this very matter-of-fact way that belies the fact that there is some profoundly bad poo poo going on. He finds out someone is using a dead Jedi name to amass an unauthorized army and the reaction of 3 Jedi masters is "hm, that's not good, we'll keep an eye on that." Even when the clone army joins the fight, it's all played for spectacle until Yoda takes a moment to say "war were declared." AotC got one of the biggest pops I've experienced in theaters when Yoda pulled out his lightsaber, so I think one big difference in how people view that movie is if they saw it in the theater and value that experience or if they decided Yoda flipping around is actually stupid. Personally, I really enjoyed that part on my first viewing, and didn't really feel all that negatively about the movie as a whole (though as far as I can recall the romance always felt super awkward), but I rewatched it at home when it came out on DVD and thought the whole thing was tedious as hell.
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Dec 28, 2019 04:22
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I don't like the dialogue in the prequels because it doesn't feel like things people would say to each other, and I like stuff that either sounds like things I can imagine real people saying or that is witty or cool or evocative or otherwise interesting, and there's very little dialogue like that I can remember from the prequels. I will say the same is largely true of The Last Jedi, a lot of the dialogue in that movie is kind of frustratingly not quite good enough. One that really sticks in my mind is right at the end when Rey finds the entrance to the cave her friends are in and it's covered up by a rockslide. Aha, I think, Luke disdainfully said the Force isn't about lifting rocks, but now Rey's triumphant use of the Force to save the day is going to be exactly by doing that very thing. A very nice bookend. Then Rey says "Lifting Rocks." to make absolutely sure I get it.
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Dec 28, 2019 04:27
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The Little Death posted:I don't think people hated the Phantom Menace at the time, I think the major hatred only started with AotC because it had a big romance plot in it. I remember the same thing. If I had to speculate, I'd say that the fans were primed by the 90s marketing of the EU to expect a certain kind of story from the Star Wars series. The perfect example of this was Shadows of the Empire, the '96 "multimedia project" that was designed "to explore all commercial possibilities of a full motion picture release without actually making a film." It took place between ESB and RotJ and starred Dash Rendar, Han Solo's cousin (iirc?) who was even cooler and flew the Outrider, which was like the Aluminum Falcon but even cooler. Any older goons remember that? The older kid in my 4th grade posse has the toy Outrider and it was the coolest thing. The cockpit and gun mount were on a joint and the whole loving thing rotated.  TPM wasn't the kind of film those fans wanted, but it was excused because it was seen to be building up toward the kind of film they expected. (And as the Outrider proved would, spinning was a cool trick.) But after AotC was released, it was plainly obvious that the story those fans had expected and the story Lucas intended to tell weren't just different, but antithetical. Anakin had all the magical powers you could imagine, but rather than being bad rear end like Dash Rendar he was powerless and lame -- and worse, his lameness was the whole point of the story! I was in light of that's when TPM went from "it's basically a kids story but it's good" to "it's bad because Lucas doesn't understand
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Dec 28, 2019 04:42
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There was an insane amount of vitriol from nerds toward movie romances in general during the 2000s, deservedly or not.
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Dec 28, 2019 04:46
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Boxman posted:Anyway, I'm surprised to see AotC get so much love. Rewatching 2 and 3, I was struck by how the climax of 3 pretty much hit the mark and 2 just...sorta flopped around with potentially big impact moments. Like, Obi-Wan finding the army is presented in this very matter-of-fact way that belies the fact that there is some profoundly bad poo poo going on. He finds out someone is using a dead Jedi name to amass an unauthorized army and the reaction of 3 Jedi masters is "hm, that's not good, we'll keep an eye on that." Even when the clone army joins the fight, it's all played for spectacle until Yoda takes a moment to say "war were declared." Episode 2 is a comedy, and one of the many jokes is that Obiwan doesn’t care about the clone army. He takes a tour of the facility and pretends to be interested in order to get closer to Jango Fett. Keep in mind that the clones are not actually revealed to be ‘evil’ until Episode 3. In the context of Episode 2, the cloning facility is simply the place where Jango works. As for being ‘unauthorized’, the creation of the clone army was actually fully authorized by The Senate. “Sifo Dyas”, to the extent that such a person ever existed, was acting as a liaison between The Senate and the ‘Cloners’. Nothing technically illegal was going on. The other big joke is that Yoda pretends to have known about the Senate’s secret project all along, because otherwise he’d look like an idiot.
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Dec 28, 2019 04:49
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Boxman posted:Anyway, I'm surprised to see AotC get so much love. Rewatching 2 and 3, I was struck by how the climax of 3 pretty much hit the mark and 2 just...sorta flopped around with potentially big impact moments. Like, Obi-Wan finding the army is presented in this very matter-of-fact way that belies the fact that there is some profoundly bad poo poo going on. He finds out someone is using a dead Jedi name to amass an unauthorized army and the reaction of 3 Jedi masters is "hm, that's not good, we'll keep an eye on that." Even when the clone army joins the fight, it's all played for spectacle until Yoda takes a moment to say "war were declared." Yoda goes whole hog chopping droids up until he solemnly realizes that he just started a loving war -- and then it hard cuts to Anakin and Padme's wedding. It's hilarious.
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Dec 28, 2019 04:55
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YaketySass posted:There was an insane amount of vitriol from nerds toward movie romances in general during the 2000s, deservedly or not. It's really deserved. Very few action films can build up action and romance simultaneously. Just like very few romance films can also build up action plausibly. The only one off the top of my head is Gattaca
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Dec 28, 2019 05:03
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Schwarzwald posted:TPM is the better film but Geonosis is probably the best set piece and action sequence in Star Wars. Perhaps if Duel of the Fates didn't exist. Or Bespin. MrFlibble posted:uh whats your point? TLJ haters pointed out that the third film would have a lower opening weekend because people will have given up on the trilogy after TLJ and that seems to have happened so i'm not sure what you're saying. So why isn't this the same explanation for TLJ? It's almost like they're all full of poo poo! euphronius posted:TPM still has spielbergian pacing which even puts me off and I can usually handle a slow movie. Here's the thing: "modern standards" are loving garbage. Shiroc posted:Han in Empire is a tremendous negging creep who ignores all of Leia's attempts to get him to respect any kind of boundaries. Her immediate reaction when 3PO interrupts Han forcing a kiss on her is to run the gently caress away. The only reason why it doesn't come off horribly is because 1980 Harrison Ford is incredibly attractive and charming and Kirshner directs everything to be sympathetic to him in spite of the actual action. She was into him the whole time tho. Not sure if you're on the mark with this one. Grandpa Palpatine fucked around with this message at 05:12 on Dec 28, 2019 |
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Dec 28, 2019 05:06
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SuperMechagodzilla posted:I’m beginning to think that Star Wars fans don’t actually like Star Wars. Star Wars fans love good Star Wars like The Mandalorian and some of Rogue One.
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Dec 28, 2019 05:27
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Schwarzwald posted:I remember the same thing. If I had to speculate, I'd say that the fans were primed by the 90s marketing of the EU to expect a certain kind of story from the Star Wars series. The perfect example of this was Shadows of the Empire, the '96 "multimedia project" that was designed "to explore all commercial possibilities of a full motion picture release without actually making a film." It took place between ESB and RotJ and starred Dash Rendar, Han Solo's cousin (iirc?) who was even cooler and flew the Outrider, which was like the Aluminum Falcon but even cooler. Ehh TPM got tons of hate at the time, mostly centered on Jar Jar and Anakin being BULLSHIT for BABIES. I mean, there’s video from opening day of turbo nerds coming out of the theater like they just got back from Iwo Jima. But there were plenty of defenders too, and I’d say if anything Clones got a slightly more positive reception just for having a lot more killing. And then Sith was widely considered the best of the bunch. I’d say the general nerd consensus that the prequels were definitively “bad” only congealed much later. And that now seems to be giving way to zoomers liking them semi-ironically. porfiria fucked around with this message at 05:33 on Dec 28, 2019 |
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Dec 28, 2019 05:29
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Somehow this movie manages to simultaneously give you way too much information and no information at all. Its like pulling in two different directions, one movie wants to be big mindless flashing CGI poo poo for 2 hours the other wants to be a big generational epic with sweeping emotions and theyre constantly cancelling eachother out to just create....nothing
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Dec 28, 2019 05:30
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Grandpa Palpatine posted:So why isn't this the same explanation for TLJ? It's almost like they're all full of poo poo! I haven't seen RoS because TLJ killed my interest in the ST. I am not alone. That was my only point. Not sure exactly what you're getting at here? Most people liked TFA well enough so they turned up for TLJ. The Mandalorian rules though.
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Dec 28, 2019 05:46
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The prequels miss the mark a little but at least they attempted something new with the universe. I know where the story is heading but I don't necessarily know how or when it's going to get there. Abrams meanwhile was given the creative freedom to do literally whatever he wanted with loving Star Wars and the best he could come up with was remaking ANH and ROTJ.
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Dec 28, 2019 05:51
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SuperMechagodzilla posted:Meanwhile, who gives a poo poo about Unkar Plutt? Remember him? Is he “flawless”? Do we “absolve” him? I had to look up who that was. Why are all the disney aliens weird blobs?
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Dec 28, 2019 06:05
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porfiria posted:Ehh TPM got tons of hate at the time, mostly centered on Jar Jar and Anakin being BULLSHIT for BABIES. I mean, there’s video from opening day of turbo nerds coming out of the theater like they just got back from Iwo Jima. But there were plenty of defenders too, and I’d say if anything Clones got a slightly more positive reception just for having a lot more killing. And then Sith was widely considered the best of the bunch. I’d say the general nerd consensus that the prequels were definitively “bad” only congealed much later. And that now seems to be giving way to zoomers liking them semi-ironically. That's probably fair. I'm probably giving to much weight to the opinions of my own nerd group at the time. ... So, how long has it been since the new film came out? A week?
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Dec 28, 2019 06:09
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SuperMechagodzilla posted:Why are you talking in terms of flawlessness and absolution? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FL33_8DcqnE
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Dec 28, 2019 06:14
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Hobo Clown posted:The prequels miss the mark a little but at least they attempted something new with the universe. I know where the story is heading but I don't necessarily know how or when it's going to get there. And TLJ set it up for him on a tee to do some really cool new stuff. Regression is a bitch, and JJ is in heat.
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Dec 28, 2019 06:16
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Schwarzwald posted:The absolute most baffling thing about the prequels was the manner in which popular nerdism felt positively aggrieved by them. It seems to me that that vitriol has largely faded over the years, and the broader culture seems to have slowly come to re-evaluate the films, but you do still come across old nerds still carrying the torch and pitchfork. Honestly I think it's just that modern movies have become so terrible that younger folks think they're actually good films now. Like, yea they're good films compared to the Transformers movies or Pacific Rim or whatever.
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Dec 28, 2019 06:19
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Prequel memes exist because in retrospect the prequel movies were a bizarre thing that virtually everyone in a certain age range was basically forced to watch. The universal recognizability makes them basically perfect meme material like Shrek and Bee Movie.
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Dec 28, 2019 06:30
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Grandpa Palpatine posted:Honestly I think it's just that modern movies have become so terrible that younger folks think they're actually good films now.
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Dec 28, 2019 06:34
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No one actually saw Bee Movie though. I think theres more to memeability than amount of viewers. Though I won't argue it's not a component.
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Dec 28, 2019 06:36
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Grandpa Palpatine posted:Honestly I think it's just that modern movies have become so terrible that younger folks think they're actually good films now. Pacific Rim is actually really good.
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Dec 28, 2019 06:44
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galagazombie posted:No one actually saw Bee Movie though. I think theres more to memeability than amount of viewers. Though I won't argue it's not a component. Maybe not the movie itself but there was a period where you could not escape ads for that thing. According to all known laws of aviation..
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Dec 28, 2019 06:54
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2house2fly posted:I don't like the dialogue in the prequels because it doesn't feel like things people would say to each other, and I like stuff that either sounds like things I can imagine real people saying or that is witty or cool or evocative or otherwise interesting, and there's very little dialogue like that I can remember from the prequels. Obi Wan breaking from that whole Jedi calmness thing and freaking out on Anakin with his "You were the chosen one!!" speech was pretty good. Also there's a lot of funny stuff in there like "Did you ever hear..." or "You underestimate my power" etc. The OT had goofy stuff too like Luke's absurd "Noooo!" scream and Han's "I know" which even Ford isn't suave enough to pull off. I think this is probably why I liked Snoke so much, because he was sassy as gently caress and Serkis did such a good job with him. Really wanted more scenes with that guy just insulting everyone. I bet if they stuck to the Plagueis storyline he would have shown up on Exogol, mocked Palpatine and then taken control of the machine he was hooked up to and sent him flying around the room until he force puked everywhere. For thirty minutes. Just thirty minutes of Snoke loving with Palpatine and laughing between one-liners. Would have been one of the best things Disney ever put out, right up there with 101 Dalmations. gently caress yeah.
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Dec 28, 2019 07:17
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SUNKOS posted:Han's "I know" which even Ford isn't suave enough to pull off. What? That line is perfect and fits the character to a tee.
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Dec 28, 2019 07:28
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Grandpa Palpatine posted:She was into him the whole time tho. Not sure if you're on the mark with this one. Its okay to manipulate someone in every conversation you have with them and ignore them telling you to stop when you know they're actually totally into you. Han's an rear end in a top hat in Empire. The "I know" fits entirely with it because he's the kind of rear end in a top hat who would think that saying he loves her too would give Leia the power in the relationship.
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Dec 28, 2019 07:42
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swagless homies itt
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Dec 28, 2019 07:47
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Han saying I know isn't Han being an rear end in a top hat. Throughout that movie he's trying to determine her feelings for him and she's elusive, when she declares her love for him she already knows well enough how he feels about her, she wants him to know that she loves him also. She doesn't need an "I love you too" back.
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Dec 28, 2019 07:55
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Also it’s funny and he’s a funny guy and she likes that. Of all the things that need a dissection...
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Dec 28, 2019 08:08
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Nah clearly Han is the type to read The Game and neg a woman to take away her power.
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Dec 28, 2019 08:11
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Pollyanna posted:Oh thank gently caress someone finally brought this up. I recall the dialogue in both TFA and TROS being not very good at all. TLJ was a hell of a lot better in this regard Another exchange from TFA that is abominable: Leia: Can't believe I was so foolish to think I could find Luke... and bring him home. Han: Leia. Leia: Don't do that. Han: Do what? Leia: Anything. C-3PO: Princesses. Han: I'm trying to be helpful. Leia: When did that ever help? And don't say the Death Star. It’s weird because there is this cargo culty reverence for obvious signifiers of “Star Wars” like the “Death Star” but at the same time it’s written like a dumb sitcom. Remember when fans cried that they wished Kasdan was doing the prequels? This is the kind of stuff Abrams and Kasdan came up with without Lucas.
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Dec 28, 2019 08:13
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I have to admit, I saw this again with my parents today and enjoyed it a bit more than the first time. I guess since I knew the full arc of the plot and was prepared for everything dumb, I was able to enjoy the nice shots and decent character moments more. I did notice a couple of dumb things that I didn’t last time, like how the very beginning establishes a 24 hour ticking clock and the movie then does nothing to give us any feeling of the passage of time for the rest of the movie. Also, how did Palpatine’s closet door in the Death Star wreckage (where she retrieves the wayfinder) still have power?
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Dec 28, 2019 08:15
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General Dog posted:Also, how did Palpatine’s closet door in the Death Star wreckage (where she retrieves the wayfinder) still have power? UNLIMITED POOOWERRR!
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Dec 28, 2019 08:19
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Bad movies come and go all the time, and nobody pays much attention. The prequels aren’t bad at all. They’re evil, terrifying, Satanic films whose structural perfection is matched only by their hostility. These prequels have vexed nerds for two decades now, because they - shockingly - make fun of the white characters in Star Wars. Princess Leia’s mom, just brutally dunked on for six hours straight. And all the nonhumans are eminently lovable losers. Anakin’s a jerk, but you know who’s fun? Newt Gunray.
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Dec 28, 2019 08:26
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and who's the most eminently lovable nonhuman loser of them all? that's right, smg
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Dec 28, 2019 08:36
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Jar Jar Binks is a hero.
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Dec 28, 2019 09:16
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Just Chamber posted:Lol the prequels really do break people's brains. If that line was said in the sequel trilogy it would be repeated back and forth a few times followed by a very witty pun. “I don’t like sand.” “You don’t like sand?” “Don’t like sand.” “Can you believe this? He doesn’t like sand!” And so on, for like five minutes.
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Dec 28, 2019 09:19
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This dialogue is so realistic.
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ungulateman posted:and who's the most eminently lovable nonhuman loser of them all? that's right, smg In all honesty, it’s truly JarJar Binks who deserves the crown. In the fourth (or sixth) Star Wars film, he disbelieves in The Force because he’s polytheist??? Incredible. All the white characters are like “Force this” and “Force that”, but then JarJar’s like “I actually believe in five or six smaller Forces working independent of eachother”. And you will not find anything remotely as interesting, in any of the Disney films, as the single line of dialogue that establishes this.
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Dec 28, 2019 09:19
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ruddiger posted:If that line was said in the sequel trilogy it would be repeated back and forth a few times followed by a very witty pun. Ah, the Bendis method for witty dialog
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Dec 28, 2019 09:23
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Koyaanisqatsi........but Star Wars. Make me the Star Wars Head Coach. I’ll make it happen.
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Dec 28, 2019 09:24
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