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Sab669 posted:Only about a third of the way through Starsight, and I know this isn't accurate at all but I basically picture the Kitsen like the Nibblonians from Futurama. Starsight eventually touches on an interesting thing with M-Bot. Spoilering because this is (iirc) pretty late-book stuff and you aren't that far in. M-Bot continually chafes at the restrictions in his programming throughout the book. He starts hitting failsafes and cutoffs that temporarily shut him down, which makes him sad and angry. He starts developing something of a complex about it (and probably has a point). His emotions--such as they are--are increasingly negative towards his creators in specific and organic life in a vague way. At the climax of the book, Spensa ends up having to save her people without M-Bot, who was left locked down and disabled, leading to his capture and partial destruction. He takes this as a complete betrayal, and was barely able to save fragments of himself. Spensa discovered this at the very end of the book, in one of those typical-of-Sanderson short sections where every word likely has some deeper meaning that will be explained in more detail in a future book. (so my apologies if I got some details wrong) That said, I feel it's likely that he'll be an antagonist of some sort in the third book.
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Jan 2, 2020 17:36
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Sab669 posted:Only about a third of the way through Starsight, and I know this isn't accurate at all but I basically picture the Kitsen like the Nibblonians from Futurama. I'm about at the same point you are, we just met the Kitsen I posted about this regarding Skyward last year but I was not a fan when we were told repeatedly that m-bot can't rewrite his programming, then m-bot rewrites his programming in order to save the day. I said it was like deus ex machina at the time. It seems like some of that feedback got back to Sanderson because now m-bot keeps trying to rewrite his programming and it triggers a reboot and he goes click-clickclickclick. So it seems difficult but possible. But yeah m-bot is basically cmdr data but he cant get laid (barring some really unusual fan fiction). Oh god I can't read the above spoilers
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Jan 2, 2020 18:23
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Jan 3, 2020 06:14
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Allllllllmost done with Starsight, like 30 pages to go.the book posted:“The illusions are nothing to me, Alanik,” Morriumur said. “We didn’t re al ize, during training. We treated me like anyone else—but I can see through them as two overlapping, shadowy images. I can do this. I can reach the heart. ” How did they not notice that?? e; I had the wrong thing on copy-paste 
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Jan 9, 2020 15:17
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Sab669 posted:How did they not notice that?? I dunno it doesn't seem like a stretch to me management spends millions of dollars to simulate hallucinations in the cockpits of their ships and they don't stop to think what would happen with a 2 brained "unborn" person
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Jan 9, 2020 16:29
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Yea you're right, I forgot that the ships were projecting the illusions, so it was on a per-ship basis, not "per-pilot" and therefore wouldn't have come up in training
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Jan 9, 2020 17:35
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Brandon is doing a live video q&a on his facebook atm
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Jan 11, 2020 22:25
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Sab669 posted:How did they not notice that?? From memory, most of the flight were working on drills. Spends and Brade were the ones who flew in the most, and they only tried with the illusions a few times. Also basically this: mewse posted:I dunno it doesn't seem like a stretch to me management spends millions of dollars to simulate hallucinations in the cockpits of their ships and they don't stop to think what would happen with a 2 brained "unborn" person They had never had one of those either! EDIT: The next Stormlight update is on Reddit: https://www.reddit.com/r/Stormlight_Archive/comments/emxhgo/stormlight_book_four_update_7/ Wandersail!! Wandersail!! Wandersail!! Leng fucked around with this message at 21:50 on Jan 12, 2020 |
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Jan 12, 2020 21:46
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mewse posted:I dunno it doesn't seem like a stretch to me management spends millions of dollars to simulate hallucinations in the cockpits of their ships and they don't stop to think what would happen with a 2 brained "unborn" person It's a classic edge case scenario like the kind you'd find in real world software.
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Jan 13, 2020 00:13
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Leng posted:From memory, most of the flight were working on drills. Spends and Brade were the ones who flew in the most, and they only tried with the illusions a few times. Hell yeah Rysn
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Jan 14, 2020 16:18
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I'm 70% through the Way of Kings right now. The strongest feeling I've got about it, besides being invested in Kaladin's story, is that I just don't know about this approach to the pacing of the book. You've got 3 POVs which are - mostly, at least - completely disconnected up until now and one of them (Shallan) has been an interminable inner monologue from a character who is not likeable or interesting and, most of all, constantly described as witty by others while the actual dialogue she is given is really corny and stale. I know this is a common complaint; here's my version of it. There is finally some movement on the Shallan front just where I am at, but the problem is I just don't care what happens to her at this point. I am ripping through a Kaladin chapter, only to get slapped with a Shallan one or a bunch of interludes, and I have to take a break. When I come back later, I know I'll need to swallow at least 1 boring chapter to get back to what feels like the actual story. I have the same feeling with Dalinar chapters. Less so because there is usually more happening there - but I still have to take a break. Kaladin's story is so sympathetic and tense that my immersion in the book is killed when that story is abruptly interrupted by something almost completely unrelated. I've started looking ahead to see how long it is until I get back to Kaladin, hoping the non-Kaladin chapters will be very brief. It could just be taste, maybe plenty of people enjoy the other POVs and interludes enough that they don't have this reaction, but it has been happening for at least 400 pages that I start a new chapter, don't see Kaladin's name, sigh and turn off my kindle. It isn't that I want Kaladin's POV to be the only one, but there must have been some better way to structure this so that the gulf in quality wasn't so apparent, and to stop this storytelling blue balls where the pace becomes 'want to find out how Kaladin survived this time? gotta read 10 pages of Shallan flirting with a monk first'. Cluster the most compelling parts together and resolve the immediate crisis before switching it up to ramble about world history. Condensing the POVs into 3 distinct parts would expose how repetitive Shallan's chapters are. Until the last two Shallan chapters, they have mostly been used for worldbuilding and foreshadowing while Shallan continues to not make a decision. If she was good company, it might be okay - but she isn't. I understand Shallan is the main POV character in book 2, so I'll have to do a little feeling around before I decide if I want to continue with the series after this. Maybe her character gets a lot better, or maybe her prominence was exaggerated in the post I read about it. I'm not convinced it's worth another 1000 pages though if less than a quarter of them are really the reason I'm here.
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Jan 17, 2020 17:11
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large_gourd posted:I understand Shallan is the main POV character in book 2 this is not correct and as to the rest, you should probably consider how much of that gulf between the character's internal views of herself and external actions is intentional and the thing you are supposed to be thinking right now, rather than an accident there's basically nothing to say without spoiling major things, except that shallan has more character growth than anyone else in the series and, in many ways, has farther to go than anyone else. also, i'd encourage you to stop reading this thread while reading through for the first time due to the regular, unspoilered discussions of many huge things that happen after book 1 of stormlight, but your choice I guess eke out fucked around with this message at 17:34 on Jan 17, 2020 |
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Jan 17, 2020 17:29
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Yeah Shallan isn't the main character of book 2 any more than she is of book 1, but her character is a lot more enjoyable to read in book 2 if you're a fan of Kaladin's stuff from book 1. Keep going!
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Jan 17, 2020 17:38
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I think it's a little inaccurate to say "Shallan is the main POV of #2". You get her flashbacks, but there are just as many* Kaladin and Dalinar chapters as there are Shallan. I'd say finish Way of Kings because hot drat the ending is so loving good you might be willing to tough it out. I didn't dislike Dalinar, but I didn't especially look forward to his chapters either -- but if you make it to Oathbringer again I think you'll have a very different opinion of him. The Blackthorn is an excellent character. *I'm not going to actually count the chapters, but I don't think either character becomes less prominent.
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Jan 17, 2020 17:38
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eke out posted:this is not correct That's good on the first point, makes me more likely to continue later. The second part - that isn't really anything to do with what I was criticising. Her turmoil over needing to steal to help her family vs the fact she actually likes being a scholar and wishes she could just do that guilt free is all fine. I got the point after one chapter, didn't need another 5 of the same thing before she does something and especially not when it is interrupting storylines where things are actually happening. It's the start/stop flow that I'm talking about. I don't like Shallan's character because her dialogue is bad while characters - and the book - are saying that her dialogue is actually very good. That is not by design, the dialogue is just not working for me and that's it, but it isn't really the thing that is bothering me the most. Her basic dilemma I have no problem with, it's just not that interesting because I also have no connection to her family who are barely featured. So it's like - fine gently caress the family, stay here and study case closed. The fact these tepid chapters are interrupting other ones I like more is making them seem even worse by the constant comparison - being reminded every 10 or 20 pages, 'here's the other part of this book you don't like that much', just as I'm really getting sucked into it again. There are obviously various things being built into the Shallan chapters slowly that will lead to new situations for her - hints she did something terrible in her past, likely troubled childhood, she seems to have a Shardblade which she never uses, these dark figures she keeps drawing, etc - maybe any of those will lead to more interesting material in the future, but if disconnected POVs are going to be interrupting each other this frequently, they all need to have an compelling reason to do so. large_gourd fucked around with this message at 17:49 on Jan 17, 2020 |
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Jan 17, 2020 17:42
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large_gourd posted:Her basic dilemma I have no problem with, it's just not that interesting because I also have no connection to her family who are barely featured. So it's like - fine gently caress the family, stay here and study case closed. You learn a lot more about her family in WoR. I'm not sure that'll be enough to make you care for them - to make her dilemma relatable - but her family does get fleshed out a lot more through Shallan's flashback chapters. I get where you're coming from though.
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Jan 17, 2020 17:48
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large_gourd posted:I don't like Shallan's character because her dialogue is bad while other characters and the book are saying that her dialogue is actually very good. That is not by design, the dialogue is just not working for me and that's it, but it isn't really the thing that is bothering me the most. it definitely is though, to be clear. it's just that there's a combination of (1) people being nice to the smartest student in the class who's too sheltered to know how awkward she is (2) alethi cultural practices (3) shallan not realizing when people are just humoring her. if nothing else, i can spoil the fact that, as the books progress, there are plenty of people who clearly wish she would just cut out her faux-witty poo poo eke out fucked around with this message at 17:58 on Jan 17, 2020 |
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Jan 17, 2020 17:52
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I disagree on that. Every character - I think actually every single one - that she's had a conversation with in the book has remarked on her wit. Including Jasnah, who is presented as one of the most intelligent people in the world. That is the book telling you this is essentially an objective fact about this character. Her hair is red, and she's witty. Sanderson shouldn't do this. Dial back on the remarks about her wit and maybe I won't be so annoyed when her dialogue misses the mark. The fault she's presented as having is that she'll say something witty but inappropriate or rude - not that the things she says aren't actually witty. The closest the book has come to hinting otherwise is Jasnah saying she will say the first clever thing that pops into her head, but the problem for me is that it doesn't even qualify as clever. It's always just pedantic wordplay which makes me roll my eyes and if it was just Shallan that had this problem, I could buy it being a character trait as opposed to a style issue. However, the dialogue of other characters is of a very similar style when they're written to be witty. Most obviously, the character Wit. His feature at the King's feast was garbage but he's a background character, and the rest of the characters tolerate him at best other than the King who is basically an idiot. It seems like this is just Sanderson's style of clever dialogue, I don't think it's really up to much. I think he struggles to write humour. If you think I'm missing something crucial that redeems this, okay, and maybe I'll change my opinion on it over time, but I feel like I'm on solid ground with it at the moment. I'm being pretty negative, been thinking about these two issues for at least a few days, but I'm obviously still invested in the book or I would have stopped reading. It's just a frustrating one because there are parts I'm really enjoying, and parts I'm really not. I don't usually get that - either I'm bored completely or totally in. large_gourd fucked around with this message at 18:10 on Jan 17, 2020 |
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Jan 17, 2020 18:05
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okay well i think if you keep reading you might have a different opinion since this is a fairly common take, but who knows
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Jan 17, 2020 18:10
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Jasnah thinks she's smart/has potential, as indicated by taking her on as her ward, but chides Shallan for saying the first thing that comes to her mind rather than stopping to think of something actually clever. eke out raises an interesting point I never considered though, that many of the Alethi could just be "humoring Shallan" by telling her she's funny, although Wit I think does legitimately compliment her (that might be in WoR though). Her family also often tells her she's funny/clever, but again I think that's in her flashbacks in WoR. Because I do agree with you, large_gourd, that everyone tells her she's so smart and funny and most of her jokes make me just say "ugh" to myself. But I dunno, I didn't dislike her on my first read through - it wasn't until my second, and especially my third, that I was like "I think I'm just gonna skim these chapters"
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Jan 17, 2020 18:11
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It's cool eke_out. I was starting to just belabour the point anyway, don't exactly feel clever at this point. I can see where you're coming from, and I know it's a common opinion which means people who disagree with it are already tired of it before it gets brought up. Either you're right, and everyone is humouring her which will be revealed at some point by a different POV, or it's just a taste thing in which case yeah no point in getting twisted up about it.
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Jan 17, 2020 18:15
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Book one Shallan is a real drag, although the end of her story there is actually pretty good and in retrospect I like it more then the mess that is book 3 Shallan.
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Jan 17, 2020 18:18
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Sab669 posted:Jasnah thinks she's smart/has potential, as indicated by taking her on as her ward, but chides Shallan for saying the first thing that comes to her mind rather than stopping to think of something actually clever. yeah Sanderson's gotten a lot better at writing things like that, and was definitely worse at it in the way of kings era so i've probably got some retrospective bias, since he does get a better feel for her character later in a way that retroactively explains some of her whole schtick and how [oathbringer spoilers here, srsly] Shallan-the-"clever"-scholar isn't really "her" either, so much as it's just another coping mechanism she invented
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Jan 17, 2020 18:20
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The upside of Shallan starting so far down the character development curve is that the payoff is better since she grows so much.
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Jan 17, 2020 21:53
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Shallan is literally the weird homeschooled kid who mildly acts out against their abusive parent and is praised for it by her siblings, likely the only praise she's ever received. It's no wonder it became her defining character trait.
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Jan 17, 2020 22:48
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Sab669 posted:Jasnah thinks she's smart/has potential, as indicated by taking her on as her ward, but chides Shallan for saying the first thing that comes to her mind rather than stopping to think of something actually clever. That's a good point, there might be a lot of Alethi cultural tolerance of her behavior coming through. Then again, I think at that point in the story most of the characters that have interacted with her have had either their own agenda or things going on which influences how much they tolerate her jokes... Certainly the ardent does, and the king's behavior changes a lot from day to day. That all said, those chapters also felt to me like a crawl. I've had that with other books by other authors too where I've been much more invested in one character that another. But there's also Kaladin chapters that went the same way.
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Jan 17, 2020 22:50
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While Kaladin consistently has the flashiest moments, I find his constant moping to be very, very annoying. I love his action scenes and hate any time he's grumpy (which is basically any time he's not fighting). Shallan tends to have an interesting mystery around her chapters, and most of the best worldbuilding occurs around her. I eat that poo poo up. Shallan herself is just the vehicle through which I deliver epic fantasy poo poo straight to my brain. And don't you loving talk about me or my son the Blackthorn ever again. Dalinar owns.
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Jan 17, 2020 22:54
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The only downside to Dalinar’s story arc is that you have to get to book 3 to finally start to understand who he is and why he’s treated how he is. The upside is that you then get to read the book 3 climax.
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Jan 17, 2020 23:13
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I didn't like when I was getting into the story and slammed into an interlude chapter
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Jan 17, 2020 23:14
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ConfusedUs posted:While Kaladin consistently has the flashiest moments, I find his constant moping to be very, very annoying. I love his action scenes and hate any time he's grumpy (which is basically any time he's not fighting). My impression is that people who have experienced depression connect really strongly with Kaladin, while people who don't think he's the annoying whiny guy, and wish he would get over it. Shallan... I'm not sure if you need to have experienced trauma to connect with her. I don't feel nearly as strongly large_gourd does, but I generally agree she's a frustrating character at the start, who starts to grow into a really great character over time and then jumps right into a new character dilemma that is even more tedious and far less believable than the first. Shallan has a lot of great moments and some solid development, but she regularly falls flat as a character IMO, definitely the weakest in the books. Dalinar is just the best. He is consistently fantastic even in book 1, but getting to book 3 obviously fleshes out his background and helps inform his behavior from the previous books.
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Jan 18, 2020 00:45
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Taffer posted:My impression is that people who have experienced depression connect really strongly with Kaladin, while people who don't think he's the annoying whiny guy, and wish he would get over it. I dislike kaladin’s moping and suffered depression for many many years. I dislike it because it reminds me how I felt back then
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Jan 18, 2020 03:22
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ConfusedUs posted:I dislike kaladin’s moping and suffered depression for many many years. I dislike it because it reminds me how I felt back then Well that's fair enough. I will say that by the third book, considering his character arc, it should have become a background part of his character instead of staying as one of his central characteristics. It fit very well in book 1 IMO, and even book 2, but definitely started to wear thin as his character went through more.
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Jan 18, 2020 03:42
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Taffer posted:Well that's fair enough. I will say that by the third book, considering his character arc, it should have become a background part of his character instead of staying as one of his central characteristics. It fit very well in book 1 IMO, and even book 2, but definitely started to wear thin as his character went through more. Yup, that about sums up how depression works.
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Jan 18, 2020 04:15
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Getting SA book 4 this year is so great, yet I still would have preferred The Lost Metal. Ever since Secret History, I can't help but think back to Ironeyes' comment from the first book that Wax is "doing his brother's work". I WANT TO KNOW WHAT WAX IS DOING THAT HELPS KELSIER'S PLANS!
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Jan 18, 2020 11:31
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large_gourd posted:It seems like this is just Sanderson's style of clever dialogue, I don't think it's really up to much. I think he struggles to write humour. He actually doesn't - what he DOES do is vary the types of humor he writes. I've been in laugh out loud stitches over things I've read in Bands of Mourning and Skyward. If you're curious why he wrote Shallan's particular brand of humor: Brandon Sanderson posted:Humor is more subjective than what we find heroic, tragic, or even beautiful. It also depends a great deal on audience buy-in and mood. This makes comedy one of the trickiest things to do in a book, because some people are just going to hate what you do. My approach has generally been a kind of shotgun blast--I try to include multiple different kinds of humor, stylized to the individual character. That way, if you don't find the humor itself funny, you at least learn what the character finds funny--and learn something about them.
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Jan 18, 2020 12:18
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I need a book or novella about the shenanigans Lopen gets up to. Wait scratch that, I need a novel detailing the Adventures of Lopen and Wayne. (I know, timelines and all that, but the Lopen says feh to timelines)
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Jan 18, 2020 21:28
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Iirc, Sanderson has said he wants to write a novella about Lopen and his claim to being an Alethi king or whatever he claimed offhand in one of the books.
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Jan 18, 2020 21:59
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Taffer posted:Well that's fair enough. I will say that by the third book, considering his character arc, it should have become a background part of his character instead of staying as one of his central characteristics. It fit very well in book 1 IMO, and even book 2, but definitely started to wear thin as his character went through more. Yeah, depression kind of sucks that way!
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Jan 19, 2020 04:33
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I'm not gonna pretend it's the same for everyone because it definitely isn't, but it's not uncommon for the symptoms to alleviate over time. As you get control over your life, form new relationships, gain a support network, and also just become more familiar with the triggers and causes. It can become something that lives in the background of your life instead of a controlling force. Again, I know for many it's far more severe, but in my own experience it's become far less of a driving force in my life. I think for the purposes of this story it would have fit for that to start becoming the case for Kaladin, but apparently that is not the goal of Sanderson for his arc. I don't think it's bad by any means, but from a story perspective it does become a drag on momentum and character progression.
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Jan 19, 2020 04:58
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Finished WOK a little while ago. Overall I think my thoughts on the book are pretty much in line with what I've seen from other people who more or less enjoyed the book but at pretty critical of aspects of it. The last 200 pages or so were really captivating due to the sudden onslaught of plot developments. Kaladin and Dalinar's storylines converging was excellent, and I feel like it happened at just the right time for me. Kaladin's story had been by far my favourite for most of the book but towards the end I was starting to find the progress in his chapters far too incremental and getting a bit tired of his ambivalence about the way forward. Dalinar's chapters, at the same time, were getting more and more interesting to me. So the two storylines sort of converged at a point where I was really invested in both sides, but with a feeling like things had to progress immediately and they really did. The setup for book 2 here is great, I really want to continue on and see what happens there. Even Shallan's story finally picked up some speed and my problems with her characterisation were not in focus. The revelations about Jasnah and Shallan not needing Soulcasters and what had actually happened when Kabsal tried to poison her were interesting turns, although I would have taken anything at this point, and that was supplemented with things like her being the one who killed her dad. I'd say I'm reasonably curious about what's going to happen next with her now, which is a big step up. Coming right after the Dalinar and Kaladin stuff, there was just a lot of momentum in the story at this point and every new plot point felt like it joined a stampede hurtling towards something. I don't think the book needed to be as long as it was. I tore through it, so I was never truly bored, but having the full picture of it now I can say that Kaladin's chapters spun their wheels a lot, which I really only started to realise towards the end. His interactions and growing relationships with his crew were just real enough to keep these chapters alive, though, so it never really sunk into 'why does this chapter exist' the same way Shallan's did, where the interactions were corny and stilted. I don't think Dalinar's story really had much bloat at all, developments happened there pretty regularly, and it was populated with a lot of shifting character dynamics which made every chapter feel like something was happening. Everything eventually played into the last act, so I don't think the 400 pages or so of Kaladin and Shallan in holding patterns was truly wasted. Obviously you get something out of the chapters - a bit of insight on the world, some character development - but it's interesting for me to think about the actual sum of the chapters in terms of what is lost by including material which, while it adds something, isn't really necessary. Since this is a 10 book series, maybe in the overall outline all of it is really 100% necessary in a way that can't be seen from this chunk of it. It's a really mixed bag. On the one hand, I like how expansive the book is and all the extraneous details and interludes. On the other, I wish they were better so that I wasn't rushing through them to get back to the plot. The characterisation was pretty unoriginal overall. I was kind of disappointed the direction Sadeas went, actually. I think it would have been more interesting to keep him and Dalinar as allies against another force rather than doing the reverse twist of having him be as lovely as he first appeared and that's all there is to it. Kaladin and Dalinar have their minor faults, but are solidly heroic. There aren't really any characters who I changed my perception of throughout the book, they all feel a bit static. Sadeas changed into a more nuanced kind of bastard and then just changed back to full bastard as first presented. I suppose Kabsal turned out to be an assassin, but he was pretty minor and then he uh, immediately died. I hear Words of Radiance is a bit better than this. It almost doesn't need to be in order for me to continue because I think I can just happily read this kind of thing. It's written in a functional kind of way that I think I could pick it up on the train or in spare moments here and there and get through it pretty fast and enjoy building the scenes out in my head, daydreaming about the world it is set in. I'll take a break though and read something else. Probably another fantasy book. This was my first epic fantasy book like this, so I want to try a different author where the writing quality is a bit higher and see how I feel about that. Then in a month or two, probably grab Words of Radiance. large_gourd fucked around with this message at 15:08 on Jan 19, 2020 |
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Jan 19, 2020 15:01
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