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teagone posted:Luke had felt the darkness growing in Ben during their training, and when he read his thoughts to confirm his worst fears, he had realized Snoke had already turned him to the dark side. Luke ignited his saber in the brief moment of temptation which was an act that ultimately broke his spirit as a teacher, mentor, and uncle. He never physically attacked Ben. Ben (already turned to the dark side) struck first in confusion, and brought down the whole structure on top of Luke. Imagine yourself as Ben instead of as Luke. Your mentor figure has snuck into your room, invaded your thoughts, and readied a lethal weapon. Are you under attack? Zoran fucked around with this message at 08:09 on Jan 7, 2020 |
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Jan 7, 2020 07:50
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Zoran posted:Imagine yourself as Ben instead of as Luke. Your mentor figure has snuck into your room, invaded your thoughts, and readied a lethal weapon. Have you been attacked? I mean, the specific way you're wording what happened doesn't give an option to suggest anything otherwise, so why ask? Lol. I just don't agree that Luke straight up attacked Ben. He thought about it for a brief moment. But this is like arguing semantics so  I agree to disagree at this point.Horizon Burning posted:the saber is up and above him, held in the right hand, blade pointing down behind his shoulder. it's more obvious in motion. https://i.imgur.com/fYuIivO.mp4
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Jan 7, 2020 08:13
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sponges posted:I don’t recall Ben being such a lost cause that he’s deserving of being murdered but it’s been awhile since I’ve seen TLJ. Luke had already sensed the darkness growing in Ben during their training. When he went to go confirm his worst fears by reading Ben's thoughts, he had sensed that Snoke already turned his heart. This is literally Luke's VO in TLJ during that flashback scene. At that point, for all intents and purposes, that was Kylo Ren inside the tent. The movie gives you everything you need to know as to why Luke was tempted to do what he did, and explores what the act of doing so did to his spirit.
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Jan 7, 2020 08:20
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I think I would have no real issues with the luke arc in TLJ if rey eg found him in space jail. The idea that he fled, while I guess necessary to mesh the story with TFA, just doesn’t work well with what rian was trying to do- TLJ luke is mostly just defeated and not really proud, vain, or caring about looking after the book tree enough to sensically be a space sovcit and all the skeeviness that comes with that
No Mods No Masters fucked around with this message at 08:24 on Jan 7, 2020 |
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Jan 7, 2020 08:21
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teagone posted:Luke had already sensed the darkness growing in Ben during their training. When he went to go confirm his worst fears by reading Ben's thoughts, he had sensed that Snoke already turned his heart. This is literally dialogue in TLJ. At that point, for all intents and purposes, that was Kylo Ren inside the tent. The movie gives you everything you need to know as to why Luke was tempted to do what he did, and explores what the act of doing so did to his spirit. So really Luke's failure was that he didn't kill Kylo Ren when he had the chance and save countless lives?
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Jan 7, 2020 08:21
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teagone posted:I mean, the specific way you're wording what happened doesn't give an option to suggest anything otherwise, so why ask? Lol. I just don't agree that Luke straight up attacked Ben. He thought about it for a brief moment. But this is like arguing semantics so In what way do you feel I have misrepresented the facts, at least as far as Ben (or any outside observer) could know them? The first part of your post here says I’ve done a bad job presenting the situation. In the second half I think you’re saying that we disagree about whether my conclusion follows from the facts, but I’m interested in establishing what the facts are first.
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Jan 7, 2020 08:27
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He didnt have a problem mercing a couple of pig guys in Jabba's palace who had the audacity to do their jobs.
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Jan 7, 2020 08:31
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Zoran posted:In what way do you feel I have misrepresented the facts, at least as far as Ben (or any outside observer) could know them? The first part of your post here says I’ve done a bad job presenting the situation. In the second half I think you’re saying that we disagree about whether my conclusion follows from the facts, but I’m interested in establishing what the facts are first. You're explicitly painting Luke in negative light by using words like "snuck" and "invaded" while also leaving out dialogue/VO that I feel is important to properly contextualize the events of the scene. The facts are plain as day: Luke senses darkness in Ben, goes to confirm if he's right, ends up seeing way worse poo poo, gets scared and flirts with the dark side to prevent said worse poo poo from happening, that temptation subsides and regret floods in, Ben realizes Luke knows he's been turned by Snoke, Ben retaliates.
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Jan 7, 2020 08:37
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Here, I'll agree with this: putting myself in Ben's place during the scene, yes, I would feel attacked, because I now know my master realizes I've turned to the Dark Side. I am the villain and I feel like the hero, with his weapon drawn, is attacking or is about to attack me. BUT, context matters. So...
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Jan 7, 2020 08:40
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Y'all are arguing about the exact events of a scene whose point is so literally that it's ambiguous, subjective, and open to interpretation that the movie contains three different versions of it from the perspectives of two different characters. Luke is already in space jail. He sent himself there. I don't think that it's disrespectful to tell a story predicated on the concept "What if the erstwhile hero hosed up big time and spent the rest of his life regretting it?" - provided that the nature of the failure is consistent with his prior depiction. In this case, it is consistent, on account of it's Luke Skywalker continuing to feel tempted to whip out his laser sword and chop up the captain of the red team no matter who they are, even though he knows better. I do think it's kind of a cop-out that Luke and Leia both died by overexerting themselves with the Force. piL posted:He didnt have a problem mercing a couple of pig guys in Jabba's palace who had the audacity to do their jobs. Those guys didn't die (from choking, they probably died when he blew up the sail barge if they were on it).
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Jan 7, 2020 08:44
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Bongo Bill posted:Y'all are arguing about the exact events of a scene whose point is so literally that it's ambiguous, subjective, and open to interpretation that the movie contains three different versions of it from the perspectives of two different characters. Yeah I realized this, and resigned to saying it's basically just arguing semantics. I'll stand by that, and call it quits. [edit] To pile on the semantics thing. I don't feel Ben was attacked. But I do feel he was threatened. 
teagone fucked around with this message at 08:47 on Jan 7, 2020 |
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Jan 7, 2020 08:45
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Even Luke isn’t convinced that Ben was beyond saving at the time. Yes, he says “Snoke has already turned [Ben's] heart”—but Luke's moment of clarity, after his fear has passed, leaves him with just an impression of “a frightened boy whose master has failed him.” If you’re concluding from all this that Ben was already an evil person, are you not yourself making the mistake that Luke did? The one that apparently caused him to live in shame for the rest of his years?
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Jan 7, 2020 08:49
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teagone posted:Here, I'll agree with this: putting myself in Ben's place during the scene, yes, I would feel attacked, because I now know my master realizes I've turned to the Dark Side. I am the villain and I feel like the hero, with his weapon drawn, is attacking or is about to attack me. You're reading the scene wrong though. The point is that Ben has not turned to the dark side yet when Luke goes to his hut. That happens only after he wakes up to see Luke standing above him with his lightsaber. This is supported by the visual language of the scene which portrais Ben as sleeping peacefully in a white robe and with a innocent expression on his face when he sees Luke. Luke realizes at this point that he hosed up and actually contemplated killing his nephew, presumably a teenager at that point, who has done nothing wrong so far. It was a trap set up by Snoke. Ben sees Luke who looks like he's about to kill him and realizes that Snoke has been right and his uncle is actually a shithead (I'm not declaring what I think Luke is here but what I presume was a part of Snoke corrupting Ben). He doesn't attack Luke because he realizes he's been busted. Force visions are consistently misleading/incomplete in Star Wars and acting upon them usually has ironic results.
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Jan 7, 2020 08:51
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Luke definitely acted based on a self-fulfilling prophecy arising from fear. One which The Rise of Skywalker seems to imply that Palpatine sent him. What actually happened doesn't matter so much. What matters is how the characters involved felt about it.
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Jan 7, 2020 08:53
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Bongo Bill posted:Y'all are arguing about the exact events of a scene whose point is so literally that it's ambiguous, subjective, and open to interpretation that the movie contains three different versions of it from the perspectives of two different characters. The thing is that the story as written involves Luke committing many more crimes on top of his obvious biggest failure, and he never owns up about them to any of the people he hurt. It's not just a story about him loving up big time and regretting it for the rest of his days. His own self-imposed punishment hides him away from many people who deserve, at the very least, an explanation and an apology. They never get it, but Luke gets to go out a galactic hero anyway. I do not think this tracks with the prior characterization of Luke at all.
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Jan 7, 2020 09:04
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Captain Jesus posted:You're reading the scene wrong though. The point is that Ben has not turned to the dark side yet when Luke goes to his hut. I mean, Rey forced Luke to tell the truth regarding whether he created Kylo Ren and goes on to say: Luke posted:I saw darkness. I sensed it building in him. I'd seen it in moments during his training. But then I looked inside, and it was beyond what I ever imagined. Snoke had already turned his heart. You can read what I bolded as prophetic or literal I guess, but imo Luke isn't seeing a vision there, he's literally sensing Ben has, at that point, already been turned to the dark side. Luke then goes on to say: quote:He would bring destruction and pain and death, and the end of everything I love because of what he will become, and for the briefest moment of pure instinct, I thought I could stop it. It passed like a fleeting shadow, and I was left with shame, and with consequence. And the last thing I saw were the eyes of a frightened boy whose Master had failed him. Does that suggest that Ben is still good there? It's not entirely clear imo. The way I read it, is that Ben had already given into darkness, and Luke was just affirming events he felt were coming as a result of Ben having been turned. Ben was scared that Luke sensed the darkness in him, and as such, opted to attack Luke because of that fear. [edit] But, again, read it however you'd like. That's just my take on it and if you think I'm wrong, then Also I never got the implication that Snoke set up some kind of Force trap for Luke by making Ben a dark side honey pot. Maybe I missed something? teagone fucked around with this message at 09:14 on Jan 7, 2020 |
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Jan 7, 2020 09:04
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teagone posted:I mean, Rey forced Luke to tell the truth regarding whether he created Kylo Ren and goes on to say: Luke seeing what Ben will become is definitely a vision. I think the movie even shows Luke seeing future events in one of the flashbacks. This vision is apparently what makes Luke think that Snoke has already turned Ben's heart. The final turn to the dark side also seems to necessitate an act - Luke killing Emperor/Vader, Anakin attacking Mace Windu, Rey killing Emperor. Having bad thoughts is not enough. It is also importat that Kylo has never been fully on board with being a bad guy which is why Snoke wanted him to kill Han and even that really didn't do the trick.
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Jan 7, 2020 09:12
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Captain Jesus posted:The final turn to the dark side also seems to necessitate an act - Luke killing Emperor/Vader, Anakin attacking Mace Windu, Rey killing Emperor. Having bad thoughts is not enough. It is also importat that Kylo has never been fully on board with being a bad guy which is why Snoke wanted him to kill Han and even that really didn't do the trick. Hmm, good point. The way Luke's VO is written and delivered does muddy things up a bit now that I'm taking in other interpretations. teagone fucked around with this message at 09:22 on Jan 7, 2020 |
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Jan 7, 2020 09:19
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I thought it was pretty clear that Luke regretted it as soon as he turned on his lightsaber but it was already too late by then because Ben saw his mentor apparently trying to kill him and, from his perspective, practiced reasonable self-defense. The whole loving point of the scene was that it was a misunderstanding, neither side had gone fully dark side by that point, but by simply reaching that point they passed a point of no return. It's a tragedy where neither side acted maliciously yet it still goes horribly wrong for both of them.
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Jan 7, 2020 09:45
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I just found out they killed Nien Numb off-screen! gently caress THESE MOVIES!
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Jan 7, 2020 10:13
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Clarste posted:I thought it was pretty clear that Luke regretted it as soon as he turned on his lightsaber but it was already too late by then because Ben saw his mentor apparently trying to kill him and, from his perspective, practiced reasonable self-defense. The whole loving point of the scene was that it was a misunderstanding, neither side had gone fully dark side by that point, but by simply reaching that point they passed a point of no return. It's a tragedy where neither side acted maliciously yet it still goes horribly wrong for both of them. but which of them are the Reasonable Republican in this metaphor
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Jan 7, 2020 11:14
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TheDeadlyShoe posted:Star Trek: Attack of the Khans Pretty much this. TheDeadlyShoe posted:TLJ Luke is literally a Ben Kenobi retread. He's a crazy old man living in the middle of nowhere marinating in his failures, who then imparts his wisdom to the new generation before confronting and apparently being killed by his fallen apprentice. Ben Kenobi is not a "crazy old man marinating on his failures in the middle of nowhere." He's enacting a deliberate plan formed between him and Yoda to watch over Luke (perhaps to make sure that Luke doesn't go Dark Side as well as his father) with the idea that he'll train Luke in the Force to turn him into a weapon to kill Vader and the Emperor. Fortunately, that plan failed because Luke, despite his statement to the contrary, was not a Jedi like his father. He was a better person than that. If Ben and Yoda's plan had "worked" Luke would killed Vader and then taken his place at the Emperor's side. Whatever their wisdom in the Force, Ben and Yoda were kind of deeply stupid. Luke ignited his saber and considered killing his nephew when he saw what might/would become the future. It's a moment of fear and weakness - a moment of Darkness for Luke himself. It's also the moment that ensured the loss of Ben Solo to Darkness. Luke is "marinating in his failure" because unlike Ben Kenobi, he played an unwitting but active part in his student's fall into darkness. Everyone fucked around with this message at 11:59 on Jan 7, 2020 |
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Jan 7, 2020 11:49
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Really, it was Ben's fault for taking a background with +20 Dark Side points at character creation, it means he pinged on Luke's Detect Evil roll without even having done anything bad yet.
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Jan 7, 2020 12:51
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Like should have been like "Congratulations my apprentice, you've mastered being aware of your surroundings even in your sleep. That's why I'm promoting you to the kennel of Jedi Knight. Yeah, that's what was happening there. This was a self defense trial. And you passed with flying colors."
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Jan 7, 2020 13:07
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Ben Solo murders billions. Killing him as he slept would have been objectively better.
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Jan 7, 2020 13:37
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Angry Salami posted:I just found out they killed Nien Numb off-screen! gently caress THESE MOVIES! Where? How?
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Jan 7, 2020 13:45
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John Wick of Dogs posted:Like should have been like "Congratulations my apprentice, you've mastered being aware of your surroundings even in your sleep. That's why I'm promoting you to the kennel of Jedi Knight. Yeah, that's what was happening there. This was a self defense trial. And you passed with flying colors." Ben: what are you doing? Luje: uhhhh rave party!! get your laser swords out
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Jan 7, 2020 13:46
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I like Luke being tempted by the dark side because if it's capable of turning the most noble hero after all he's been through, it establishes it as something to take seriously. It makes the Jedi way cooler if they are constantly battling becoming evil their entire lives rather than invincible Buddha types. Who can relate to that?
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Jan 7, 2020 13:53
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It wouldn't have been my choice to have Luke be a failure hermit either and for all intents and purposes TFA doesn't seem to hint to this either. However, TLJ did sell me on the idea. We have a guy feeling invincible after beating the Emperor and saving his father. He literally saved the universe! Everyone tells him this! Then the weight of the universe falls on his shoulders as he struggles to rebuild a Jedi order, which is what everyone was expecting him to do. Remember in the same movie where he defeated the emperor he told Yoda he wasn't ready yet. Like a normal human he has doubts and there's no one except Leia to talk to about whether what he's doing is good enough. When finally he senses darkness in one of his students. Worse even, it's his nephew of all people. His Nephew with the power of the Skywalkers, Luke has flashbacks to the thrown room and the realization that he is older now. If he fails, everything falls. (or so he feels) Ben gets more insecure as he senses something is off, which further feeds into the manipulation from Snoke. (what manipulation doesn't matter) In a moment of weakness Luke sneaks into the room and senses the darkness in Bens heart. He stops himself, but Ben wakes up. Shame, the feelings of failure etc follow and he secludes himself. It all feels very believable to me. I wouldn't have minded seeing Luke take up a more Obi Wan role and sacrifice himself during a more active moment. Even if it is even more copy paste from the original. But this works as well for me. I still would've preferred to see Luke get up at the end of the movie, get his Xwing (which we now know was either easy to fix or still works) and go to help out properly. For all the faults in TLJ, at this point I do think that if you give Rian Johnson his own trilogy he could make a good and probably more interesting trilogy than JJ could. The problem is still that the movies just don't match eachother properly. I feel like the ST mostly made the Force much too powerful for it's own good. Interstellar projections, lightning storms knocking out entire fleets (I know old EU), objects teleporting through time and space, healing, life giving, janking ships out of the sky. At present there doesn't seem to be any limit and it makes the previous Jedi look really stupid. Does anyone know if the Knights who say Ren were force users? edit: banned from Starbucks posted:Where? How?
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Jan 7, 2020 13:57
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Darth TNT posted:We have a guy feeling invincible after beating the Emperor and saving his father. He literally saved the universe! Everyone tells him this! the only person who knew what happened in that throne room was luke. did luke tell people he saved the universe? why? it would be a lie because vader saved the universe (and luke) by destroying the emperor (temporarily lol) this is one of those 'the characters watched the movies' things.
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Jan 7, 2020 14:03
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The Emperor was gonna die either way, the Death Star blew up. Luke's victory was over Vader's soul.
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Jan 7, 2020 14:06
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Darth TNT posted:It wouldn't have been my choice to have Luke be a failure hermit either and for all intents and purposes TFA doesn't seem to hint to this either. The dude was a moisture-farming teenager trained for—at maximum—a few months in a swamp by Yoda. And by the end he still didn't get it. Luke couldn't even lift the space plane. Whereas proper Jedi were trained from birth by a massive temple full of Jedi Masters with a computer library of endless knowledge. It's like a yokel going to seminary for a few months, being given a bible, and being told to restart the Catholic church from scratch with no resources. People read too many Young Jedi Knights books as kids. feedmyleg fucked around with this message at 14:41 on Jan 7, 2020 |
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Jan 7, 2020 14:14
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Star Wars fans are conservatives. They hate change, can’t deal with minorities, froth at the mouth whenever a god-like figure’s authority, motivations, and character are called into question, and are obsessed with the past while completely failing to recollect it accurately. No wonder they can’t deal with someone actually doing something interesting with Luke, especially when the seeds were already planted in the OT. Getting real STC in here, guys.
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Jan 7, 2020 14:22
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Yeah, that just about sums it up.
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Jan 7, 2020 14:38
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1) Luke absolutely and unquestionably tried to murder his nephew for thoughtcrimes. But, 2) Have you seen the movies? Jedi are constantly scheming against eachother and pulling that kind of poo poo, so there’s really nothing unusual there. SuperMechagodzilla fucked around with this message at 14:53 on Jan 7, 2020 |
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Jan 7, 2020 14:50
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teagone posted:gave me exactly that in TLJ, which is why it's my favorite Star War outside of the TV shows and comics (which both offer much better Star Wars-ing imo). This guy gets it. I like TLJ the more I mull over it. Tho it was goddamn infuriating at the time.  Its solid as gently caress.I also feel like the comics are essential reading for fans for the worldbuilding alone. They've been great for years.
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Jan 7, 2020 14:52
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I read some of those comics. They were very bad. Good Star Wars things in chronological order: ANH, Alec Guinness hating Star Wars, the Moebius-style Boba Fett Cartoon from the Holiday Special, the Star Wars Muppet Show episode, ESB, Harrison Ford hating Star Wars, the 80s Droids comics, the Tag & Bink comics, George Lucas hating Star Wars fans, the 2D Clone Wars, the 3D Clone Wars, George Lucas hating Star Wars, TLJ, me hating Star Wars
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Jan 7, 2020 15:02
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Tarnop posted:2. He dies youuuuu loving liar!
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Jan 7, 2020 15:04
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I think I would have liked TLJ a lot less if it had not followed TFA. I went in with very low expectations, ready to hate it, because I really hated the laziness of TFA. But it surprised me by at least trying to create a theme out of the Kylo/Rey dynamic and not doubling down on the mystery box bullshit. E: I suppose that's damning it with faint praise, but Star Wars and Marvel are movies I go see with a specific group of friends and very often I go more to spend time with them than anything else, so getting something that didn't retreat exactly what I expected it to was genuine surprising to me. Beelzebufo fucked around with this message at 15:12 on Jan 7, 2020 |
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Jan 7, 2020 15:08
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The Little Death posted:I think I would have liked TLJ a lot less if it had not followed TFA. I went in with very low expectations, ready to hate it, because I really hated the laziness of TFA. But it surprised me by at least trying to create a theme out of the Kylo/Rey dynamic and not doubling down on the mystery box bullshit. The biggest problem with TLJ was the Casino part, but most of that came from the ridiculous set-up. Still without it as things were, you have Poe with his "conflict with authority" plot, Rey with Luke and Kylo, then Finn and Rose as... passengers with their thumbs up their asses for most of the movie. It might have made more sense to re-jigger things to have Finn and Rose get together before the First Order attack and head to the Casino to get some kind of whatits to prevent the First Order from tracking the Fleet through Hyperspace, still miss their contact and meet DJ, who offers them the deal of "I don't have the whatits, but if you can get me onto the First Order ship, I can disable their tracking from there" and when they're caught he sells them out. The worst thing about the Casino bit is the "time and space are meaningless" in Star Wars that RoS quadruple-downed on.
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Jan 7, 2020 15:42
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