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Fister Roboto posted:This is probably the worst mechanic they've ever added to the game. Does anybody think it's a good thing for random European countries to be able to grab huge chunks of land in Asia for a handful of ducats? It really should have been like ck2 trade ports modified to having to pay for the rights to the trade power bonus of the CoT from the country without giving away actual control of the territory. Rynoto fucked around with this message at 02:49 on Jan 7, 2020 |
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Jan 7, 2020 02:46
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AAAAA! Real Muenster posted:It boggles my mind that I grew up in eastern PA and had no idea this was a thing. you can just set the game to 1.19 or something and have fun again
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Jan 7, 2020 02:50
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I don't know why they went with the current trade company system instead of doing something like the trading post system from CK2 where you can have a building in a region that doesn't give you control of the province itself. You could make it something like "provinces with this building in it count as owned for purposes of trade/colonial range and trade node control", you could even make it so having a building in the region like that gives you a CB on the province so its still a tool for territorial expansion in overseas holdings.
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Jan 7, 2020 02:51
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AnEdgelord posted:I don't know why they went with the current trade company system instead of doing something like the trading post system from CK2 where you can have a building in a region that doesn't give you control of the province itself. You could make it something like "provinces with this building in it count as owned for purposes of trade/colonial range and trade node control", you could even make it so having a building in the region like that gives you a CB on the province so its still a tool for territorial expansion in overseas holdings.
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Jan 7, 2020 03:07
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oddium posted:you can just set the game to 1.19 or something and have fun again I haven't played a campaign in a year or so, but if I come back and do a campaign in the region again, I'll probably just play without ironman mode and use the console to fix this bullshit when it comes up.
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Jan 7, 2020 03:09
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AnEdgelord posted:I don't know why they went with the current trade company system instead of doing something like the trading post system from CK2 where you can have a building in a region that doesn't give you control of the province itself. You could make it something like "provinces with this building in it count as owned for purposes of trade/colonial range and trade node control", you could even make it so having a building in the region like that gives you a CB on the province so its still a tool for territorial expansion in overseas holdings. im almost positive this is a mechanic that already exists but only for merchant republics(?)
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Jan 7, 2020 03:16
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oddium posted:you can just set the game to 1.19 or something and have fun again
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Jan 7, 2020 03:32
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Dr. Video Games 0031 posted:More often than not, what happens to me when I'm playing in India is that a European power will buy a province required for me to complete an early mission, and I have to put the entire loving Indian mission tree on hold for a century while I build up power and the ability to fight a world war. Then I fight a clusterfuck of a war across the globe just so I can get a single lovely 6 dev province and immediately complete like 7 missions at once after I'm done since I've already met the conditions for all the other missions. This loving sucks. That seems pointless for early missions. Get a claim on the province (though for missions you likely already have a permanent claim), declare a conquest war for the province, wait around for war score to tick up and Length of War to tick down enough for them to agree to hand the province over. You don't need an army strong enough to siege down Paris, you just need one that can defeat a naval landing.
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Jan 7, 2020 04:07
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AAAAA! Real Muenster posted:It boggles my mind that I grew up in eastern PA and had no idea this was a thing. Ideally I'd like to add some missions or events for the Beaver Wars, and create some of the other confederacies as tags or unions that arose in response to them. It makes things sort of hard to model in my mod, because you have things like the Cheyenne, Fox, and Osage moving from the Ohio Valley to the plains, while the tribes between wouldn't necessarily be displaced as well, but I don't necessarily want to start them at their final location. Also it wouldn't really feel fair when you beat the snot out of another tribe and they pop up with new land and end up stronger than before. There's not really a way to model a migration like that, and the current migration mechanics have no real bearing on reality. They never really made sense to me, it's not like a tribe would wander aimlessly if they did at all. They would maybe have seasonal hunting and fishing locations but they'd return to the same spots. Why are the steppe hordes always in control of their provinces even though they had similar migratory patterns to graze their horses? Edit: Also in case anyone is interested, here's a map that shows the overlapping traditional lands of all of the tribes in the Americas and Oceania. https://native-land.ca/ Gravity Cant Apple fucked around with this message at 04:47 on Jan 7, 2020 |
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Jan 7, 2020 04:31
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Looking at Brazil on that map brings up another problem with portraying the first nations better: there's places like the Amazon where we know there were a lot of people there but they were so thoroughly extirpated by disease that we have next-to-no idea what was going on with them. IIRC a lot of the modern amazonian tribes as we picture them- nomadic hunter-gatherers with extremely low populations- are the post-apocalyptic remnants of amazonians themselves as well as other peoples that fled into the jungle to keep away from the europeans.
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Jan 7, 2020 05:05
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Yeah that's definitely another problem that I'm going to have to deal with at some point, though to be fair that describes how people think of a lot of tribes when that wasn't really their society before European diseases hit. It's just that the Amazon is a lot harder to access so it was easier for those "uncontacted" tribes to not get rounded up and sent to Oklahoma. Now with new advancements in laser imaging they're seeing just how much of this jungle was actually heavily populated at one time.
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Jan 7, 2020 05:34
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Drakhoran posted:That seems pointless for early missions. Get a claim on the province (though for missions you likely already have a permanent claim), declare a conquest war for the province, wait around for war score to tick up and Length of War to tick down enough for them to agree to hand the province over. You don't need an army strong enough to siege down Paris, you just need one that can defeat a naval landing. In my last campaign, the roadblock was the ottomans. And they had access to my land.
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Jan 7, 2020 07:01
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Even if they don't have land access to you (and if they want to, they absolutely will), having to sit around for five years occasionally swatting a tiny naval invasion for a single province is... not fun. Not to mention the impact on war exhaustion and autonomy from being at war for that long. Like at the very least they should give you the option to buy the land back. Fister Roboto fucked around with this message at 07:07 on Jan 7, 2020 |
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Jan 7, 2020 07:04
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Edgar Allen Ho posted:Looking at Brazil on that map brings up another problem with portraying the first nations better: there's places like the Amazon where we know there were a lot of people there but they were so thoroughly extirpated by disease that we have next-to-no idea what was going on with them. Yet another opportunity to recommend 1491. Yeah, the pre-contact Amazonians had no metalworking and barely access to stone, most of their artifacts would be made of organic material which does NOT survive very well in a rainforest environment... but they did have pottery. And it turns out there's a lot of old pottery all over the drat place. And lots of areas with signs of soil improvement (necessary for sustained agriculture there). So, untouched primeval rainforest, maybe not so much; maybe more the world's biggest overgrown abandoned orchard. Similarly, there's the Beni savanna in (mostly) Bolivia, between the Andes and the Amazon. Thinly populated by "primitives", subject to severe seasonal flooding from the mountains... except there are the overgrown remains of a simply massive system of earthworks that someone built and maintained for centuries, with canals and causeways and mounds and raised fields. There was a whole, organized agricultural society which thrived there for a good while, but nobody knows who they were; the local first nations people who live in the area today are descended from refugees/migrants who came in later.
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Jan 7, 2020 09:50
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Also there should really be some kind of mechanic for running a country with a defensive, attrition focused defense- think places like Scotland or the Maghreb. They were materially inferior to their enemies but also they weren't exactly trivial to steamroll like they are in EU4. England shouldn't be able to just casually walk in and take half of Scotland in the middle of the War of the Roses.
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Jan 8, 2020 04:13
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Edgar Allen Ho posted:Also there should really be some kind of mechanic for running a country with a defensive, attrition focused defense- think places like Scotland or the Maghreb. They were materially inferior to their enemies but also they weren't exactly trivial to steamroll like they are in EU4. England shouldn't be able to just casually walk in and take half of Scotland in the middle of the War of the Roses. While we're at it can we crack tech penalties. Like, I get that I don't have the printing press as AQ but I literally own half of Persia and Iraq and have made it into Poland. I think my military would bring SOME technology back from their various wars.
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Jan 8, 2020 05:15
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Tech penalties shouldn't be retroactive, ie make older techs cost more. If Colonialism spawns in 1500, then any tech with an ahead of time date earlier than that should cost the normal amount.
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Jan 8, 2020 06:41
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Edgar Allen Ho posted:Also there should really be some kind of mechanic for running a country with a defensive, attrition focused defense- think places like Scotland or the Maghreb. They were materially inferior to their enemies but also they weren't exactly trivial to steamroll like they are in EU4. England shouldn't be able to just casually walk in and take half of Scotland in the middle of the War of the Roses. Again and again, it's about attrition. Having 90% of your war losses being due to attrition is not something most players would consider fun even if it is historical. And AI is already susceptible to attrition very much, they'd have to greatly up its game. And anyway you still see a lot of people wondering why can't glorious European musketeers destroy American and African empires "the way they should". Even with attrition being a joke and defensive capabilities of said empires being very low.
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Jan 8, 2020 09:23
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Anyone have any tips for playing African nations? I'm too stupid to eat my neighbors.
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Jan 8, 2020 15:51
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Edgar Allen Ho posted:Also there should really be some kind of mechanic for running a country with a defensive, attrition focused defense- think places like Scotland or the Maghreb. They were materially inferior to their enemies but also they weren't exactly trivial to steamroll like they are in EU4. England shouldn't be able to just casually walk in and take half of Scotland in the middle of the War of the Roses. Honestly I don't think anything can be done about this without reforming the way armies work on a fundamental level. Armies in this period were ruinously expensive to keep in the field, which is why that attrition based defense worked; why bother spending all that money to subdue some backwater? But in EU you need to have your armies ready all the time anyway to deter attacks, so you might as well use it to beat up minors because it costs you almost nothing.
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Jan 8, 2020 17:22
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Yes, it's like a lava lamp.
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AppleDan posted:Anyone have any tips for playing African nations? I'm too stupid to eat my neighbors. Where are you playing specifically? There are some really good tricks depending on your location, like grabbing Feudalism from the Horn of Africa if you start off near there.
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Jan 8, 2020 19:22
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ilitarist posted:Again and again, it's about attrition. Having 90% of your war losses being due to attrition is not something most players would consider fun even if it is historical. And AI is already susceptible to attrition very much, they'd have to greatly up its game. It's not currently possible to use attrition as a strategy because no matter how many modifiers you stack up it's capped at 5%, probably because the AI isn't good at managing it. Also there's not as much in the way of feedback about attrition like there is about battles and army strength. And anyway there's very little you can do to manage or mitigate attrition, other than the one idea in I think quantity ideas? Imperator's Food and Supply Train mechanics seem like good moves in the right direction toward making attrition more strategic, but I've only barely played that game since post-launch.
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Jan 8, 2020 20:43
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Family Values posted:[Attrition is] capped at 5%, probably because the AI isn't good at managing it. That is explicitly why it is capped.
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Jan 8, 2020 22:16
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AppleDan posted:Anyone have any tips for playing African nations? I'm too stupid to eat my neighbors. Yikes dude, Africans weren’t all cannibals you know 
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Jan 8, 2020 23:45
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Since I've made it to the Mississippi and a little beyond, I figured I'd show off some progress on my mod to try and keep myself accountable. Some provinces don't really follow the shape of the borders between tribes, and there can be significant overlap, so some border gore is unavoidable.  
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Jan 9, 2020 04:55
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You know, something that's irked me for years now is that the Shoshone name list is all taken from 18th-19th century Cherokee figures. The great Shoshone headman of the 1500s...Attakullakulla Boudinot.
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Jan 9, 2020 05:04
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Yeah I figured there probably wasn't a lot of thought put into the names lists, but I definitely don't have the time to do the research to fix them. If anyone has any specific suggestions I'd be more than happy to implement them. Also I'm going to need a whole lot of flags. Is there a flag generator hiding somewhere around the internet or will I just have to throw a bunch of poo poo together myself?
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Jan 9, 2020 05:15
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Fister Roboto posted:Where are you playing specifically? There are some really good tricks depending on your location, like grabbing Feudalism from the Horn of Africa if you start off near there. oh word, specifically Mali and Ethiopia
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Jan 9, 2020 06:11
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Family Values posted:It's not currently possible to use attrition as a strategy because no matter how many modifiers you stack up it's capped at 5%, probably because the AI isn't good at managing it. You can affect attrition by scorching earth or building supply depots with professionalism. But yes, the interaction is limited. But it's a game about managing globe-spanning empire, it would be weird to have a detailed supply simulation, it's not WW2. And 5% can still be huge. If the enemy has 50k stack and it's parked on top of your high attrition fort for a year then he paid 30k manpower for that siege. You probably wouldn't get casualties like that if you'd totally beaten that stack couple of times. And in this case, you've only lost income from that single fort province. It's not uncommon to have wars where the majority of losses are from attrition.
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Jan 9, 2020 09:18
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AppleDan posted:oh word, specifically Mali and Ethiopia I just literally finished a Mali run for the Abu Bakr II Ambition achievement, get 4 colonial nations in South America; so my first 30 years or so were based on setting up for fast colonization, mind. Right at the start force-vassalized Kano and Jenne, feeding them land so I'd not spend Admin; after the first couple of wars, with one ally, two vassals and your own force you are unstoppable except by coalition; by 1550 or so there were no other countries than me and my vassals in the area. Only provinces I took for myself were the Jolof ones; I only started integrating vassals once I got colonialism to spawn. Allies are strategic: not as much for actual military help, but rather to avoid coalitions. In my run, I allied Macina, Yao and Air, only betraying them when there were no other targets; Morocco was a good ally once I got discovered just for the deterrent but they rivaled me pretty soon after. Eventually, I allied Ottomans and stopped worrying about European aggression. As the Europeans started colonizing the Guinea Coast, I sniped them when they got into wars in mainland Europe, but even when they were not busy they'd be easy pickings once your army is above 20-30 - they never land more than stacks of 10-15 so you just camp them in the landing province and wipe them. Once you have a navy going too, it's even easier as they send piddly fleet outside of their own areas (except the English. drat the English). I moved trade capital to Guinea Coast pretty soon after, but it doesn't make much of a difference till Brazil and La Plata are developed. Institutions, no special trick: I developed Feudalism in my capital and Renaissance in one of the coastal provinces (just using Diplo and Military to save on Admin at first, then Admin and Military once I got Exploration). Colonialism spawned in my province so that was super easy (and only required one restart >_>) but honestly it would not have set me back any if it spawned elsewhere. Colonial Nations I went with Brazil, then La Plata, up to Peru (by conquest) and eventually Colombia; I'd say it was 50% colonization and 50% conquest by exploiting colonial wars - basically waiting for an European CN to spawn, and then I'd "Start War in Colony" with subsidies so they would get 2-3 provinces on their own, with no overlord intervention. Ideas off the top of my head were Exploration, Influence, Expansion till I got the achievement then quit; but by the time I got it, I was probably the strongest colonizer and could go easily toe to toe with the European ones (especially with big brother Ottoman watching over me) so it's an achievement run that sets you up as a really strong African nation. If I continued, I'd probably start clearing up South Africa, and then go upwards through the gold mines of East Africa.
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Jan 9, 2020 09:27
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Thank you! I'll keep this post in mind
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Jan 9, 2020 17:48
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ilitarist posted:And 5% can still be huge. If the enemy has 50k stack and it's parked on top of your high attrition fort for a year then he paid 30k manpower for that siege. You probably wouldn't get casualties like that if you'd totally beaten that stack couple of times. And in this case, you've only lost income from that single fort province. It's not uncommon to have wars where the majority of losses are from attrition. It's not really strategic though. You just build that fort years in advance and hope that in some future war someone tries to siege it and spends a year on it. All attrition in EU4 is static, based on the terrain. There's no way to dynamically, actively cause attrition, e.g. by going after the enemy supply lines. It looks like Imperator does have that, or at least the makings of it, with supply train units which theoretically you can prioritize and attack (if I'm understanding the mechanic correctly). Without the introduction of new unit types and/or a completely new mechanic like Imperator's food/supply trains, you could do something like make sieging a province with no land route back to your owned/controlled provinces cause additional attrition. Then at least the little stacks of units that run away and siege down some remote province as far away from the front lines as possible would be paying extra manpower to do so.
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Jan 9, 2020 18:23
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I gotta say, 400 hours into the game I realized the power of vasilization and why its so important to do! My Aq run has been so much better just gobbling up places and annexing them later.
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Jan 9, 2020 19:20
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Family Values posted:It's not really strategic though. You just build that fort years in advance and hope that in some future war someone tries to siege it and spends a year on it. All attrition in EU4 is static, based on the terrain. There's no way to dynamically, actively cause attrition, e.g. by going after the enemy supply lines. It looks like Imperator does have that, or at least the makings of it, with supply train units which theoretically you can prioritize and attack (if I'm understanding the mechanic correctly). Armies should be a lot slower in hostile territory too. There's no reason an enemy army should be able to outmaneuver mine in my own drat territory.
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Jan 9, 2020 21:23
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Mooseontheloose posted:I gotta say, 400 hours into the game I realized the power of vasilization and why its so important to do! My Aq run has been so much better just gobbling up places and annexing them later. Picking the Muscovy start over the weekend was an eye-opener, and I think started to unlock this game for me. "Hang on, I don't have to blow all my Admin points when I annex a vassal?" 
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Jan 9, 2020 22:32
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Mooseontheloose posted:I gotta say, 400 hours into the game I realized the power of vasilization and why its so important to do! My Aq run has been so much better just gobbling up places and annexing them later. Now it's time to discover how scutage is almost like cheating.
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Jan 9, 2020 23:35
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Fister Roboto posted:Armies should be a lot slower in hostile territory too. There's no reason an enemy army should be able to outmaneuver mine in my own drat territory. Yeah, one of my favorite random facts of the era is that Suleiman the Magnificent's army left Bulgaria on 10 May 1529, reached Ojisek on 6 August, took Buda on 8 September after a 20 day siege, and then arrived at Vienna on 27 September. It took all summer to move the army of ~100,000 up through the Balkans, while in EU you could clear all that in what, a month?
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Jan 10, 2020 01:42
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Family Values posted:Now it's time to discover how scutage is almost like cheating. GG on France for getting its vassal swarm back next patch
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Jan 10, 2020 02:12
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SirPhoebos posted:Picking the Muscovy start over the weekend was an eye-opener, and I think started to unlock this game for me. I mean, I also went easy mode by allying ottomans and letting them assist me in wars but still...
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Jan 10, 2020 15:26
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Family Values posted:Now it's time to discover how scutage is almost like cheating. And the wonders of the release-and-reconquest CB. (Find some non-existent nation that has cores on a bunch of your enemy's provinces. Take one of those in a war, release that nation as a vassal. GO WILD with reconquest CB once the truce is up. Rinse and repeat.)
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Jan 11, 2020 00:13
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