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Mormon Star Wars
Aug 13, 2005
It's a minotaur race...

ungulateman posted:

the dagger pointing to the exact spot on the wreckage isn't actually that bad, because that is how the force works, except the dagger doesn't look or feel enough like something that should be able to do that. it's a failure of imagination on jj abram's part not to make it more obviously mystical.

The point is that the dagger isn't mystical. It's a normal rear end puzzle that you don't use the force to solve, you use a robot and a tiny robotics specialist. The force contributes nothing to understanding the dagger.

The entire structure of the movie is set up so that the moments when normal humans / aliens could have achieved victory through their own efforts, that victory is thwarted by their own allied force manipulators.

The first order could have ended the whole rebellion by turning their turbolasers on Kimiji. But Kylo Ren is interested in finding an apprentice, so they don't and the heroes escape.
The special forces of the rebellion could have made it off the desert planet easily, but Rey decides that it's a better time to fight Kylo Ren.
The rebellion fleet could have achieved full victory over the Final Order fleet, except that Palpatine ends up with ultimate power because Rey just has to face him one on one and uses that power to shock the ships, etc.

Just so, the dagger is a mundane puzzle solved by people. People use it to find the next part of the treasure. Their force manipulator tricks them and goes to get the treasure, resulting in it's destruction.

Mormon Star Wars fucked around with this message at 12:25 on Dec 29, 2019

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Gargamel Gibson
Apr 24, 2014
I just rewatched the scene from TLJ where Leia "flies" and I'm a bit confused. Why is her ship standing completely still? Weren't they running away from the First Order before?

Irony Be My Shield
Jul 29, 2012

Leia would be moving along with it at the same speed, you don't instantly 'stop' when you leave a moving vehicle.

The complaints about the scene are weird to me. If you can use the force on yourself to jump then can't you equally use it on yourself to move a short distance through space. TLJ's new applications of the force were logical extensions of previous uses we've seen.

2house2fly
Nov 14, 2012

You did a super job wrapping things up! And I'm not just saying that because I have to!
I forget where exactly the missiles hit, but I think they hit the front (the prow?!) in which case Leia would have been blown out in front of the ship and be travelling at the same speed as it in the same direction, if not a little faster until the accelerating ship caught up with her. If the missiles didn't hit the front of the ship then Rian Johnson is a stupid hack

Hobo Clown
Oct 16, 2012

Here it is, Baby.
Your killer track.




The Space Leia scene is there so it wouldn't seem strange when you learn Palpatine did the same thing by force flying down the tube away from the Death Star and through the red portal thing and onto Sith Planet.

We're going to find out he did it again easily when he shows up again in Episode 10.

dex_sda
Oct 11, 2012


2house2fly posted:

The sith dagger is literally just a post it note made of metal!!!!!!

It probably was used in the climactic scene in earlier cuts. You know, Rey uses it to stab Palpy, turns out that's been the trap and it's the Masgical Essence Daggersith or some poo poo.

Instead, a thing is introduced, and then brought back up to remind you, and not used at all. Turning it into a pointless post-it.

dex_sda
Oct 11, 2012


General Dog posted:

I think just a normal human can survive in space for 30 seconds or so. It’s not insta-death to the level that it’s normally portrayed in movies.

You can argue that the scene looks silly, but by the standards of Star Wars and force users, it doesn’t strike me as particularly implausible.

If you exhale to avoid your lungs getting in trouble because of a difference in pressure, you can last as long as there is enough oxygen in your brain in the vacuum of space. There is no air so you don't cool down. Humans can survive zero pressure as far as the body goes. Since you can't have too much air in the lungs, it probably is 20 seconds until passing out and another 15 before death

The saliva and other fluids will instantly boil and damage your superficial tissues, and you might have bends-like symptoms, and be disoriented from the lack of pressure for a while. But it's a survivable thing.

Mr Interweb
Aug 25, 2004

i feel like this movie doesn't get nearly as much grief as it should for some of the worst loving writing in the series. people have already mentioned the 'THEY CAN FLY NOW" lines, which are awful, but there's much much worse. at least you could argue the previous line was just supposed to be a throwaway joke, but recall the scene with C3P0 deciding to wipe his memory so that the crew can get the translations on the magic dagger. poe asks him "what are you doing, 3PO?" and 3P0 says "taking one last look at my friends" (or something to that effect). the problem here is that poe asks him that question when 3P0 was just standing silent for like literally 2 seconds.yet poe is asking him in a way as if 3P0 was attempting to do the gangham style dance or something. there is no loving reason for poe to ask 3PO a question like that because 3P0 wasn't doing anything out of the ordinary! he was just standing there silently for 2 seconds! literally the only reason for this exchange to exist was that it gives 3P0 an excuse to say that emotional sounding, tear jerking line. and all of it turned out to be completely loving worthless because nobody seemed that bothered by 3P0 losing his memory and no one seemed to particularly care when he got his memories back. poe, finn and rey are some of the shittiest friends ever.


SUNKOS posted:

I think the main thing that dragged TLJ down is the whole casino planet thing. The scenes you mentioned were good and I get what they were going after with the casino planet but the whole thing still feels like a huge stain on the film that sucked up screen time that could have been better used elsewhere, like making the space chase less dull so that Holdo's sacrifice is less "Okay that was awesome but thank gently caress that poo poo's over" to maybe taking some cues from Fury Road about how to keep a chase exciting. I actually thought Solo was a fun movie with my only gripe being that Han was miscast, but that sequence warping through space with that giant monster in there while a Destroyer chases them, it was fairly short if I remember but a real spectacle. Meanwhile in TLJ it felt like it dragged forever which is the last thing a chase should feel like, and combined with the casino planet it made the movie feel like a slog, I think.

yeah, the casino part is the absolute worst part of the film. i legit think i would bump it up two or 3 points if they either got rid of it entirely, or handled it in a less stupid way than they did.

i totally dig the idea of bringing in the role of war profiteers into the mix, but like with most ideas, the movie does absolutely nothing with it.

on top of this two other problems with the casino portion is 1) that, rey and finn basically leave this slow speed chase they're currently in, to basically go on this little adventure, all within the span of 18 HOURS. and 2) it has one of the worst contrivances in the entire series where they're looking for this brilliant code breaker who is super rare, miss their chance to meet him, get arrested and COINCIDENTALLY wind up in the same loving cell as this other dude who just also HAPPENS to be a genius code breaker! ROS took this issue and somehow multiplied it by ten.

Onmi posted:

A good question, for another time

You seem to be a misunderstanding. It's not that the ships were built on Exagol. It's that they were already there, since RotJ.

wait, WHAT? that can't be the case, because then that would mean these new star destroyers had planet destroying capabilities for the past 30 years?

Gargamel Gibson
Apr 24, 2014

Irony Be My Shield posted:

Leia would be moving along with it at the same speed, you don't instantly 'stop' when you leave a moving vehicle.

When you step out of a moving car you don't keep floating forward next to it at the same speed either. Sure, you don't stop. Byt you definitely get left behind.

Leia is floating "above" the ship with a bunch of debris when she wakes up and does her Force thing. So I guess the ship wasn't moving? Weird.

2house2fly
Nov 14, 2012

You did a super job wrapping things up! And I'm not just saying that because I have to!
If you jump out of a moving car the air resistance pushes you back and gravity pulls you down, the same things arent going to be factors in space

Mooey Cow
Jan 27, 2018

by Jeffrey of YOSPOS
Pillbug

2house2fly posted:

If you jump out of a moving car the air resistance pushes you back and gravity pulls you down, the same things arent going to be factors in space

But apparently the space resistance is going to slow down all the debris so it kinda just hangs around outside the ship, even though the vacuum of space is what sucked Leia out in the first place :thunk:

Dr Kool-AIDS
Mar 26, 2004

2house2fly posted:

If you jump out of a moving car the air resistance pushes you back and gravity pulls you down, the same things arent going to be factors in space

There wouldn't be anything to stop the momentum from the explosive decompression either, so she would have been continually moving away from the ship either way.

Mr Interweb
Aug 25, 2004


this is a pretty apt comparison

good god did that cartoon age terribly

2house2fly
Nov 14, 2012

You did a super job wrapping things up! And I'm not just saying that because I have to!

Mooey Cow posted:

But apparently the space resistance is going to slow down all the debris so it kinda just hangs around outside the ship, even though the vacuum of space is what sucked Leia out in the first place :thunk:

She wasn't sucked out by the vacuum of space, she was pushed out by air escaping through the hole in the hull :smuggo:

Dishwasher
Dec 5, 2006

Congratulations on not getting fit in 2011!
I don't mind Leia flying when Rey is basically flying around as well. Look at how she floated to the TIE fighter from the SD deck. It's just an interesting way to introduce a new powerset, but no one talks about Rey doing it because she looks cool as poo poo. :allears:

It'd be way dumber if no one else did it afterwards.

Small Strange Bird
Sep 22, 2006

Merci, chaton!

2house2fly posted:

She wasn't sucked out by the vacuum of space, she was pushed out by air escaping through the hole in the hull :smuggo:
Correction, sir. That's blown out.

Dishwasher
Dec 5, 2006

Congratulations on not getting fit in 2011!
The dagger puzzle was dumb as poo poo because she didn't have to do anything. Even Indiana Jones had to solve the puzzle with the sunlight. She just walked up, pressed a button, and just held it to the wreckage. Like, what if the wreckage sank? What if they approached it from the other side? Its so stupid.

"Welp, I guess its a dead end. :saddowns:"

pospysyl
Nov 10, 2012



When Rey holds the Sith dagger she intones, "Terrible things have been done with this knife", even though it looks like a Happy Meal toy.

Ghost Leviathan
Mar 2, 2017

Exploration is ill-advised.
It's def been in Palpatine's rear end

ONE YEAR LATER
Apr 13, 2004

Fry old buddy, it's me, Bender!
Oven Wrangler

pospysyl posted:

When Rey holds the Sith dagger she intones, "Terrible things have been done with this knife", even though it looks like a Happy Meal toy.

She's also been carrying around a lightsaber that was used to kill children but didn't seem to feel much from that.

Onmi
Jul 12, 2013

If someone says it one more time I'm having Florina show up as a corpse. I'm not even kidding, I was pissed off with people doing that shit back in 2010, and I'm not dealing with it now in 2016.
Rey has the Sith Dagger because it was the tool used to kill her parents and it's poetic and poo poo.


Mr Interweb posted:

wait, WHAT? that can't be the case, because then that would mean these new star destroyers had planet destroying capabilities for the past 30 years?

Yes, yes they did. But don't worry they don't actually use Death Star tech, that'd be ridiculous.

No, they're powered by Sheev himself. The whole fleet all at once, it runs on Sheev Force.

Ghost Leviathan
Mar 2, 2017

Exploration is ill-advised.
It would be no less silly and a lot more awesome if he flat out had the Star Destroyers combine into a giant robot.

Timeless Appeal
May 28, 2006

Irony Be My Shield posted:

Leia would be moving along with it at the same speed, you don't instantly 'stop' when you leave a moving vehicle.

The complaints about the scene are weird to me. If you can use the force on yourself to jump then can't you equally use it on yourself to move a short distance through space. TLJ's new applications of the force were logical extensions of previous uses we've seen.
I think TLJ is a lot better when you treat is a live-action Miyazaki movie. Leia is totally cast as one of Miyazaki's witches just like Luke is cast as one of his gruff old men. The casino scene is copping as much from Spirited Away as it is from the Cantina scene. Holdo in particular feels like a Miyazaki as gently caress.

Hobo Clown
Oct 16, 2012

Here it is, Baby.
Your killer track.




Didn't they not even need the thing the dagger pointed them to because they already had the shy little Abrams droid? It was just an excuse to go to the old Death Star for fan service-y reasons.

Pollyanna
Mar 5, 2005

Milk's on them.


Hobo Clown posted:

Didn't they not even need the thing the dagger pointed them to because they already had the shy little Abrams droid? It was just an excuse to go to the old Death Star for fan service-y reasons.

Yep, they reveal D-O knows how to get there and then they follow Rey there anyway. Completely pointless.

2house2fly
Nov 14, 2012

You did a super job wrapping things up! And I'm not just saying that because I have to!
The robot knows how to get there but they need a guide through the big red cloud full of debris around Exogol, and Rey's transmissions as she navigates it serve as that guide. Or something? Did they already know where Exogol was?

Mooey Cow
Jan 27, 2018

by Jeffrey of YOSPOS
Pillbug

Dishwasher posted:

It'd be way dumber if no one else did it afterwards.

If people on the internet start pointing out all kinds of inconvenient situations Jedi could have just floated away from, you can just have a character say that the ability to fly slowly was one two shots in a million. That's good and satisfying writing.

Mandrel
Sep 24, 2006

honestly one of the only scenes I don’t really have a problem with in TLJ is the Mary poppins flying. though she should’ve just died there if the movie had any balls or common sense

still it was nice to see Leia get to use the force in a cool way at least once after all those years and the weird surrealness of how it looked worked for me at least visually

Edit: it’s honestly best in general not to think too hard about force powers in Star Wars or you start asking questions about why all these Jedi are chasing down non Force users on foot or fighting them 1v1 in like every episode of TCW instead of just like, levitating them with the Force or Force pulling them or whatever.

how many times are you guys gonna let Cad Bane just run away while you shake your fist. it’s huge Magneto and the wooden gun energy

Mandrel fucked around with this message at 17:57 on Dec 29, 2019

YaketySass
Jan 15, 2019

Blind Idiot Dog
Leia should have spent the entire movie floating and vibrating to the rhythm of the Force

Nissin Cup Nudist
Sep 3, 2011

Sleep with one eye open

We're off to Gritty Gritty land




I thought the dagger was gonna be a physical key to tomb to open the vault, which is why they still needed it


nope

Ghost Leviathan
Mar 2, 2017

Exploration is ill-advised.

YaketySass posted:

Leia should have spent the entire movie floating and vibrating to the rhythm of the Force

By that you mean incredibly high?

Pollyanna
Mar 5, 2005

Milk's on them.


The Force was never supposed to be magic and the series gets monumentally worse if you think of it/treat it as magic.

2house2fly
Nov 14, 2012

You did a super job wrapping things up! And I'm not just saying that because I have to!
The coolest mindbreaking Jedi thing is: why do they have lightsaber fights? They have mind powers! They can just use their mind powers to yank the lightsaber out of their opponent's hands, or like if you see your opponent at the opposite end of a sports stadium, just launch your lightsaber at them and use your mind powers to make them fight your disembodied lightsaber. Or you can do the same thing if you're up close, and so can they, leading to an insane situation where you're both standing 50 feet apart with your disembodied lightsabers in the middle frantically parrying each other

Just Chamber
Feb 10, 2014

WE MUST RETURN TO THE DANCE! THE NIGHT IS OURS!

Yea the sequels continuing the trend of the prequels by upping the power level of the force is a big mistake imo. For films that were supposed to be leaning more towards the OT it was weird they decided to treat the force users like they were marvel super heroes.

General Dog
Apr 26, 2008

Everybody's working for the weekend
So Poochie found Rey’s parents on Jakku and took them into custody but was unable to find Rey even though she was close enough to watch him take off? Was Unkar Plut too clueless to figure out what was going on, or was he loyal enough to lie to Poochie about Rey’s whereabouts? If it was the latter, why was he so lovely to her for the next decade plus?

ruddiger
Jun 3, 2004

My 8 year old cousin fell asleep an hour into ROS. He was pretty hyped going into it but knocked out somewhere in the middle.

He woke up in time to see the emperor melt, so he got some good nightmare fuel out of it at least.

Space Panda
Nov 15, 2018

by Jeffrey of YOSPOS
Honestly cant wait until 20 years go by and the fix all the problems and plot holes with this trilogy.

Happened with the OT and will happen with this ST

General Dog
Apr 26, 2008

Everybody's working for the weekend
What are the big plot holes for the OT that require EU material to close?

Space Panda
Nov 15, 2018

by Jeffrey of YOSPOS
rebel weapons not working on AT-ATs (should have known this at that point in war). Its OT's "They fly now"
;

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euphronius
Feb 18, 2009

The Death Star scenes at least looked awesome

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