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The ridiculousness of FF7 revealing that everyone who is hyper-capable is mostly that way because of absurd delusions is only surpassed by the depressing truth that in real life it’s the exact same way. I never figured Tifa was brain tricking the hot girl named Cloud but I’m also not surprised. Everyone fucks with his tiny, malleable brain any chance they get.
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Jan 3, 2020 07:13
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SyntheticPolygon posted:And she never really tries to actually talk to him about the absurd inconsistencies in his stories and actions even as it becomes increasingly clear that there is something really worrying going on with him. She’s just happy to have him around and doesn’t want him to disappear by confronting him about how he’s pretty clearly hosed up. Keep in mind she also thinks she's gone crazy. Since Cloud starts perfectly recalling things like Nibelheim when Tifa was there and as far as she knew he wasn't
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Jan 3, 2020 07:52
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Yeah it rules.
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Jan 3, 2020 08:01
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Chillgamesh posted:Except it's Jenova and not Sephiroth that did that stabbing so the sword is actually part of Jenova's biomass, which they all get absorbed into, so you'd have to fight a screaming mutated amalgam of your four friends who endlessly screech WHY COULDN'T YOU SAVE US CLOUD in discordant chorus Okay, but who's Black Getter in this scenario? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bkc6E47KBNI
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Jan 3, 2020 08:09
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jokes posted:Why didn’t Cloud ever like like Tifa? Is it because she didn’t pull brain tricks on him like Aeristh? They bang before going into the Northern Crater. "There are ways other than words to show someone you like them." NikkolasKing posted:And of course this stuff wasn't as exaggerated in older FF games or Xenosaga or other JRPG's I played. Xenosaga instead had everyone saying "Besides" every other word. Chillgamesh posted:Except it's Jenova and not Sephiroth that did that stabbing so the sword is actually part of Jenova's biomass, which they all get absorbed into, so you'd have to fight a screaming mutated amalgam of your four friends who endlessly screech WHY COULDN'T YOU SAVE US CLOUD in discordant chorus So we're going for the Persona 2 Great Father boss fight.
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Jan 3, 2020 08:55
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Cloud and Tifa is a better love story than any in FF8 and and 9 with the possible exception of Steiner and Beatrix
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Jan 3, 2020 09:31
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jokes posted:Why didn’t Cloud ever like like Tifa? Is it because she didn’t pull brain tricks on him like Aeristh? he ALWAYS liked Tifa. it's a whole arc of unrequited love where he couldn't live up to what he thought she wanted, and then later on (post Nibelheim) he was a little too cool for it and/or too messed up from his own experiences; like, there's no tacit rejection but his whole involvement with Aeris could be construed that he's trying to move on from his past experiences even though he still has feelings for Tifa, he didn't think he was good enough for her (I think.) like, he friendzoned Tifa but I don't think he really wanted to, he felt like he had to because he felt that she had rejected him earlier (maybe that was all in his mind.) this game is psychologically complex! The Breakfast Sampler fucked around with this message at 09:55 on Jan 3, 2020 |
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Jan 3, 2020 09:52
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MonsieurChoc posted:They bang before going into the Northern Crater. "There are ways other than words to show someone you like them." And the rest of the party watches them bang from the Highwind. There's really few games like FF7, simply because few games are so eager to be that hosed up. The FF7 cast has some serious issues, and Cloud and Tifa in particular had such hosed-up lives that it's a miracle they're as put-together as they are.
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Jan 3, 2020 10:13
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Onmi posted:Keep in mind she also thinks she's gone crazy. Since Cloud starts perfectly recalling things like Nibelheim when Tifa was there and as far as she knew he wasn't there's also the fact that Tifa did, in fact, see him there briefly, but after she had gotten stabbed and in a context that makes no sense to her based on what she actually knows, so she might be left with this weird feeling of "maybe he was there" without any concrete memories attached to it
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Jan 3, 2020 11:06
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Mega64 posted:And the rest of the party watches them bang from the Highwind. And this is why FF7 is one of the best in the series. It commits to how hosed up its leads are.
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Jan 3, 2020 12:21
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FF7 is the Disco Elysium of JRPGs.
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Jan 3, 2020 13:16
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Squatting to Disco music.
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Jan 3, 2020 13:42
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Terper posted:Cloud and Tifa is a better love story than any in FF8 and and 9 with the possible exception of Steiner and Beatrix What about the true love story though, Cloud/Aerith? I think the most notable change in my FFVII fandom is how when I first played FFVII back in 2002 I was a hardcore Tifa fanboy. I never saw Aerith's death coming because she's so clearly the female lead of the game and obviously gonna be the one Cloud ends up with. Everything in the game pushes her as second only to Cloud in importance and their love story gets a ton of focus. Then she dies. And I was like yay! because Tifa was gonna get Cloud now. But here in 2020, and for the last several years honestly, I have really come to prefer Aerith. I think she's not only a much more intriguing character, her and Cloud just feel right together. The Compilation has tried really hard to make Zack a character people care about and to shape him as Aerith's One True Love but she said in the game that he was whatever and I stand by that. Dude got owned by Sephiroth in five seconds off-screen and then killed by two Shinra mooks. You can bet they're changing that in the remake.
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Jan 3, 2020 13:51
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Well you see Cloud is not a necrophiliac, I don't think. Cloud and Aerith as a love story is perfectly fine, but like, she dies. That's a whole thing. I'm perfectly fine with Zack and Aerith and Cloud and Aerith and Cloud and Tifa and the lovely thing is that they can all exist and be canon because two of them hit the dirt harder than a meteor and moving on is a whole thing in the story. That's why I think the Golden Saucer date with Aerith and the Shagohod scene with Tifa are both good and can exist simultaneously.
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Jan 3, 2020 14:05
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Jan 3, 2020 14:07
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aeris never actually cared about cloud, that was the problem. she was using him as a stand-in for her old flame, and she knew it, which is why she's clearly uncomfortable if you take her to gongaga and if you bring her on the gondola ride she tries to tell cloud "look, i messed up, i've been playing you from the beginning, is it possible to start over and get to know each other for who we really are?" but she can't spit it out, and cloud is still too damaged to even understand what she's trying to say, so neither of them receive closure before cloud drives her off and she gets killed both aeris and tifa treat cloud like the person they want him to be, at the expense of who is actually is. but tifa makes up for that mistake by reunifying his persona after the mideel earthquake (though she's still got serious codependency issues that are never resolved), while aeris doesn't take that chance in time
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Jan 3, 2020 14:08
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NikkolasKing posted:What about the true love story though, Cloud/Aerith? Zack owns Crisis Core is one of the better spinoffs and the change in Zack's final battle is good. 
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Jan 3, 2020 14:10
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Jan 3, 2020 14:10
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Sefal posted:Zack owns zack getting unceremoniously shot by a couple of shinra grunts who were probably thinking more about their asses falling asleep on the car ride over was a way better fit for the original game's tone, though i was never a fan of crisis core's ending to start with
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Jan 3, 2020 14:16
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NikkolasKing posted:What about the true love story though, Cloud/Aerith? The point of the original story though is that Aeris is in love with the idea of Zack, not Cloud. From the first moment they meet she flirts and talks about how he reminds her of Zack. By the time of the date scene she talks about how, for once, she'd like to meet him, not Zack. The real Cloud. Then after that she assumes a sisterly/motherly figure as she realizes she's both the only one who gets what's going on and the only one who can do something. She dated him and gave him every chance to come out, but he didn't. After the Gold Saucer date the love story between Aeris and Cloud was essentially over. Ironically, what seals the deal is that she can't reach him, and Tifa is playing along with the delusion. On a very personal level, my interpretation is that Cloud never really felt any genuine interest for either of them. The endless jokes about Tifa being friendzoned are nothing new, but Cloud takes every chance in every iteration of FF7 (and so far, it seems the same for the remake) to push her away as a love interest. He sells himself as single and available and I get the feeling that he's just imitating what he imagines Zack, the cool free-spirited guy would do when Aeris asks him out. And even the ending where Cloud and Tifa are officially together is conditional. It always felt to me like Cloud ended up with Tifa the same way the characters in Battlestar Galactica end up as couples: "We're only together because there's no one else". Also one of my favorite parallels, and I'm not sure how intentional or not it is, is the fact that Johnny stuck close to Tifa, and he was to Tifa like she is to Cloud. But Johnny eventually moved on, and after a rough patch he finds himself a nice place and a nice person. Aeris in a way did the same. Like Mega says, the game fully sells the fact that these are severely hosed up people, so it's a good contrast that Johnny found his happiness as soon as he got rid of the people living in fantasy/delusions/codependency. If he hadn't done that, friendly reminder, he would be dead.
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Jan 3, 2020 14:26
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Oxxidation posted:aeris never actually cared about cloud, that was the problem. she was using him as a stand-in for her old flame, and she knew it, which is why she's clearly uncomfortable if you take her to gongaga and if you bring her on the gondola ride she tries to tell cloud "look, i messed up, i've been playing you from the beginning, is it possible to start over and get to know each other for who we really are?" but she can't spit it out, and cloud is still too damaged to even understand what she's trying to say, so neither of them receive closure before cloud drives her off and she gets killed I feel this is an excessively negative reading of Aerith and what she says on the date. Aerith tells Cloud she's searching for him and wants to meet the real him. If she was ever at any point using Cloud as a substitute for Zack it wasn't a conscious thing and if anything their similarity seems to make her uncomfortable. When she did become aware of all this craziness she turned around and started doing what she could to help Cloud rediscover his true self. I remember the date better than the Gunaga sequence but I don't think the Gungaga dialogue really helps the case she was overly attached to Zack: Cloud: Aeris... Aeris: What a shock... I didn't know Zack was from this town. Cloud: You know him? Aeris: Didn't I tell you? He was my first love. Cloud: ............ Aeris: Zack... SOLDIER First Class. Same as Cloud. Cloud: Strange, there aren't that many who make First Class, but I've never heard of him. Aeris: That's all right. It's all in the past now. I was just worried because I heard he's been missing. Cloud: Missing? Aeris: I think it was 5 years ago. He went out on a job, and never came back. He loved women, a real lady's man. He probably found someone else... Hey? What's wrong? Cloud - Poor guy - (...jealous... envious...) Poor guy Aeris: I don't really mind that I haven't heard from him. But I feel for his parents. (...jealous... envious...) Aeris: Are you... jealous? Hmm? Hmmm? Are you, Cloud? He turns away. Aeris: I'm kidding. I'm sorry. Aeris: Let's go, Clou Man now I wanna replay FFVII. NikkolasKing fucked around with this message at 14:41 on Jan 3, 2020 |
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Jan 3, 2020 14:36
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NikkolasKing posted:I feel this is an excessively negative reading of Aerith it isn't. she makes the comparison to zack right off and is using cloud both as a stand-in for him and a quick way to escape from the turks. she finds out very quickly that the situation is more serious than she initially treated it, but their relationship is built on a false foundation and while she feels like poo poo about it she can't bring herself to address that initial deception cloud in turn is still obsessed with her even after she dies, which is even worse. fuckin cid and shera probably have a healthier relationship at the end of FF7 than anyone in the cloud/tifa/aeris hell-triangle
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Jan 3, 2020 14:45
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Elentor posted:On a very personal level, my interpretation is that Cloud never really felt any genuine interest for either of them. Thankfully, FF7 is a good video game and has many personal interpretations for everyone that are all cool and valid
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Jan 3, 2020 14:49
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Yeah I never posted that on my LP because it's a very personal and fairly cynical interpretation. But I agree that the fact that such extremely complicated relationships between really stressed out people being hard to read and open to interpretation is a good thing.
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Jan 3, 2020 14:59
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Wow are we gonna scratch our heads when Cloud professes his undying and eternal love for Yuffie in an unavoidable scene at the end of FF7R.
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Jan 3, 2020 15:00
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Terper posted:Wow are we gonna scratch our heads when Cloud professes his undying and eternal love for Barrett in an unavoidable scene at the end of FF7R. FTFY
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Jan 3, 2020 15:03
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I think this is all just a testament of how an unusually well written game FFVII is. Like yeah, it’s silly and weird and suffers from some translation issues, but its core is really something special. It makes me wonder where Sakaguchi and Kitase’s heads were at when writing it. Probably lots of The Thing, Akira, and Twin Peaks.
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Jan 3, 2020 15:16
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HD DAD posted:I think this is all just a testament of how an unusually well written game FFVII is. Like yeah, it’s silly and weird and suffers from some translation issues, but its core is really something special. Remember that Parasite Eve split from VII in development
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Jan 3, 2020 15:19
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HD DAD posted:I think this is all just a testament of how an unusually well written game FFVII is. Like yeah, it’s silly and weird and suffers from some translation issues, but its core is really something special. Xenogears was originally gonna be FFVII. It explains a lot, including why Cloud is pretty unique for the FF franchise. He's more like Fei than Cecil or whoever.
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Jan 3, 2020 15:21
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HD DAD posted:I think this is all just a testament of how an unusually well written game FFVII is. Like yeah, it’s silly and weird and suffers from some translation issues, but its core is really something special. Lack of sleep and coffee.
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Jan 3, 2020 15:29
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oOiPU7cmLn0&t=2282s
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Jan 3, 2020 15:34
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NikkolasKing posted:Xenogears was originally gonna be FFVII. Square had a thing with aliens crashing into planets and loving people up ala Chrono Trigger, FFVII and Xenogears.
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Jan 3, 2020 15:50
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That was also the plot of FFs before. It was a very common theme in Japanese media in the 80's.
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Jan 3, 2020 15:52
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The worst thing about FF7 is that people liked it so much. It’s like all the depictions of Cloud since FF7 are based on a really long game of telephone about the character. Anyways, hype for FF7R is making me think about replaying FF7. Especially so I can remember how the characters originally were.
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Jan 3, 2020 16:03
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I’m just happy that they seem to be mostly nailing the original characterizations in FFVIIR, rather than what they became during the compilation nonsense.
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Jan 3, 2020 16:08
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MonsieurChoc posted:They bang before going into the Northern Crater. Had to enter the Southern Crater before the Northern Crater 
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Jan 3, 2020 16:12
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Elentor posted:
Is it bad I don't remember Johnny?
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Jan 3, 2020 16:24
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Elentor posted:FF7 is the Disco Elysium of JRPGs. I wouldn't doubt that FF7 had a lot of influence on the developers of DE.
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Jan 3, 2020 16:47
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Also I just now noticed that Tifa's new design has thigh-high socks that she didn't have in the original, and this bothers me for reasons I can't quite explain.
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Jan 3, 2020 16:49
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A thought occurs to me: We talk a lot about unrealistic ages in JRPGs. Celes being a general and everything while she's eighteen or some crazy poo poo to give one quick example. FFVII tends to get some praise for featuring a main cast of people in their early 20s. Cloud for instance is 21. And that's when it dawned on me. I was thinking about Cloud's lame reaction to Yuffie kissing him and I likened it to how I would have reacted when I was a teenager. Cloud is not technically a teenager but he has spent the last five years of his life in a tube. Even if his mind wasn't held together by flimsy tape, he is still only sixteen emotionally/psychologically speaking.
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Jan 3, 2020 17:21
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