|
teagone posted:Ben's soul was split. If you treat Kylo Ren and Ben Solo as two warring identities, then I think thematically it works. I think that's a real cop out- Kylo Ren and Ben Solo are the same guy. Darth Vader and Anakin Skywalker are the same guy. Both are capable of compassion and contrition, and both are capable of murdering their loved ones or trillions of people with the press of a button.
|
#
?
Dec 31, 2019 22:55
|
|
|
|
| # ? Apr 24, 2024 12:21 |
|
|
https://twitter.com/JohnBoyega/status/1212100585232719874 John Boyega here trying his damnedest to outsass Oscar Isaac
|
|
#
?
Dec 31, 2019 22:55
|
|
|
You love to see it
|
|
#
?
Dec 31, 2019 22:58
|
|
|
I love that nobody gives a gently caress anymore and are openly showing their disdain.
|
|
#
?
Dec 31, 2019 23:09
|
|
|
El Burbo posted:You love to see it Not like this though:   General Dog posted:I think that's a real cop out- Kylo Ren and Ben Solo are the same guy. Darth Vader and Anakin Skywalker are the same guy. Both are capable of compassion and contrition, and both are capable of murdering their loved ones or trillions of people with the press of a button. I don't think it's a cop out, but I also never meant to imply that they are different people or separate characters. Of course they're same guy. I was more so referring to how Ben is thematically broken, i.e., the act of killing of his father "split his soul to the bone" as Snoke said. I'm ok with Ben realizing the errors of his ways through the memory of his loving father now that he has effectively "killed" Kylo Ren. It's not literal, but like I said, I think on a thematic level it works just fine.
|
|
#
?
Dec 31, 2019 23:12
|
|
|
It sucks that he had no dialogue after Rey healed him. He did this weird gesture right before killing the knights that I later realised was the same shrug Han did in ROTJ when he got the imperials to open the bunker door. It would have been neat to give him some Han-esque dialogue as well, like "see you around kid"
|
|
#
?
Dec 31, 2019 23:19
|
|
|
2house2fly posted:It sucks that he had no dialogue after Rey healed him. He did this weird gesture right before killing the knights that I later realised was the same shrug Han did in ROTJ when he got the imperials to open the bunker door. It would have been neat to give him some Han-esque dialogue as well, like "see you around kid" In what was I assume supposed to be a comedic beat, Ben says "Ow" after jumping across a gap and hitting a wall on his way to help Rey during the Exegol stuff at the end. Does that count?
|
|
#
?
Dec 31, 2019 23:22
|
|
|
General Dog posted:I think that's a real cop out- Kylo Ren and Ben Solo are the same guy. Darth Vader and Anakin Skywalker are the same guy. Both are capable of compassion and contrition, and both are capable of murdering their loved ones or trillions of people with the press of a button. Yeah, that's maybe the biggest cop-out of The Rise of Skywalker. Obi-Wan was wrong, formerly - putting on a black helmet doesn't make anyone a different person; it's just that the truth, that it was Anakin himself who betrayed the Jedi and served the Empire, was too painful for him to bear. This latest one disagrees: Sheev is so persuasive that it amounts to mind control, absolving his apprentices of the evil they do in his name. If the dude that kissed Rey is not the same dude as the dude that stabbed Han, then the dude that heroically tossed an old man down an elevator shaft is not the same dude as the dude that chopped Obi-Wan in half. Thus, far from depicting the redemption of Ben Solo, The Rise of Skywalker posits that such redemption is impossible. Nobody ever switches to the blue team from the red team - because nobody ever actually switches to the red team, they only get subsumed by an independent persona who's already on the red team. Even Hux is still framed as a villain. This also kind of assassinates the Kylo Ren character as introduced in The Force Awakens. Why did he make the conscious ethical decision to kill his father, specifically for the reason of being his father, even though he found it difficult to do? Oh, it's because a necromancer got him remotely high on evil magic.
|
|
#
?
Dec 31, 2019 23:23
|
|
|
He literally states as such in TLJ too. He didn't hate his father. He loved him. He was making the ultimate sacrifice for the Dark Side. He thought if he did it he'd be free of conflict and able to be his own person.
|
|
#
?
Dec 31, 2019 23:33
|
|
|
Kylo got wololo'ed.
|
|
#
?
Dec 31, 2019 23:34
|
|
|
Lol that Palpatine is literally Bendyman, sticking a finger up Ben Solo's butt and telling him to KILL YOU'RE FAMIL
|
|
#
?
Dec 31, 2019 23:35
|
|
|
Bongo Bill posted:If the dude that kissed Rey is not the same dude as the dude that stabbed Han, then the dude that heroically tossed an old man down an elevator shaft is not the same dude as the dude that chopped Obi-Wan in half. Thus, far from depicting the redemption of Ben Solo, The Rise of Skywalker posits that such redemption is impossible. Nobody ever switches to the blue team from the red team - because nobody ever actually switches to the red team, they only get subsumed by an independent persona who's already on the red team. Even Hux is still framed as a villain. You're taking the whole "warring identities" thing I said a bit too literally here I think. I only meant it insofar as "Kylo Ren" (or Darth Vader) representing an aspect of the character that's tearing them apart. [edit] Eimi posted:He literally states as such in TLJ too. He didn't hate his father. He loved him. He was making the ultimate sacrifice for the Dark Side. He thought if he did it he'd be free of conflict and able to be his own person. This is ultimately what I was going to lead with. Ben clearly still loved his father, but committed parricide in the name of the Dark Side because of power or whatever. It's much more than the binary "evil guy turns good" when Ben remembers that even when "Kylo Ren" had consumed his being, his father still loved him. Ben opening up and finally getting a chance to understand and feel the shared sentiment sealing his return to the light now that Kylo Ren is "dead" doesn't seem like a cop out in any way, imo. teagone fucked around with this message at 23:50 on Dec 31, 2019 |
|
#
?
Dec 31, 2019 23:38
|
|
|
Yeah, "they're two different people" is a stretch even for this movie. But it does still present Palpatine as being the one to blame for Kylo Ren. Specifically, Ben was obsessed with the Dark Side after touching Darth Vader's mask. Sheev claims that he was every voice he heard - presumably, this means that Sheev sent that vision. Does that mean he also sent the vision that Rey had when she touched Anakin's lightsaber? For that matter, does that mean he sent Anakin his visions of Padme's death? And what about Luke's vision of Han and Leia being tortured? Or Luke's vision of the evils Ben would be party to? How deep does this go? Was it a Sith Lord that sent the prophecy of the Chosen One? Obviously, he would need to be All The Sith in order to credibly wield that kind of power, regardless of which of those visions were sent via Sith Walkie-Talkie. Does that mean that he didn't betray Darth Plagueis, but instead they did that whole ritual thing together?
|
|
#
?
Dec 31, 2019 23:41
|
|
|
But to be fair, the first movie of the trilogy established that to be the case. They had that whole scene with him talking to his grandfather's helmet, as well as that aforementioned thing about him killing Han to try and overcome the pull of the light. Perhaps they should've had a better explanation for why he felt it was important to stay on Team Evil, but it isn't like the notion that he was being influenced externally came out of nowhere. I don't get why people felt it was just gonna be this tale of an evil guy being evil and getting eviler, his conflict was always central to his character in a way that was different to Anakin's.Bongo Bill posted:Yeah, "they're two different people" is a stretch even for this movie. But it does still present Palpatine as being the one to blame for Kylo Ren. Luke's vision of Han was sent by a Sith, it's an explicit plot point in that movie. That's why Han has that line where he mentions they didn't even ask him questions, it was specifically to summon Luke. Also, Palpatine may have sent the vision to Anakin as well, later in the movie he speaks to him telepathically about that exact topic, even though he's never told explicitly why Anakin was obsessed with immortality. And the situation with the lightsaber and helmet kind of needed an explanation, Luke touched them and didn't get any psychic visions even though they belonged to his own father. The Force might be magic, but the fact that these inanimate objects were communicating with specific people was always weird and unprecedented in Star Wars, it required an explanation. Beeez fucked around with this message at 23:59 on Dec 31, 2019 |
|
#
?
Dec 31, 2019 23:50
|
|
|
TheGreatEvilKing posted:I'm not sure I buy this. seems like everybody involved is getting on message on pointing the finger at KK at this point. she gone
|
|
#
?
Dec 31, 2019 23:51
|
|
|
IDK man, if I wanted to engage with media where every antagonist was really a protagonist who had been brainwashed/manipulated/tricked into being evil when they *~didnt really feel that way~* then I'd go back to playing Blizzard games. Vader, Ren, etc can't just lay everything on Palpatine, that's so dumb it undermines the entirety of all 9 main movies. I agree with both Bongo Bill and teagone that the thematic aspects of Ben's character conflict were in line with what Star Wars generally does but it was definitely underdeveloped and only work at all because Driver was in that role.
|
|
#
?
Dec 31, 2019 23:54
|
|
|
Beeez posted:But to be fair, the first movie of the trilogy established that to be the case. They had that whole scene with him talking to his grandfather's helmet, as well as that aforementioned thing about him killing Han to try and overcome the pull of the light. Perhaps they should've had a better explanation for why he felt it was important to stay on Team Evil, but it isn't like the notion that he was being influenced externally came out of nowhere. I don't get why people felt it was just gonna be this tale of an evil guy being evil and getting eviler, his conflict was always central to his character in a way that was different to Anakin's. I never read Kylo that way, I thought he was someone struggling with his legacy, with a percevied inner weakness he was trying to expunge to have power like his grandfather, second in command to the emperor. He perceived empathy and love as his weaknesses. Didn't need an external actor. Then that contrasts with Rey, who has no people and yearns for love and belonging. It was like a yin-yang thing. And the dark side is like a faustian bargain, it tempts you with power, it doesn't just hypnotize you into wearing black and killing your family. At least it used to work like that But whatever honestly, this is a movie where the big bad, unlike at every other point, doesn't want to rule the galaxy so much as obliterate it for no reason. The evil has gone from a fascist/imperialist/colonialist one to a captain planet one. It's not even evil in a meaningful thematic sense anymore, just GRIMDARK BADNESS 
|
|
#
?
Jan 1, 2020 00:01
|
|
|
Mat Cauthon posted:I agree with both Bongo Bill and teagone that the thematic aspects of Ben's character conflict were in line with what Star Wars generally does but it was definitely underdeveloped and only work at all because Driver was in that role. Yeah, 100% agreed wrt Adam Driver making it all work. He completely sells his "turn" with hardly any dialogue. The strength of his physical and facial acting in TROS is insane.
|
|
#
?
Jan 1, 2020 00:04
|
|
|
Mat Cauthon posted:IDK man, if I wanted to engage with media where every antagonist was really a protagonist who had been brainwashed/manipulated/tricked into being evil when they *~didnt really feel that way~* then I'd go back to playing Blizzard games. Vader, Ren, etc can't just lay everything on Palpatine, that's so dumb it undermines the entirety of all 9 main movies. I don't think it's so much brainwashing as, in Ben's case, being sent revelations of evil that he was convinced by. And Anakin was even less brainwashed, its clearly his own sense of resignation and addiction to evil that keep him on Team Sith for so long. Ben's situation definitely was undeveloped though, because we still don't know why he even felt it was something to which he needed to commit himself. Anakin had been alienated by the institutions the Sith were trying to destroy, and thought he might save his wife. After Mustafar, he has a sense of resignation. But in Ben's case we never learn why he believes committing himself to evil was more important than his parents. Edit: To me, if Kylo was only doing it out of personal greed, he wouldn't need to be constantly reminding himself to stay evil, and he wouldn't talk about "finishing what (his grandfather) started." If he simply had a lust for power that was so strong it led him to do all that, I don't think he'd be so conflicted. Beeez fucked around with this message at 00:13 on Jan 1, 2020 |
|
#
?
Jan 1, 2020 00:08
|
|
|
Yeah Kylo’s lack of any discernible agenda beyond “he has to do bad things to level up, in pursuit of leveling up more” is a major writing failure for a character who we’re supposed to accept as nuanced.
|
|
#
?
Jan 1, 2020 01:05
|
|
|
The more I think about it the more I’m pissed that Finn and Poe didn’t get together. They deserve nice things and it’d be cool to have a gay relationship just sort of “exist” in the same way that hetero relationships do all the goddamn time — like, not as the main focus of the film, just as part of the world and the characters’ story.
|
|
#
?
Jan 1, 2020 01:43
|
|
|
I don’t mind Reylo too much. Shipping itself has always irked me as a stupid way to enjoy media but ah well. Enemies to lovers is a classic dynamic, good poo poo, but yeesh Reylos on Twitter seem to have internalized their desire to see thing happen in movie to a point where Episode 9 answering them with “Yes and No!” Has broke some brains, and it’s pretty fun to see Boyega stirring the pot in that regard. Edit: FinnPoe was the only hookup I cared about but Disney gonna Disney.
|
|
#
?
Jan 1, 2020 01:44
|
|
|
Mind control is a cop out bad writers use when they can't actually write someone convincing another person that they're right, hth
|
|
#
?
Jan 1, 2020 01:48
|
|
|
As it is Rey should’ve also died and brought balance to the Force that way, which would actually leave interesting possibilities for future works. How would Force-sensitives navigate the world without mentors, just at most Force ghosts who they don’t know? That’s fertile ground in my opinion, but we can’t have that now.
|
|
#
?
Jan 1, 2020 01:49
|
|
|
people who base their entire identities on whether or not two fictional characters in a children's franchise gently caress need to stop consuming media for a little while
|
|
#
?
Jan 1, 2020 01:57
|
|
|
TheGreatEvilKing posted:I'm not sure I buy this. Not an original thought, but reading this interview reminds me - my favorite part of the "well with Snoke dead we needed to come up with some other big bad" argument is that it just assumes Kylo Ren must get redeemed in this movie. It goes completely unchallenged in that article. It's like the Jazzhands comic from Dominic Deegan. "Well of course he had to rape her, they were going to kill them both otherwise!" Sure, but you wrote the ultimatum, you could just...not do that. General Dog posted:Yeah Kylo’s lack of any discernible agenda beyond “he has to do bad things to level up, in pursuit of leveling up more” is a major writing failure for a character who we’re supposed to accept as nuanced. Maybe they had just played Devil May Cry and thought "yeah that's a cool villain"
|
|
#
?
Jan 1, 2020 02:04
|
|
|
Beeez posted:I don't think it's so much brainwashing as, in Ben's case, being sent revelations of evil that he was convinced by. And Anakin was even less brainwashed, its clearly his own sense of resignation and addiction to evil that keep him on Team Sith for so long. Ben's situation definitely was undeveloped though, because we still don't know why he even felt it was something to which he needed to commit himself. Anakin had been alienated by the institutions the Sith were trying to destroy, and thought he might save his wife. After Mustafar, he has a sense of resignation. But in Ben's case we never learn why he believes committing himself to evil was more important than his parents. Anakin's whole reason for "going dark" was to get the power he needed to save Padme from what he believed would be her imminent death. And she died anyway. And it's obvious in hindsight that if Anakin had not turned to the Dark Side and had helped the Jedi destroy Palpatine, Padme wouldn't have been on the run and died as she did. Anakin didn't become Darth Vader to deny the "pull of the Light." He did it to sever himself from the failure and fuckup that was Anakin Skywalker. Figure in part, being Darth Vader, serving Palpatine, is a self-administered punishment for those gently caress-ups. When he learns that Luke is his son, he sees a path to a kind of redemption, with father and son ruling the galaxy together after destroying the Emperor. Luke refuses both temptations and cries to his father for help, which is the final impetus for Anakin to turn on the Emperor. With Ben/Kylo, recall that the essential point of Anakin was that he would be the being that brought "Balance to the Force." Anakin was "The Chosen One." Let's go to the MCU for a second and think about little Morgan Stark. He dad, Tony Stark, saved the entire loving universe. Think about growing up with that to live up to. His ghost and shadow will probably darken her life until her death. With Ben Solo, it's kind of worse. Stark is at least dead. Morgan gets sympathy. Ben Solo has to live with roguish Hero-of-the-Rebellion General Han Solo as his father. Princess Heroine of the Rebellion Leia Organa Solo is his mother. His uncle is Heir to the Jedi Master Luke Skywalker. They're all still there, watching, expecting, judging. And Ben Solo has the Force. So he gets to sense people's feelings and opinions of him. The pressure of living up to all those hopes and expectations must of been utterly crushing, Snoke showing him a path to meeting them was as much a relief as a temptation. Finally, by mastering the Dark Side , Ben Solo/Kylo Ren could finally be the Somebody the rest of the universe clearly wanted him to be.
|
|
#
?
Jan 1, 2020 02:11
|
|
|
The Star Tours ride has a bit where you almost collide with a fuel truck, therefore indicating the existence of space ship fuel in Starwarsland and this refutes the dumbest criticism of a dumb movie.
|
|
#
?
Jan 1, 2020 02:15
|
|
|
Robotnik Nudes posted:I don’t mind Reylo too much. Shipping itself has always irked me as a stupid way to enjoy media but ah well. Enemies to lovers is a classic dynamic, good poo poo, but yeesh Reylos on Twitter seem to have internalized their desire to see thing happen in movie to a point where Episode 9 answering them with “Yes and No!” Has broke some brains, and it’s pretty fun to see Boyega stirring the pot in that regard. It's one thing to rib fandoms like "Reylos" because, yeah, their excessiveness can be a bit LOL. Teasing someone's opinions can be done in good fun, but all it feels like Boyega's done is incite more toxicity, giving haters more reason to sling hate towards people liking things. That's no fun. I'm not against Boyega lashing out, and gently caress anyone slinging racist sentiments his way, but with someone with as much influence as Boyega has, I would've expected him to take the high road instead of stooping to the lower rungs of fandom toxicity. Resorting to name calling and making crude sex jokes is lame af and a bad look. Maybe he was drunk tweeting. [edit] He should've taken after Oscar Isaac and made the implication that he was calling out Disney. Because that's the real problem. teagone fucked around with this message at 02:35 on Jan 1, 2020 |
|
#
?
Jan 1, 2020 02:32
|
|
|
Fuel has already existed in star wars anyway since Obi-Wan asks for a refuel on Utapau
|
|
#
?
Jan 1, 2020 02:37
|
|
|
I can't help but wonder if this dunking on the movie from inside the house is Disney cutting their losses and running.
|
|
#
?
Jan 1, 2020 02:48
|
|
|
I wouldn't put it past Iger to manufacture the Terrio interview as some sort of hit piece to kicks things off, lmao.
|
|
#
?
Jan 1, 2020 02:50
|
|
|
PT6A posted:As it is Rey should’ve also died and brought balance to the Force that way, which would actually leave interesting possibilities for future works. How would Force-sensitives navigate the world without mentors, just at most Force ghosts who they don’t know? That’s fertile ground in my opinion, but we can’t have that now. Honestly something I could've seen working as a story, even if this veers WAY off into fan fiction, is that the Force is awakening, but it's too strong and it's doing a Final Impact turn everyone into Force juice kind of story. Like just have everyone get insane Force powers but show that it's too much like how Rey accidentally lightnings that transport. Play into the yin and yang aspect of Kylo and Rey's relationship and the ending is them sealing themselves away to drain away the Force power to save the whole universe. Maybe at the end reveal that they aren't the first force dyad who had to make that choice. I dunno, that's a super fairy tale ending and I think it'd fit. And it lets me have my filthy Reylo without having to deal with them running around making kids.
|
|
#
?
Jan 1, 2020 02:59
|
|
|
lmao at Boyega being expected to take The High Road
|
|
#
?
Jan 1, 2020 03:11
|
|
|
teagone posted:[edit] He should've taken after Oscar Isaac and made the implication that he was calling out Disney. Because that's the real problem. I don't think them not going a certain way with "shipping" stuff is the problem with Disney. There's a lot of problems with how they've handled it, but that's really not one of them.
|
|
#
?
Jan 1, 2020 03:12
|
|
|
mycot posted:I can't help but wonder if this dunking on the movie from inside the house is Disney cutting their losses and running. After Solo's production and now this one's uh divisive reception and even Kennedy/Iger giving conflicting messages about whether there'll even be trilogies of movies again or just individual whatever stuff? Between the success of Mandalorian and Clone Wars getting a new season it wouldn't surprise me if Star Wars becomes a TV show only thing for a while now.
|
|
#
?
Jan 1, 2020 03:14
|
|
|
Mandrel posted:lmao at Boyega being expected to take The High Road Agreed, everyone was lol'in about Oscar Isaac's various statements and attitude during the promo stuff, but no, Boyega didn't compain about Star Wars IN THE RIGHT WAY and should reign it in...hmmm...
|
|
#
?
Jan 1, 2020 03:15
|
|
|
Neo Rasa posted:
That’s for best. I remember when they came out with the “we’re going to have a Star Wars movie every year” back when TFA was being produced and that was a crazy decision.
|
|
#
?
Jan 1, 2020 03:19
|
|
|
Mandrel posted:lmao at Boyega being expected to take The High Road You're right. I was reminded that he implied Kelly Marie Tran was "weak" when she closed all her social media accounts after being bullied and harassed by fandoms. I don't blame Boyega for being bitter about how he was treated online and how his character was ultimately handled in the ST movies, but actively instigating more toxicity by directing that anger towards fans seems petty imo. But he can do whatever the hell he wants, I'm just throwing in my two cents on the matter. [edit] To Boyega's credit though, he did apologize for his "weak minded" comment. Neo Rasa posted:Agreed, everyone was lol'in about Oscar Isaac's various statements and attitude during the promo stuff, but no, Boyega didn't compain about Star Wars IN THE RIGHT WAY and should reign it in...hmmm... Isaac was calling out a megacorporation's fraudness. Boyega was doing something different when he went out his way to engage with fan discourse, fueled by negativity. teagone fucked around with this message at 03:28 on Jan 1, 2020 |
|
#
?
Jan 1, 2020 03:23
|
|
|
|
| # ? Apr 24, 2024 12:21 |
|
|
Miching Mallecho posted:That’s for best. I remember when they came out with the “we’re going to have a Star Wars movie every year” back when TFA was being produced and that was a crazy decision. I'm sure it sounded great in the board room but for real what were they even thinking? I mean yeah sure easy $$$ of course that's what they were thinking but still, like, they really thought they were just going to poo poo these out and people would love them unconditionally? I mean maybe they'll keep doing movies but just make Kevin Feige the main charge.
|
|
#
?
Jan 1, 2020 03:23
|
|